Driving standards

[TheQ]

Was that the cyclist on cannabis ?  Another couple of the lycra brigade out this morning, cars had dipped headlights on, cyclists in matt black, no lights.  Quite happy to swerve out in front of cars on the duel carriageway to pass parked vehicles, wonder if they would do that in a car ?

er no you don't need a driving licence for a cyclist ...

[JDW]

At this year's UK Bus Driver of the Year final in Blackpool (held at the beginning of September) one of the "tests" was to pass a cycle at exactly 1.5 metres, since this is one of the big things at the minute and the organisers like to be topical.  Of course, its not possible to do it whilst moving, and it had as much to do with raising awareness as anything.  The test bicycle was parked parallel to the side of the road, the driver had to stop the bus alongside, exactly 1.5 metres away from a set part (the pedal if I remember right), which was then measured with a high-tech long stick.  Penalty points for being too close or too far away...

 

A few months back, I had a very near miss with a cyclist.  Accelerating from a roundabout on a busy dual carriageway, a few hundred yards down the road there is a bus layby, immediately followed by a pedestrian crossing and a junction.  I approached, straddling both lanes to pass a car half on the pavement, saw the cyclist approach the give way line on the left, he looked at me as I was moving back fully to lane 1, and I can only think that he thought I was going to stop at the bus stop.  Fair, in that it is a well used stop, and probably more buses stop than don't. But I wasn't, and passed the layby at around 35mph... by this time, traffic was starting to pass me in lane 2, he carried on out into lane 1, despite a quick tap of the horn to warn him, followed by a much longer blast, and I was left to perform a professional demonstration of how to avoid hitting a cyclist whilst simultaneously not injuring your passengers  . 

As it turned out, traffic in lane 2 had seen what was happening and reacted - see, there are some good drivers out there still - by hanging back to leave me space.  As it was, I hadn't realised that until it was too late, and generally its best to either brake or swerve, both at once means a much higher risk of passenger injury, so I came to a stop with him against the kerb, and almost touching the door of the bus, whereupon he shouted lots of things which I took to mean "thank you for not killing me" and other similar messages.  In fact, he was so thankful, he even banged on the side windows as I drove away and shouted words of praise for my skillful driving loud enough that all my passengers could hear his thanks.  

 

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, a couple of questions went through my mind afterwards.  One is "was I too slow to realise that lane 2 was empty?" - Bearing in mind that I thought I was going to hit him, and that a couple of seconds earlier I'd looked in the mirror, had cars ready to accelerate past, and was expecting them to be alongside me, I don't really think so.  Nonetheless, it was on my mind afterwards.  the whole incident only lasted a couple of seconds, my attention was on him, not looking away to check mirrors.  But as a professional, you ask yourself these things.  "Could I have done this, should I have done that, how could I have reacted better?"  Likewise, as I moved back to lane 1, I gave 2 flashes of my left indicator.  Might this have been the cause?  I doubt it, not in itself, but it might have contributed to him initially thinking I'd stop in the layby.  

 

It might interest some of you to know that a couple of minutes later, a message pinged up on my ticket machine to ask if I was OK and had I been involved in an RTC, because our monitoring software had registered a heavy stop from a [relatively] high speed... 

[MJI]

Probably mainly down to poor maintenance, i.e. not getting things fixed when needed. Sometimes people ignore the warning messages on the dash when the car is still running apparently okay. Likewise, many drivers don't understand they are driving a complex piece of machinery and don't look out for the obvious signs that something is wrong. "Black smoke, what black smoke?". "The red light said stop, but I waited until I got home."

 

Of course, as we live in an increasingly "it's someone else's fault"  society, people don't see the need to look after their property, preferring to blame the manufacturer/retailer when it goes wrong. 

 

The pollution story is a new one on me, although I had read that it applied to the Toyota Prius Hybrid, owing to the pollution involved in mining and transporting the materials for the batteries as well as manufacturing them.

 

It seems that people and the media now see the motor industry as rather an easy target since  VAG (and others) created the USA emission scandal.  I wonder how polluting is the total manufacturing process of all the other consumer goods people like to enjoy, especially those made in India and China?

