Driving standards

[admiles]

33 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Yes

 

My last occupation I was a delivery driver for 3 years in North London, I always managed to park legally, even if it meant a long walk and several trips. When I was first employed I was told in no uncertain terms I was driving a moving advertisement board and the highest standards were expected. Yes it is tough especially when delivering to flats with no lift and having to go up and down the stairs several times. That was the job, I could always get another one 

 

Can I ask what you delivered? We've established you drove a "van".  I'll assume it was a 3.5t van but feel free to correct me. 

 

 

[hayfield]

32 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Can I ask what you delivered? We've established you drove a "van".  I'll assume it was a 3.5t van but feel free to correct me. 

 

 

 

Spot on a Mercedes Sprinter. Online groceries so many deliveries were quite large. I never classified my self as a professional driver, though for 3 years that was my job. But the Highway code is the same for all. I was told that I was expected to follow the law when driving, if I broke any it was down to me, I was on my own. 

 

In a civilised society we cannot choose what laws we choose to obey and what we ignore.

 

Interesting that the comments are excuses for bad parking, Nothing said about being forced out of a lane (which I was entitled to be in) by an HGV who decided not to be in the correct lane to queue jump  !!!

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, Grovenor said:

No, I would expect the delivery driver or his managers to be aware of the nature of the delivery and the restrictions of the site and to devise and plan a safe way of working for the delivery in accordance witrh the law.

Perhaps doable if a regular delivery, but what about a once off?

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

Yes

 

My last occupation I was a delivery driver for 3 years in North London, I always managed to park legally, even if it meant a long walk and several trips. When I was first employed I was told in no uncertain terms I was driving a moving advertisement board and the highest standards were expected. Yes it is tough especially when delivering to flats with no lift and having to go up and down the stairs several times. That was the job, I could always get another one 

Plus of course any parking/driving tickets would be coming your way, via the management. The vast majority of companies won't pay their employees fines.

 

A mate of mine used to drive delivery trucks and was trying to get the deliveries dropped off promptly. However he was always getting speeding tickets etc. One day he decided that he'd had enough of that lark. So started driving to speed limits etc and did slightly less each day, sometimes returning to the depot items he'd been too late for.

His boss never noticed a thing.

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Plus of course any parking/driving tickets would be coming your way, via the management. The vast majority of companies won't pay their employees fines.

 

A mate of mine used to drive delivery trucks and was trying to get the deliveries dropped off promptly. However he was always getting speeding tickets etc. One day he decided that he'd had enough of that lark. So started driving to speed limits etc and did slightly less each day, sometimes returning to the depot items he'd been too late for.

His boss never noticed a thing.

 

I was lucky with very good managers, they knew if I was late it was out of my control. But as you say speeding & parking tickets were the drivers responsibility, 

[admiles]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

Spot on a Mercedes Sprinter. Online groceries so many deliveries were quite large. I never classified my self as a professional driver, though for 3 years that was my job. But the Highway code is the same for all. I was told that I was expected to follow the law when driving, if I broke any it was down to me, I was on my own. 

 

In a civilised society we cannot choose what laws we choose to obey and what we ignore.

 

Interesting that the comments are excuses for bad parking, Nothing said about being forced out of a lane (which I was entitled to be in) by an HGV who decided not to be in the correct lane to queue jump  !!!

 

Ok, so a 3.5t van with plastic crates weighing maybe 10-20Kgs max?  

 

So you've no experience driving a 44t vehicle with a 13.5 meter trailer loaded with say 26 pallets each weighing 800-1000 Kgs round central London? Or trying to park one?

 

I'll also guess you've never tried to drag a 500, 800, 1000 Kg pallet on a pallet truck over un-even ground or up a slight slope or across a road. You cannot expect a driver to have to do that (and I don't!) even if it were physically possible. You have a responsibility for that driver's health and safely at work.

 

Sometimes HGVs have to park on double yellows or deliveries simply can't be made. Your suggestion isn't practical or realistic.  No driver or haulier wants to park on double yellows if they can help it. 

 

(Edit: I've always paid my drivers parking fines if they couldn't be avoided in the course of making a delivery)

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by admiles

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, admiles said:

 

Ok, so a 3.5t van with plastic crates weighing maybe 10-20Kgs max?  

 

So you've no experience driving a 44t vehicle with a 13.5 meter trailer loaded with say 26 pallets each weighing 800-1000 Kgs round central London? Or trying to park one?

