Driving standards

[admiles]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

True enough,  but when the damage is largely caused by much heavier vehicles the difference between ICE and electric is a drop in the ocean.

 

Absolutely but the percentage of vehicles that are EV's is still relatively small. As that increases the problem also increases.

[Coldgunner]

I'd be interested to know how kerbweight affects wear on the road. Obviously there's variations based on load, specs etc but google gives weight ranges

 

A quick google suggests:

Tesla Model 3 weighs 1,611–1,836kg

Model Y weighs 2,352 - 2,455 kg

A 2024 Golf weighs 1,317 - 1,630 kg (Comparable to a model 3 in class?)

The Crapqai (sorry I hate these) is one of the most popular cars weighing 1,300 - 1,670 kg

 

Googlefu brings up https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/buying-and-selling-guides/the-top-10-most-popular-cars-in-the-uk/ which gives a list of the UK's most popular cars

 

I think Tesla's weigh significantly more in general compared to similar classed ICE cars, which isn't surprising really. But I wonder what difference it does make, not only in weight but the difference in power application. Does the high torque of an electric motor cause more potential damage? Does an ICE have a hammerblow effect?

[woodenhead]

Whilst I accept there is a case that future road schemes both local and national will have to take into account the weight of EVs over ICE vehicles, I am of the mind that the current state of local roads cannot be pinned on EVs alone.

 

There are not enough pure EV vehicles compared to ICE and Hybrids (with less batteries to carry) to be the sole reason for all the pot holes.  It's rather like it's easy for those in control of purses to blame the motorists for their car choices when in fact it's simply that road maintenance is taking a back seat to pay for social care and other priorities when funds are tight.  And we also should consider the ever increasing numbers of large SUV vehicles that manufacturers like to push now over small lightweight vehicles that are a dying breed in the UK.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

road maintenance is taking a back seat to pay for social care and other priorities when funds are tight. 

 

it's not really a question of prioritisation* as of legal obligation.

 

*Not that any of us would prioritise road maintenance over social care, schools, libraries, etc.

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Coldgunner said:

I'd be interested to know how kerbweight affects wear on the road. Obviously there's variations based on load, specs etc but google gives weight ranges

 

A quick google suggests:

Tesla Model 3 weighs 1,611–1,836kg

Model Y weighs 2,352 - 2,455 kg

A 2024 Golf weighs 1,317 - 1,630 kg (Comparable to a model 3 in class?)

The Crapqai (sorry I hate these) is one of the most popular cars weighing 1,300 - 1,670 kg

 

Googlefu brings up https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/buying-and-selling-guides/the-top-10-most-popular-cars-in-the-uk/ which gives a list of the UK's most popular cars

 

I think Tesla's weigh significantly more in general compared to similar classed ICE cars, which isn't surprising really. But I wonder what difference it does make, not only in weight but the difference in power application. Does the high torque of an electric motor cause more potential damage? Does an ICE have a hammerblow effect?

For a more direct comparison - comparing identical spec Vauxhall Corsas (SE Nav)

 

Electric - 1455Kg

Petrol - 1165Kg

 

That's a 290Kg or 25% difference in otherwise identical cars - but the EV is still less than most SUVs...

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

And we also should consider the ever increasing numbers of large SUV vehicles that manufacturers like to push now over small lightweight vehicles that are a dying breed in the UK.

People chose to buy SUVs, they aren't forced to. Having had  a "medium" SUV, then a "small" one we now have a 5 door hatchback. We will go back to a small SUV, as at 78 years of age, I find them easier to get into and out of.

[Hroth]

Small "SUV"s are perfectly acceptable.  As Jol says, the height difference over a conventional car makes them easier to get into.  I've a Skoda Yeti and I really do like it.  I'm not intending to replace it anytime soon, but Skoda are apparently going to produce an EV with the same form-factor in a year or two, so I'll be following that with interest. 🤔

 

Anything larger than the Yeti is a waste of space... 🤪

 

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

People chose to buy SUVs, they aren't forced to. Having had  a "medium" SUV, then a "small" one we now have a 5 door hatchback. We will go back to a small SUV, as at 78 years of age, I find them easier to get into and out of.