 

Quite often the red light does not mean stop now, but something may be wrong.

 

So they get ignored.

 

Oil pressure out is instant stop now. Confused fuelling is not.

[JDW]

Quite often the red light does not mean stop now, but something may be wrong.

 

So they get ignored.

 

Oil pressure out is instant stop now. Confused fuelling is not.

 

I'd have said that more often than not, the red light DOES need you to stop because something IS wrong - red=serious, yellow=advisory/warning.

- Red lights tend to be things like brakes or oil, which need fairly immediate attention.  

- Yellow tends to be less serious things like engine management lights, for example a faulty sensor, which can be checked over next week at a garage.

[ejstubbs]

In the UK

"You are permitted to straddle or cross a continuous solid white line to enter a side road or property, to manoeuvre round a stationary vehicle blocking your side of the road, to overtake a cyclists, horse or a road works vehicle moving at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less. Crossing double white lines where the line closest to you is solid is illegal outside of the circumstances described above."

 

Trouble is many cyclists are doing 15mph, which to overtake in a car is illegal, if you go over the line, but the roads are not wide enough for the 1.5 meters recommended space. Therefore if you obay the law you get huge holdups...

 

Presumably there was a reason why the 10mph figure was at one time believed to make sense.  It would suggest that anything above 10mph is regarded as being a reasonable speed to travel at for a period of time.  That's fairly obviously unrealistic these days - but then again perhaps that says more about generally accepted attitudes than anything else.

 

I would argue that cyclists, just like tractors, combine harvesters and the like, should obey Highway Code rule 169:

 

Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.

 

And I say this as someone who quite regularly rides a bike on the road - and yes, if I think I'm causing a tailback then I do pull over where it is safe to do so to let the traffic pass.  Apparently, though, the official view is that rule 169 does not apply to cyclists.  I don't know whether this is because of some nit-picking interpretation of the use of the word "driving", or something else.  The rule is in the general "Using the road" section of the code, rather than one of the sections aimed at specific types of road user, so it can't be that.  Even if rule 169 doesn't apply, I'd argue that the bit in rule 168 about not obstructing drivers who wish to pass could be argued to apply.  And, of course, there are also rules about being considerate to other road users, specifically rule 147.  Sticking obdurately to the middle of the lane at 20mph when simply slowing down a little would make it easier for a faster vehicle to pass is not showing consideration (especially if your only reason is because you're trying to set a better time on Strava - speaking of which: whatever happened to the laws about time trails on public roads?)

 

I also think that rule 169 should be observed by vehicles which have to observe lower speed limits than other road users, regardless of whether they could go faster if they were allowed to - such as lorries and caravans.  (Actually, tractors also fall in to that category - AIUI they are subject to a 25mph limit.  I don't know whether they can go faster - I suspect some modern ones could quite easily.)

Edited October 25, 2017 by ejstubbs

[TheQ]

The tractor maximum speed limit went from 20 to 25mph in March 2015.

 There is however another class of what looks like a tractor and they are huge and seem to do 50mph.

[MJI]

I'd have said that more often than not, the red light DOES need you to stop because something IS wrong - red=serious, yellow=advisory/warning.

- Red lights tend to be things like brakes or oil, which need fairly immediate attention.  

- Yellow tends to be less serious things like engine management lights, for example a faulty sensor, which can be checked over next week at a garage.

 

 

I have come across reds being non serious so tend to read the manuals first so I know what they are.

 

My car had a red light on for a slipped off connector on a hydraulic anti roll bar control unit. Only must stop is fluid loss and it was not that.

[MJI]

The tractor maximum speed limit went from 20 to 25mph in March 2015.

 There is however another class of what looks like a tractor and they are huge and seem to do 50mph.

 

Doesn't stop the quicker tractors from passing the slightly slower ones. Even if they annoy cars wanting to pass both.

[petethemole]

Imagine coming up behind this lot

http://c3018352.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/image-12456_view.jpg

[Happy Hippo]

I have come across reds being non serious so tend to read the manuals first so I know what they are.

