Manchester ship canal railway

[Mol_PMB]

21 hours ago, 65179 said:

I'm not sure about the (parrot) warflat,  but is it one of the bogie bolster conversions?

 

Regards

Simon

I didn't mind your reference to the Parrot :-)

Though I do confess that the one in the background of the photo I posted previously appears to be a BR example and therefore is an ex-Parrot...

 

This is the MSC Railway thread and they are referred to as Parrots in several places in the MSC Railways book by Don Thorpe, who worked his life on the MSC Railways.

The MSC had 25 of them, purchased in two batches from the Disposal Board in the 1920s. I imagine they arrived in the remains of their WWI livery including the Parrot branding, so perhaps the name stuck in Manchester if not elsewhere.

They reprised their original role in WWII handling American army vehicles:

(Photo from Don Thorpe's book)

 

 

 

 

[hmrspaul]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks Paul, much appreciated.

The MSC Railway did call them Parrots  (they were fitted with bolsters), I've modelled one of the MSC examples.

 

To me, there's some sense in Parrots and Macaws being similar vehicles. The Loriot ought to be too, really!

 

That is very nice, as with all your modelling.

 

I don't know how many were built in WW1 but it is interesting that MSC continued the military name. Greg Martin - as referred to by Mark will have more information on them. Did MSC get some direct at the end of hostilities in WW1?

The LMS quite clearly didn't call them Parrot right from their purchase by the MR and CR and re-use in 1924. The LMS diagram is labelled MR but the note says the 412 includes Northern Division ones, which I assume are the CR ones. These had fixed bolsters. The LNWR also donated 25 to the LMS, they had removeable bolsters, so different. Bachy is correct with the use of the term Parrot but it is just annoying that the military re-used PARROT for an utterly different wagon type in WW2 when they were building more Warflats - both rivetted as the WW1 period ones and then welded. And it is more complex because the first of the WW2 diagrams call the Warflats USAFLAT and USACASE case wagons (despite the fitting of jacks and I cannot easily see why two diagrams were issued). 

 

That lovely photo is clearly a BR wagon - the tare is very BR. What I cannot remember is whether BR converted any of the WW2 ones to bolster wagons or if they all remained as FLAT WC. 

 

And I have a more than passing interest in parrots so yes, I like the use of Macaw, Loriot etc (My life list is 80 species in the wild and hopefully some more in March). 

 

And thanks for the info on the MSC ones. 

 

Paul

 

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks Paul.

Don Thorpe writes:

"In later years the largest wagons were the ex-War Department 45 ton bogie bolsters, called 'Parrots' acquired from the Disposal Board in 1923 and 1927. The first batch, five in number, was given Manchester Ship Canal numbers 2252 to 2257* and cost £350 each. They were delovered on 7th June 1923. The next batch of 'Parrots' arrived on 22nd February 1927. There were twenty in this batch and they were numbered 2705 to 2724."

[* this implies six rather than five]

 

In the caption to this photo he writes:

'Ex-War Department bogie bolster, MSC No.2709, in use as a track carrier for the Resident Engineer's Department. The wagon was one of those bought from the Disposal Board in 1927 which were code-named 'Parrots'.

 

They also crop up in the background of several other photos, and in several aerial photos of the MSC yards. For example:

 

All these appear to have had the jacks removed, and they all have bolsters.

 

Spot the Parrots here...

 

[Mol_PMB]

A few more of my MSC Railway related slide purchases:

 

A train of Cornflakes in Trafford Park:

Former Irlam steelworks diesels awaiting scrapping in Trafford Park:

Dereliction at Mode Wheel, 1980s:

And perhaps most interesting, the stabling point at Latchford in the 1960s:

 

 

 

[montyburns56]

The stabling point at Latchford would make for a nice diorama with the bridge pictured on the backscene.

[Mol_PMB]

23 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

The stabling point at Latchford would make for a nice diorama with the bridge pictured on the backscene.

Indeed.

 

An earlier 1930s view in the aerial photo here:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPR000292

 

Looking at the old maps it is frustratingly right on the edge between two!

https://maps.nls.uk/view/126524363

https://maps.nls.uk/view/126524402

 

I have one other railway photo here, and I'm afraid I can't remember where it came from. No doubt the copyright police will tell me once they have given me a good beating; here it is:

At first I wondered if they were taken on the same occasion, but I'm not so sure. The oil drum and general detritus are positioned differently.

 

It would make a good diorama looking this way too!

 

[Sandhole]

23 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

A few more of my MSC Railway related slide purchases:

 

A train of Cornflakes in Trafford Park:

Former Irlam steelworks diesels awaiting scrapping in Trafford Park:

Dereliction at Mode Wheel, 1980s:

And perhaps most interesting, the stabling point at Latchford in the 1960s:

 

 

 

The cornflake train was a favourite. I have shots of the Sentinel pair hauling that and of a solo Hudswell in the snow too.
I never managed to get shots of the 'liner train down Barton Dock Road, that was the one that got away.
The tyres on the wheels of those Irlam diesels look extremely thin! 
I have no idea who made those, I know Yorkshire Engine Co delivered some gorgeous big Saddle Tanks. Those two don't look like YE products.
Great set of shots.
Regards,
Chris.