 

I'll also guess you've never tried to drag a 500, 800, 1000 Kg pallet on a pallet truck over un-even ground or up a slight slope or across a road. You cannot expect a driver to have to do that (and I don't!) even if it were physically possible. You have a responsibility for that driver's health and safely at work.

 

Sometimes HGVs have to park on double yellows or deliveries simply can't be made. Your suggestion isn't practical or realistic.  No driver or haulier wants to park on double yellows if they can help it. 

 

(Edit: I've always paid my drivers parking fines if they couldn't be avoided in the course of making a delivery)

 

 

Yet again you are making false assumptions, many workers who are not HGV drivers have to use pump trucks pulling heavy pallets over both uneven and undulating surfaces, several occasions it took two of us (one pushing the other pulling) to move a pallet up an incline. As you say where unloading is allowed or restrictions suspended its fine. Two examples I made and again the professional driver brigade ignored them, is the car transporter drivers who both have to unload outside the dealership within 10 meters of a road junction, many times worse is their use of forcibly using their lorries to move other vehicles out of lanes. This is what happens when standards fall.

 

I accept many jobs are difficult and when we had an extension built the skill of HGV drivers unloading building materials was stunning. But as I said if we start ignoring laws we end up with anarchy.

 

As for plastic crates, when you have to carry several up quite a few floors manually when either there is no lift of the lift is out of order its equally as physical. 

 

[stewartingram]

So if a delivery had to be made somewhere, through a gate with an armed security guard who refused to let you through, would you shoot him to enable the delivery?

Same conditions , breaking the law to suit your circumstances. 

If a job is impossible, you are within your legal rights to return the goods and let your manager sort it out. How, is his problem, not yours.

[Reorte]

59 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

So if a delivery had to be made somewhere, through a gate with an armed security guard who refused to let you through, would you shoot him to enable the delivery?

Same conditions , breaking the law to suit your circumstances. 

If a job is impossible, you are within your legal rights to return the goods and let your manager sort it out. How, is his problem, not yours.

 

An unfortunate truth though is that there are managers who'll make it your problem, and people who do feel under pressure to do the job if they want to keep the job even if it does mean breaking some laws. I'm not saying that's a justification, but it is an explanation.

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Plus of course any parking/driving tickets would be coming your way, via the management. The vast majority of companies won't pay their employees fines.

They can be a little too quick to try and pass them on, too. I was once given a fine by the office for parking on the zig-zags by the crossing outside a school in Cheltenham.

"Here you are, pay this" was the unhelpful comment.

I questioned it as I knew the school and always reversed up the side entranceway to deliver. "But it's your registration number". (we all drove our 'own' trucks at that place, most of the time.)

I again asked that the date and tachos be checked. What a surprise - there was no tacho in my name for that date, because I was on holiday.

I was able to throw - not quite literally, but almost- throw the fine back at the office Bod and said something along the lines of "there you go,find the Agency Driver".  A rather satisfying moment.

 

There is still little comparison between delivering the contents of a van, and handballing the contents of an HGV. I won't bore the collective with lots of personal examples, but just one, where I once completely blocked off the end of a long cul-e-sac off the Fulham Palace Road to deliver to a garden centre. Road workers vehicles were in my usual space - parked on double yellows - and there was no way I was parking elsewhere down the road because it was on a hill, and I for one cannot pull a 1-ton pallet uphill; the usual space was uphill of the garden centre, so gravity helped get the pallets off the tail lift & into their premises. Anyone who thinks I should have parked some way further down the hill and then carried each and every bag of compost and what-not individually (as they are heavy enough on their own) back up to the garden centre can Go Forth, to put it mildly.

The old hag of a woman who accosted me as I unloaded got short shrift.

"Do you know you're blocking the road?" she demanded, in a loud, imperious voice.

"Yes" I replied. Things went downhill (no pun intended) from there.

Her parting shot made the garden centre staff laugh as well -

"God help England, with people like you here!!" 

 

Fortunately I am no longer an HGV driver so I am not treated like the scum of the earth by all & sundry. I can earn a decent enough living without getting up at Silly-o'clock every day, or working minimum 12-hour shifts on a fixed hourly rate without 'overtime' rates - fixed rates which I might add you can get for stacking shelves or flipping burgers which don't have the added liability of killing anyone if your attention lapses for a few seconds, or you just give up and follow the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality and just drive like a selfish moron.