 

My car had a red light on for a slipped off connector on a hydraulic anti roll bar control unit. Only must stop is fluid loss and it was not that.

The red light for seat belt off is not going to affect the car, but might affect your driving licence. Likewise the brake warning sign might only be for a not fully released handbrake won't cause you any undue problems apart from retarded acceleration and a horrible burning smell after a few miles.

 

As you say, it does pay to know what the lights mean and how to safely and sensibly act when any dashboard warning is illuminated.

 

Fwiw the most amusing sights are when a gobby bellend on a bike meets his counterpart in a car. Then you can see that they are one and the same.

[JDW]

The red light for seat belt off is not going to affect the car, but might affect your driving licence. Likewise the brake warning sign might only be for a not fully released handbrake won't cause you any undue problems apart from retarded acceleration and a horrible burning smell after a few miles.

 

As you say, it does pay to know what the lights mean and how to safely and sensibly act when any dashboard warning is illuminated.

 

Fwiw the most amusing sights are when a gobby bellend on a bike meets his counterpart in a car. Then you can see that they are one and the same.

 

Exactly, and in many cases people simply don't know how to react or understand what things mean, be it lights on the dash, road signs, etc etc...

 

As for the red handbrake light, don't forget (I'm not saying you in particular, HH, but in general, as many people don't realise it) that if the "handbrake light" is on whilst driving, it doesn't neccessarily mean the handbrake is on, it can indicate other brake problems... Often misunderstood!

[Horsetan]

The Citroen has lots of red lights on the instrument display, including one marked, funnily enough, "STOP"

[njee20]

In the UK

"You are permitted to straddle or cross a continuous solid white line to enter a side road or property, to manoeuvre round a stationary vehicle blocking your side of the road, to overtake a cyclists, horse or a road works vehicle moving at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less. Crossing double white lines where the line closest to you is solid is illegal outside of the circumstances described above."

 

Trouble is many cyclists are doing 15mph, which to overtake in a car is illegal, if you go over the line, but the roads are not wide enough for the 1.5 meters recommended space. Therefore if you obay the law you get huge holdups...

 

Crossing the white line outside of the above is a 3point penalty +£60 fine (12 points= loss of licence)

 

oh the police here were wanting a 1.5metre gap in a 30mph zone...

 

But if a road is wide enough to have a solid (or indeed any) white line it's also wide enough to give 1.5m of space. There will, of course, be country lanes where leaving 1.5m of space is difficult, but that's a very strained argument though, that's not what the police are policing.

 

Why shouldn't you give a 1.5m gap regardless of speed limit? There's not necessarily an inherent link between road width and speed limit, and whilst being passed by a car 30cm away is more daunting if they're doing 50mph more than you it's still quite unpleasant at 20mph more.

 

Are you just trying to justify to yourself why it's ok to squeeze past cyclists?

 

 

Presumably there was a reason why the 10mph figure was at one time believed to make sense.  It would suggest that anything above 10mph is regarded as being a reasonable speed to travel at for a period of time.  That's fairly obviously unrealistic these days - but then again perhaps that says more about generally accepted attitudes than anything else.

Solid white lines are there for a reason, ie it's not safe to overtake. If someone is doing 10mph you can probably (in the eyes of the law at least) 'nip' past quickly without jeopardising an unseen oncoming vehicle. I don't think anyone's suggesting 10mph is a reasonable speed. If they're doing 20mph, all things being equal, it takes twice as long to perform the manoeuvre.

 

It's a curious psychology around cycling, people see a cyclist and they have to get past. It's not uncommon to be overtaken by someone already braking for the line of traffic they're about to join. You do see stupid cyclists, you also see stupid pedestrians, motorcyclists, horse riders and drivers. All bar the latter are extremely vulnerable though.

 

JDW's example is an interesting one, a (no doubt very unpleasant) incident with a cyclist, but it was "a few months ago", when I think about how many times whilst driving I've been put at risk or had to take evasive action to avoid other motor vehicles I certainly don't have to go back a few months!