[DavidLong]

7 hours ago, Sandhole said:

The tyres on the wheels of those Irlam diesels look extremely thin! 
I have no idea who made those, I know Yorkshire Engine Co delivered some gorgeous big Saddle Tanks. Those two don't look like YE products.
Great set of shots.
Regards,
Chris.

North British. It does say on the original Flickr photo but I guessed that they might be as they look like stretched versions of the ones that they built for BR.

 

David

[Michael Edge]

North British 440hp 0-6-0DH, from the same family as the BR 330hp D2900 - and yes we do a kit for this loco ( only in 4mm at the moment).

[br2975]

On 16/04/2021 at 21:29, Mol_PMB said:

I recently bought some original medium-format negatives on ebay and thought I would share the images here.

I don't know the original photographer I'm afraid; I think they date from the mid-1970s.

They feature a railtour in Trafford Park with 4002 and a fairly short rake of five steel highs. 

Well worth a close look for the variety of ladders used for getting in and out of the wagons, and the children messing around with one of them or wandering over the track.

There are some great classic gricer outfits and some impressive sideburns!

 

From an operational point of view, this train had no continuous brakes or indeed any brakes operable from within the train - the highs are vac-fitted but the loco only has air brakes.

There are several variants of steel high: two have Morton brakes and hence a tiebar between the axleboxes, one of these has the later body variant with a rib along the bottom of the sides and no curb rail. Two types of axleboxes are visible, one wagon has odd wheelsets with different axleboxes at each end of the wagon. Two of the wagons have reinforced doors while the others do not. And of course they all have different lettering styles.

 

 

 

I recently acquired this image from a contact, which appears to be of the same 'jolly boys outing' and which he tells me was organised by the Branch Line Society and ran in 1978.

.

The photo sent by my friend was to illustrate how the wagonloads of enthusiasts were actually 'pole shunted' at one point by 4002.

.

Unfortunately, I've no knowledge of the provenance of this image, and if there is any furore, I shall happily remove it.

 

[montyburns56]

18 hours ago, br2975 said:

 

I recently acquired this image from a contact, which appears to be of the same 'jolly boys outing' and which he tells me was organised by the Branch Line Society and ran in 1978.

.

The photo sent by my friend was to illustrate how the wagonloads of enthusiasts were actually 'pole shunted' at one point by 4002.

.

Unfortunately, I've no knowledge of the provenance of this image, and if there is any furore, I shall happily remove it.

 

 

That picture looks like it came a gallery on the Branch Line Society website called In And Around Manchester in 1977 although it seems that the BLS have now removed it for some reason. I'm glad that I saved them as it had some fantastic pictures in it!

 

[43110andyb]

Is that Michael Foote in the front wagon 

[peanuts]

On 15/01/2022 at 15:29, Mol_PMB said:

Although the farmers aren't my core interest at all, I do find it fascinating that the railway's 'handbook of stations' would list them individually, and give some details of the traffic to and from the farms. The steelworks must have had hundreds of wagons in and out every day, yet the farmers with the odd few sacks every fortnight all get named individually. It's also interesting that there are apparently some family farming dynasties - the Blundells, Dandys and Mawdsleys.

from living in the Cadishead/Irlam area whilst i worked Glazebrook box for a good ten years around the millennium  i can assure you many of those dynasties still exist my children attended local schools with many a mawdsley  or a pitchfork .and as for the odd sack comment irlam was the collection point for produce from the farms across chat moss and could get very very busy at harvest time with outgoing produce tho most of the land now appears to be given over to growing of lawn turn now 

[Michael Hodgson]

On 12/02/2022 at 00:32, br2975 said:

 

 

 

 

Health & Safety would have apoplexy if you suggested doing that with passengers in coal trucks today.

I'd love to see the safety case for it !

The photographer probably shouldn't have been on the footplate either.

[Mol_PMB]

42 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Health & Safety would have apoplexy if you suggested doing that with passengers in coal trucks today.

I'd love to see the safety case for it !

The photographer probably shouldn't have been on the footplate either.

 

Not to mention the safe use of ladders and adequate supervision of young children...

https://flic.kr/p/2kTgfZg

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

Not to mention the safe use of ladders and adequate supervision of young children...

https://flic.kr/p/2kTgfZg

 

It's probably safer than propping the door and using a wheelbarrow to load the children !

[br2975]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Health & Safety would have apoplexy if you suggested doing that with passengers in coal trucks today.

I'd love to see the safety case for it !

The photographer probably shouldn't have been on the footplate either.