If the job paid better and drivers were treated better, then there would probably be more people who actually wanted to do it, rather than it being a last resort job for those bad apples who couldn't give a toss, drive accordingly, and give every other truck driver a bad name.

 

Sorry, rant over. I feel much better now. 

[F-UnitMad]

1 minute ago, F-UnitMad said:

Sorry, rant over. I feel much better now. 

Actually, no I don't. It has reminded me of why I got so cheesed off with a job I used to love that I jumped at the chance of redundancy. 

[bimble]

Does remind me of the speed the DPD driver who'd double parked and blocked Pratt Walk in Lambeth ran back to his van when an escorted car with four police motorbike outriders with blues & twos pulled into the street...

[SWT442]

Not just the delivery drivers that end up parking in places to get people grumbling. As a utilities worker (sewage), quite a few sites are installed with no thought as to how you actually access them, or in some cases the area has grown around it, still with no thought to access.

 

Places like Winchester are littered with micro stations under the streets, at the bottom of steep cul-de-sacs or shop basements. All are great fun to get to in a van. No doubt there's internal complaints and tuts as to where I park but I (and I suspect most of the public) don't fancy the prospects of me swanning around the streets in a sh!t covered romper suit as I need to walk back to the van to get more tools/equipment or change out of my gear.

 

Even when space is actually provided, the public don't help as they wind up thinking it's free space for them to use, despite signage saying access is required 24/7 and the like. Most when they see you humping gear about move but some like to argue, like the Nurse in Lymington at 5am on Boxing Day a few years back. Having parked in the entrance to our pumping station (despite signage saying not too), got all huffy with us because we'd blocked her in and weren't moving the vans as we were in the middle of a pump lift. That little exchange wasn't filled with much Christmas cheer...

 

Andy.

[admiles]

On 17/08/2021 at 18:29, hayfield said:

 

Yet again you are making false assumptions, many workers who are not HGV drivers have to use pump trucks pulling heavy pallets over both uneven and undulating surfaces, several occasions it took two of us (one pushing the other pulling) to move a pallet up an incline. As you say where unloading is allowed or restrictions suspended its fine. Two examples I made and again the professional driver brigade ignored them, is the car transporter drivers who both have to unload outside the dealership within 10 meters of a road junction, many times worse is their use of forcibly using their lorries to move other vehicles out of lanes. This is what happens when standards fall.

 

I accept many jobs are difficult and when we had an extension built the skill of HGV drivers unloading building materials was stunning. But as I said if we start ignoring laws we end up with anarchy.

 

As for plastic crates, when you have to carry several up quite a few floors manually when either there is no lift of the lift is out of order its equally as physical. 

 

 

And yet you expect an HGV driver to have to drag a pallet on a pallet truck some distance to a delivery address because they can't park any closer without causing a problem to other road users.  That in itself is "ignoring the law". Those nice laws that mean the people I employ don't have to try and do what you suggest and potentially injure (or worse) themselves or anyone else.  If than means they park on double yellows where they have no choice so be it.

 

I'm genuinely interested how you think things would get delivered. In your scenario the driver can't park outside the delivery point on double yellows because "anarchy" would ensue and he can't park in a safe place that could be some distance away because it's not physically possible (or legal) for him to get the pallet to the delivery address on his own safely.  So which law do we ignore? The one about not parking on double yellows and inconveniencing people or the H&S ones that prevent drivers injuring themselves moving heavy loads? 

 

I mentioned the crates because yes lugging them up the stairs of a tower block is hard work but you can take them one by one if needs be as they weigh what 10-15Kgs? You can't break down a pallet in the vast majority of the time and it can easily weigh 800-1000 Kgs so to say it's "equally as physical" is amusing to say the least.

 

Am I saying there aren't selfish and inconsiderate HGV drivers? No, of course not. There are plenty. But equally there are plenty of selfish and inconsiderate car/van driver, motorcyclists, cyclists etc.  I'd love to plonk you into the passenger seat with one of my distribution drivers for a day. I think you'd be surprised what they have to do to make the job happen and how good at what they do they actually are.

 

You need to step out of your black and white thinking once in a while and realize the world doesn't work that way. 