Edited October 25, 2017 by njee20

[TheQ]

You missed the point, if there is a double white line ( or single ) and the cyclist is doing more than 10 mph you cannot overtake because 1.5 metres + car width is more than any lane width I've ever seen.

 

There are roads where they have joined the double whites on the corners to include some straights, where it would be quite safe to overtake if the cycle were doing 15 mph but not a car doing 50mph. There are roads where double white go on for mile after mile of 50 or 60 mph road. It is not surprising that some driver's get frustrated getting stuck behind cyclists for miles.

Me I'm more likely to be overtaking ( or passing in the opposite direction) horses round here, they always get a full lane clearance if possible or I stop and let them pass me the other way.

 

The main problem I have with cyclists ( or pedestrians) at the moment, is out in the countryside is the super bright white LED headlight pointing so high it blinds me driving the other way.

[Gwiwer]

My attention has been directed to a stunning satnav-over-common sense failure in St. Ives, Cornwall, where a coach passed signs indicating 7' 0" width limit ( a coach is around 8' 3" these days), Unsuitable For Large Vehicles and No Through Road.

http://www.itv.com/…/coach-freed-after-12-hours-of-being-s…/

[Coryton]

The main problem I have with cyclists ( or pedestrians) at the moment, is out in the countryside is the super bright white LED headlight pointing so high it blinds me driving the other way.

 

Whereas in cities they have streetlights so cycles don't actually need lights...apparently...

 

(OK so the majority of cyclists I see after dark do have lights...but I find it surprising how many don't, especially the ones dressed in black... And I'd have thought that Deliveroo cyclists would spend enough time on their bikes that they might feel it a worthwhile investment).

[rembrow]

I once was told that building a car produces as much pollution as the car on average yearly mileages would produce in emissions over 50 years, so scrapping a car is the worst possible thing for the environment. I have noticed of late that a LOT of newer cars are leaving black and blue exhaust trails out on the roads; far more than I ever remember vehicles leaving. Is it down to bad designs that game the testing system at the expense of real world emissions or just too many people these days treat their car as maintenance free?

I suspect that part of the reason for the exhaust trails is due to the use of self cleaning particle filters in diesel cars. The filter is there to remove harmful emissions in the diesel exhaust, however the filter is cleaned by periodically burning off the accumulated soot at high temperature while driving. If you do a lot of short distance driving, the system cannot clean itself automatically and you get a dashboard warning when the filter is full. The manual advises that you should continue driving but ensure you drive for a continuous period at over 2000 revs to activate the filter cleaning process. These cleans must send soot out on to the carriageway. I've only had the dashboard warning come on once and made sure I was on a rural dual carriageway before starting the cleaning. Getting the revs above 2000 for several minutes meant changing from auto to semi automatic.

[Joseph_Pestell]

First trip today (SWMBO to Heathrow) on the M3 since it has been "widened" to four lanes (i.e. a fourth lane where the hard shoulder should be).

 

Months of disruption and for what? The numpties that used to hog lane 2 now hog lane 3 instead.

[njee20]

You missed the point, if there is a double white line ( or single ) and the cyclist is doing more than 10 mph you cannot overtake because 1.5 metres + car width is more than any lane width I've ever seen.

Correct, so you wait, as you would with any vehicle, it’s rarely that far.

 

I don’t understand the horse thing, surely that’s infinitely more inconvenient?

 

Totally agree on lights though, very annoying. Cars at the moment with badly adjusted lights too, come spring it’s better, people have got them sorted over winter!

[Arthur]

The tractor maximum speed limit went from 20 to 25mph in March 2015.

 There is however another class of what looks like a tractor and they are huge and seem to do 50mph.

So called ‘High Speed’ tractors can be driven at 40mph on UK roads.

 

To qualify they, and any trailers they tow, must meet any relevant HGV standards. This includes having full suspension, dual line air brakes, appropriate tyres and lighting.

 

Currently ony two models comply, the JCB Fastrac and the Mercedes Unimog.

 

.