A good way to compare H&S of today, and what we did 'back then' is possibly contained in a quote from Napoleon Bonaparte;

.

“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Edited February 14, 2022 by br2975

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, br2975 said:

A good way to compare H&S of today, and what we did 'back then' is possibly contained in a quote from Napoleon Bonaparte;

.

“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

It is certainly fair comment that it is unreasonable and inappropriate to apply modern standards to historical situations.

 

For example current morality is to view British imperialism and colonialisation as a bad thing, but at the time the general opinion was that we were bringing Christian salvation to those poor ignorant savages damned for all eternity for worshipping false gods.  Of course those who weren't directly involved didn't have much idea of what was actually happpening in practice.  We might condemn today's islamist extremists as barbaric yet their rationale is not so very different.

As for slavery, I don't hear much condemnation of what the Romans or many other advanced (for their time) civilisations did to those they conquered - the spoils of war were pretty much accepted custom and practice worldwide, and it certainly gave you good reason to fight for your King and country.  Maybe all the statues of Julius Caesar had already been shoved into the harbour?  And perhaps it was only the extreme atrocities committed by Axis forces in the 1940s which has steered Western society today more towards our current values? 

What used to be acceptable or at least tolerated in the way of safety at work is more understandable if you think in terms of a society where jobs had to be done so children were sent up chimneys.  When obviously sensible safety rules were deliberately broken, it was because that was the quickest and most practical way to get the work done.  The main reason people took jobs on the railways at all was because the conditions and remuneration were so much better than they could find in agriculture or our dark satanic mills.

 

[br2975]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

As for slavery, I don't hear much condemnation of what the Romans or many other advanced (for their time) civilisations did to those they conquered - the spoils of war were pretty much accepted custom and practice worldwide, and it certainly gave you good reason to fight for your King and country.  Maybe all the statues of Julius Caesar had already been shoved into the harbour? 

Steps onto the current 'slavery' soapbox, and ducks.

.

As a Welshman, should I protest at the the Roman invasion of my homeland, and the subsequent pillaging, especially Clogau gold, and the naieve natives ?

 

Should I complain about the Norman conquest - many streets in the Riverside area of Cardiff are still named after Norman noblemen who seized local lands, such as Beauchamp, Plantagenet, Despenser, and  de Clare.

.

Following the Normans, the Welsh were brutally subjugated by Edward Longshanks and the reminders of his iron grip on the Principality, designed and built by James of St. George still stand at places such as  Beaumaris, Conwy, Caernarvon and Harlech.....should we follow recent precedent, and tear those reminders down ?

.

It was many years before Wales was invaded and subjugated again, when the burgers and city fathers of Liverpool and Birmingham displaced small holders and villagers, in order to flood the valleys of mid and north wales.

.

Meanwhile, further south, the valleys were pillaged by the 'saes' (English) ironmasters and coal owners, and the populace subjected to the infamous 'Tommy Shops' - living as virtual slaves, and destined to die young.

.

Am I bitter ?, do I seek revenge ? do I seek compensation ? Do I look to tear down Longshank's Harlech Castle, rip out the Roman remains at Caerleon, or set fire to Crawshay's Cyfarthfa castle ?

No

I accept it happened in the past, it is that which has made Wales what it is today; it is history.

.

"The past is a different country, they do things different there"

Edited February 14, 2022 by br2975

[Mol_PMB]

None of the above few posts are relevant to the Manchester Ship Canal Railway. Please desist!

[br2975]

Some more images obtained from a well known online auction site.

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4001 is seen at Trafford Park in 1977

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HE 740 is seen at Mode Wheel, 15th. April, 1963.

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HE778/1902 at Mode Wheel 25th. April, 1964.

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K 5412/1927 at Mode Wheel , 1st. July, 1962

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K 423/1927 at Elesmere Port, 13th. April, 1963

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Mode wheel, 25th. April 1964

[Mol_PMB]

Absolutely Superb! Many thanks for posting those.

Especially the colour photo of Kitson 80, which is immensely useful for my current loco build project of that very loco!

[sir douglas]

HE 740 was a 3'6" gauge that went to Ghana, it should be HC 740

 

Kitson 423 should be 5423

Edited February 15, 2022 by sir douglas

[Mol_PMB]

36 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

HE 740 was a 3'6" gauge that went to Ghana, but i cant find the proper works number for No39

 

Kitson 423 should be 5423

I think 740 is correct but it should be HC not HE. Agreed about the K, elsewhere I have seen a similar error misreading K5 for KS and claiming it was a Kerr Stuart! 

Super photos though, colour pics of the MSC kettles in service are very rare and the image of 80 is really inspiring for my model. Black, but just how many shades of black! It will be a real challenge to reproduce that. 

[sir douglas]

i just realised what didnt add up and corrected it, coincidentally at the same time as you were typing, im saying this just in case someone thinks i corrected my post after yours