 

Edit: In the example of the car transporter is there actually another suitable flat location the transporter can actually access to load/unload nearby? Honestly there's probably a good reason why they park where they do. The drivers would be in deep trouble if damage occurred to one of the vehicles they transport so parking close to a junction really wouldn't be in their best interest. 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by admiles

[peanuts]

Fortunately I am no longer an HGV driver so I am not treated like the scum of the earth by all & sundry. I can earn a decent enough living without getting up at Silly-o'clock every day, or working minimum 12-hour shifts on a fixed hourly rate without 'overtime' rates - fixed rates which I might add you can get for stacking shelves or flipping burgers which don't have the added liability of killing anyone if your attention lapses for a few seconds, or you just give up and follow the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality and just drive like a selfish moron.

If the job paid better and drivers were treated better, then there would probably be more people who actually wanted to do it, rather than it being a last resort job for those bad apples who couldn't give a toss, drive accordingly, and give every other truck driver a bad name.

this this this got made redundant back in june 2020 scraped throu untill december got a nice job running around in a little van delivering carparts to garages and shops 08.30 starts 5.30 finish tho quite often earlier never more than 10 miles from base no heavy lifting treated well by customers get to sit down in a properly equiped clean mess room for my dinner , staff discount on parts full uniform provided get to take my van home every night so travel costs zero plus hundred quid a month better wages . stress what stress ? got offered my old job back two months ago as they were getting busy again and desperate for me back couldnt match hours or money easy answer bye !

Edited August 19, 2021 by peanuts
fat fingers

[raymw]

Quote

get to take my van home every night so travel costs zero

Just curious, but it used to be you got taxed on firm providing transport to and from home. Is that still the case?

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, raymw said:

Just curious, but it used to be you got taxed on firm providing transport to and from home. Is that still the case?

Generally, yes, but as is usual with UK tax arrangements, loopholes have developed for things like being on-call for out-of-hours duty or as a key-holder.

 

John

[SM42]

8 hours ago, raymw said:

Just curious, but it used to be you got taxed on firm providing transport to and from home. Is that still the case?

 

Depends if you start work when you get in  your van and hence your commute is from your front door to the driving seat

 

A relative had a similar issue and it was solved by his company through HMRC when he suggested he park his van at the depot and drive the 60 miles from home to collect it when called out

 

Andy

[hayfield]

14 hours ago, admiles said:

 

And yet you expect an HGV driver to have to drag a pallet on a pallet truck some distance to a delivery address because they can't park any closer without causing a problem to other road users.  That in itself is "ignoring the law". Those nice laws that mean the people I employ don't have to try and do what you suggest and potentially injure (or worse) themselves or anyone else.  If than means they park on double yellows where they have no choice so be it.

 

No I did not say I expect the HGV driver to pull a pallet truck some distance, so please do not make things up and say I wrote them. Firstly I said at all times they should obey the law, secondly as a responsible employer/manager you should not encourage the drivers or anyone else to break the law

 

14 hours ago, admiles said:

 

I'm genuinely interested how you think things would get delivered. In your scenario the driver can't park outside the delivery point on double yellows because "anarchy" would ensue and he can't park in a safe place that could be some distance away because it's not physically possible (or legal) for him to get the pallet to the delivery address on his own safely.  So which law do we ignore? The one about not parking on double yellows and inconveniencing people or the H&S ones that prevent drivers injuring themselves moving heavy loads? 

 

Simply comply with all of them

 

14 hours ago, admiles said:

 

I mentioned the crates because yes lugging them up the stairs of a tower block is hard work but you can take them one by one if needs be as they weigh what 10-15Kgs? You can't break down a pallet in the vast majority of the time and it can easily weigh 800-1000 Kgs so to say it's "equally as physical" is amusing to say the least.

 

Having to climb several flights holding 12 litres or water in each hand doing so repeatedly is no joke, especially as the van had to be parked quite a distance from the building and several steps, some drivers even refused to deliver,

 

14 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Am I saying there aren't selfish and inconsiderate HGV drivers? No, of course not. There are plenty. But equally there are plenty of selfish and inconsiderate car/van driver, motorcyclists, cyclists etc.  I'd love to plonk you into the passenger seat with one of my distribution drivers for a day. I think you'd be surprised what they have to do to make the job happen and how good at what they do they actually are.

 

I am more concerned about dangerous parking something you seem to have totally ignored and dangerous driving . Then why when one HGV lorry is struggling to overtake another does not the other lorry just hold back slightly to let it pass, every day you see this on motorways and A roads. There would be far less congestion on our roads if there was a bit more consideration between HGV drivers

 

Yes I totally agree that there are many more inconsiderate and or dangerous road users hence why I started the thread. 