[JDW]

The Citroen has lots of red lights on the instrument display, including one marked, funnily enough, "STOP"

Yeah, lots of our buses have those too.  But if its a Volvo B10, we usually ignore it, they're built like tanks and just keep going anyway 

 

 

But if a road is wide enough to have a solid (or indeed any) white line it's also wide enough to give 1.5m of space. There will, of course, be country lanes where leaving 1.5m of space is difficult, but that's a very strained argument though, that's not what the police are policing.

 

Why shouldn't you give a 1.5m gap regardless of speed limit? There's not necessarily an inherent link between road width and speed limit, and whilst being passed by a car 30cm away is more daunting if they're doing 50mph more than you it's still quite unpleasant at 20mph more.

 

Are you just trying to justify to yourself why it's ok to squeeze past cyclists?

 

 

Solid white lines are there for a reason, ie it's not safe to overtake. If someone is doing 10mph you can probably (in the eyes of the law at least) 'nip' past quickly without jeopardising an unseen oncoming vehicle. I don't think anyone's suggesting 10mph is a reasonable speed. If they're doing 20mph, all things being equal, it takes twice as long to perform the manoeuvre.

 

It's a curious psychology around cycling, people see a cyclist and they have to get past. It's not uncommon to be overtaken by someone already braking for the line of traffic they're about to join. You do see stupid cyclists, you also see stupid pedestrians, motorcyclists, horse riders and drivers. All bar the latter are extremely vulnerable though.

 

JDW's example is an interesting one, a (no doubt very unpleasant) incident with a cyclist, but it was "a few months ago", when I think about how many times whilst driving I've been put at risk or had to take evasive action to avoid other motor vehicles I certainly don't have to go back a few months!

 

If I remembered or made a mental note of every cyclist, pedestrian and driver who caused me a difficulty, or was incompetent, annoying, poorly trained, etc etc etc, I'd never have time to think about anything else!  That was just a particularly bad one - one in which it wasn't so much me thinking to myself "that was stupid", more that I disn't think I was going to stop before the point of collision, and for a couple of seconds he was heading for my windscreen, it had as much to do with luck as skill that I missed him.  In the majority of cases we mention here, things are foolish, annoying or some such, or are things that could have developed into a much worse scenario, rather than "I'm not going to be stopping in time", at which point I was in "damage limitation" mode rather than "collision avoidance" mode.

 

Funnily enough I had another experience with a cyclist, on my way to work in my car this time, a week or two later.  I was following him, on a wide-ish road, with traffic islands.  The car in front of me passed safely, I hung back as there was an island, then as we passed, he moved out to his right slightly, at the point where I was going to start to overtake him.  He hadn't looked over his shoulder, I tapped the horn, and got a gesture in return.  He caught me up at the next roundabout, pulled alongside.  He was a little frustrated, and told me he'd been moving out to pass a pothole.  Sensible.  I explained out that I didn't think he'd seen me, and sounded a warning to him, as I didn't know his intention, and suggested he make a clearer gesture of looking over his shoulder in future, so car drivers knew he was aware of them.  Slightly caught off guard, he agreed that might be a good idea, apologised for his gesture, and rode off!     

 

You missed the point, if there is a double white line ( or single ) and the cyclist is doing more than 10 mph you cannot overtake because 1.5 metres + car width is more than any lane width I've ever seen.

 

There are roads where they have joined the double whites on the corners to include some straights, where it would be quite safe to overtake if the cycle were doing 15 mph but not a car doing 50mph. There are roads where double white go on for mile after mile of 50 or 60 mph road. It is not surprising that some driver's get frustrated getting stuck behind cyclists for miles.

Me I'm more likely to be overtaking ( or passing in the opposite direction) horses round here, they always get a full lane clearance if possible or I stop and let them pass me the other way.

 

The main problem I have with cyclists ( or pedestrians) at the moment, is out in the countryside is the super bright white LED headlight pointing so high it blinds me driving the other way.

 

I think there's a big problem with the "if the cycle is doing 10 mph" rule, in that sometimes you have a clear view, and can see you can pass just as safely as if you were passing a parked car, sometimes you have to wait, and sometimes it would be just as safe to overtake if the cyclist were doing 20, but as we see a lot, many people just don't have the skills or good judgement needed to decide properly.  Of course, it depends on the vehicle too, in my car I can easily nip by a slow cyclist in a safe place.  If I'm at work, I need much more room to do so, and might indeed have to wait right until the double white lines end, so there's never going to be a one-rule-fits-all solution.