 

Why dont the police pull up everyone who is on an electric scooter, most are illeagle

 

14 hours ago, admiles said:

 

You need to step out of your black and white thinking once in a while and realize the world doesn't work that way. 

 

The trouble is with some people is they believe rules are for other people to observe !!  Two wrongs do not make a right

 

14 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Edit: In the example of the car transporter is there actually another suitable flat location the transporter can actually access to load/unload nearby? Honestly there's probably a good reason why they park where they do. The drivers would be in deep trouble if damage occurred to one of the vehicles they transport so parking close to a junction really wouldn't be in their best interest. 

 

 

There is never a good reason to park within 30 meters of a junction blocking the view of vehicles trying to enter the road, also forcing vehicles on to the wrong side of the road into  potentially oncoming vehicles coming out of the junction. Forget damage to their vehicles what if an accident occurred

 

 

[PaulCheffus]

14 minutes ago, hayfield said:

There is never a good reason to park within 30 meters of a junction blocking the view of vehicles trying to enter the road, also forcing vehicles on to the wrong side of the road into  potentially oncoming vehicles coming out of the junction. Forget damage to their vehicles what if an accident occurred

 

 

Hi

 

I wish someone would tell our local police that as there is a person in the village that always parks their car opposite a junction. There has been at least one accident caused by this but even after many complaints they claim it’s not a proper junction.

 

It certainly looks like a junction to me on left of image below which was taken before the person who parks their car opposite moved in. There has in the past been up to 3 of their cars parked in a row opposite the junction.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Guest]

When I ordered two 800kg pallets of rocks the company said the driver would have a manual pump truck so I was resigned to him not being able to get over the lip of the dropped kerb and me having to shift the lot off the road myself.

He turned out to have an electric one and had no problem getting up the drive. Driver said there's no way he would be doing the job with a manual one.

[boxbrownie]

6 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

I wish someone would tell our local police that as there is a person in the village that always parks their car opposite a junction. There has been at least one accident caused by this but even after many complaints they claim it’s not a proper junction.

 

It certainly looks like a junction to me on left of image below which was taken before the person who parks their car opposite moved in. There has in the past been up to 3 of their cars parked in a row opposite the junction.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Looking at the side road/drive it looks like a private drive/estate entrance so I suppose in law it’s not strictly a “road junction”………still have the same impact on traffic though.

[hayfield]

12 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

I wish someone would tell our local police that as there is a person in the village that always parks their car opposite a junction. There has been at least one accident caused by this but even after many complaints they claim it’s not a proper junction.

 

It certainly looks like a junction to me on left of image below which was taken before the person who parks their car opposite moved in. There has in the past been up to 3 of their cars parked in a row opposite the junction.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Certain police forces are encouraging the sending of photographic evidence, take a photo(s) clearly showing the number plates to your local police station. The Highway code is quite clear, plus there is a rule about parking on a dropped kerb.

[boxbrownie]

11 minutes ago, 30801 said:

When I ordered two 800kg pallets of rocks the company said the driver would have a manual pump truck so I was resigned to him not being able to get over the lip of the dropped kerb and me having to shift the lot off the road myself.

He turned out to have an electric one and had no problem getting up the drive. Driver said there's no way he would be doing the job with a manual one.

Same around here, when deliveries of anything heavy or large the delivery drivers know the score and have no issues at all, they perform some very interesting manoeuvres with equipment to deliver to the “door”, at the other end of the scale our refuse collection teams use small pickup trucks (with high sides) and have to remove our kitchen bin sacks one at a time from the wheelie bins as there is no “tipper/grabber arm” to help, and everything HAS to be in sacks or it doesn’t get removed from the bins, does anyone (customers and refuse collectors) bitch and moan…no, because that’s how it has to work.

 

Well, all except the usual Yodel drivers who just seem to be practicing their next Olympic trials by lobbing any parcel from lane to drive over the highest gate they can find regardless.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by boxbrownie

[hayfield]

The main issue for me us the clearly dangerous parking, the odd stopping in the quiet road, parking across my dropped drive whilst a quick delivery is made is fine, its just where its either dangerous or causing a major congestion. And as you say give the drivers the appropriate equipment to do their job.