[JDW]

My attention has been directed to a stunning satnav-over-common sense failure in St. Ives, Cornwall, where a coach passed signs indicating 7' 0" width limit ( a coach is around 8' 3" these days), Unsuitable For Large Vehicles and No Through Road.

 

http://www.itv.com/…/coach-freed-after-12-hours-of-being-s…/

 

More pics here: http://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwalls-biggest-sat-nav-fail-676882

That's a LOT of damage!  And a big repair bill!  We've all made mistakes, and I've found myself on roads that look too tight before (but knew I could get through, as I'd planned ahead!) but there is definitely a point where you ask yourself whether you keep going, try to reverse, or what.  Often, trying to reverse, in the dark (this happened at 2100 it says) seems like a worse option, if you're expecting the road to improve.  I'd like to say I wouldn't have gotten where he did, but that's not to say I won't screw up just as badly one day myself - all it takes is to miss one sign... !

[Coryton]

More pics here: http://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwalls-biggest-sat-nav-fail-676882

That's a LOT of damage!  And a big repair bill!  We've all made mistakes, and I've found myself on roads that look too tight before (but knew I could get through, as I'd planned ahead!) but there is definitely a point where you ask yourself whether you keep going, try to reverse, or what.  Often, trying to reverse, in the dark (this happened at 2100 it says) seems like a worse option, if you're expecting the road to improve.  I'd like to say I wouldn't have gotten where he did, but that's not to say I won't screw up just as badly one day myself - all it takes is to miss one sign... !

 

I like the comment lower down on that page: "You can’t move satellites but there needs to be some road narrowing feature..."

 

I'm not sure whoever wrote that understands how GPS works.

 

I had a interesting experience once on a rail replacement coach that was sent down lanes that were a bit on the narrow side. By day apparently it had been OK, but this was after it got dark and the driver had an encounter with a hedge leaving the front wing mirror hanging from its wires.

 

It wasn't going to go back in, and for some reason the connector wouldn't undo, leaving the only option to cut it off before it dropped off.

 

This was a three handed job, and as I was sitting at the front I ended up as the assistant leaning out of the door holding the mirror. One of the more unusual experiences I've had on public transport.

 

It might have been a good idea to turn the power off first though - neither of us thought of that.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Coryton

[JDW]

I like the comment lower down on that page: "You can’t move satellites but there needs to be some road narrowing feature..."

 

I'm not sure whoever wrote that understands how GPS works.

 

I had a interesting experience once on a rail replacement coach that was sent down lanes that were a bit on the narrow side. By day apparently it had been OK, but this was after it got dark and the driver had an encounter with a hedge leaving the front wing mirror hanging from its wires.

 

It wasn't going to go back in, and for some reason the connector wouldn't undo, leaving the only option to cut it off before it dropped off.

 

This was a three handed job, and as I was sitting at the front I ended up as the assistant leaning out of the door holding the mirror. One of the more unusual experiences I've had on public transport.

 

It might have been a good idea to turn the power off first though - neither of us thought of that.

 

Ah yes, they don't call them "P45 mirrors" for nothing you know!

 

I once had the "opportunity" to hit the "Break Glass for Fire Extinguisher" panel.  Did everything right.  Investigate.  Passengers off.  Get extinguisher.  Spray foam.  Wasn't til they looked at the CCTV afterwards that someone asked "At what point did you switch off the master switch?" I realised I'd left the engine running and electrics on, whilst spraying a burning USB socket with foam...

[PhilJ W]

The handbrake on warning light on my car does not go out until the lever is pushed right to the floor. I have sometimes spotted it on despite the handbrake being completely off. I did have a warning symbol come up in a corner of the dash the other day but it has since disappeared. It was amber rather than red and shaped like an old fashioned gas tap. I have no idea what it was supposed to indicate, I checked the lights, oil and water and even the screenwashers and all was OK.