I'd argue the manufacturers are pushing ever bigger cars, rather like in the US where car sizes are ridiculous and dangerous but the more of them there are the more people need them to feel safe by being in a car of comparable size.  Look how Ford for example have dropped Fiesta and Focus models in favour of larger (though not the largest) SUV type vehicles. 

 

The numbers of Range Rovers / Land Rovers and similar large SUV I see on the road and in shopping centre car parks in the middle of a city are ridiculous.

 

I get the benefits of a small/medium SUV, when the kids were young we had CMAX and Picasso MPV, and as you say they they are easier to get in and out of, sit higher on the road for visibility and are generally a useful mode of transport.

[TheQ]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Agree HGV's are normally bulk delivery, more like ban the school run and make the little ones walk with their parents as we used to do 

Difficult when they closed the local school, there are many more school closures in the pipeline as the birth rate is dropping. The school across the road from me has closed*** the primary school in the next village has closed ( about 25 years ago. ) the nearest is 4 miles away..

 

 

(*** Ok that was in 1894)

 

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

People chose to buy SUVs, they aren't forced to. Having had  a "medium" SUV, then a "small" one we now have a 5 door hatchback. We will go back to a small SUV, as at 78 years of age, I find them easier to get into and out of.

 

My late father bought a Citroen Berlingo with my late mother's arthritis in mind. I have it now and, although in no way stiff, I do appreciate the extra seat height getting and and out!

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Absolutely but the percentage of vehicles that are EV's is still relatively small. As that increases the problem also increases.

 

Not where I live

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

For a more direct comparison - comparing identical spec Vauxhall Corsas (SE Nav)

 

Electric - 1455Kg

Petrol - 1165Kg

 

That's a 290Kg or 25% difference in otherwise identical cars - but the EV is still less than most SUVs...

 

 

Round here most EV are either SUV' s or similar size

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Small "SUV"s are perfectly acceptable.  As Jol says, the height difference over a conventional car makes them easier to get into.  I've a Skoda Yeti and I really do like it.  I'm not intending to replace it anytime soon, but Skoda are apparently going to produce an EV with the same form-factor in a year or two, so I'll be following that with interest. 🤔

 

Anything larger than the Yeti is a waste of space... 🤪

 

 

SUV is a very murky term these days. It used to be something with a ladder frame chassis and live axles at both ends. Now a lot of them are just boxy hatchbacks.

They lose a bit of economy over a Fiesta or whatever they platform-share with but they're not grossly inefficient.

 

I thought maybe the Tyre Extinguisher people might offer some guidence but they seem clueless.

Eg. They just say 'Jeep!' but the Jeep Avenger is just a Vauxhall Corsa in drag and a Nissan Juke harms the environment less than it does your eyes.

https://tyreextinguishers.com/how-to-spot-an-suv

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Round here most EV are either SUV' s or similar size

But that's not the fault of their power train, it's down to the marketing machine conning people into thinking they need a humongous fancy car to show off to their neighbours - and for those who can afford it, buying an electric version means they can show off even more, by pretending to be green...

 

(That's not to dig at the people who actually need a larger vehicle due to off-road capability, high entry, large load capability etc - but we all know the majority of them are only used for the school run and supermarket...)

[SM42]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

People chose to buy SUVs, they aren't forced to. Having had  a "medium" SUV, then a "small" one we now have a 5 door hatchback. We will go back to a small SUV, as at 78 years of age, I find them easier to get into and out of.

 

But people are effectively forced to buy an SUV.

 

Most ranges now have ditched the medium and large family hatchback / saloon/ estate, so if you want a new car it's SUV or small car. 

 

The manufacturers have been pushing SUVs because they cost about the same to build as a saloon but can charge many thousands more for them. 

 

If you want to carry 2 adults and 2/ 3 kids and a week's luggage you will struggle to fit it all in.

 

We recently had a Kia Sportage as a hire car ( not by choice, our original choice of a C'eed was not available)

 

Three adults got in. 

 

Their luggage ( cabin bag and small under seat bag each) went in the boot. It was a tight fit. The was not much room left. The coats wedged in around the bags. 

 

Lord knows what damage they would do should you be unfortunate enough to hit a pedestrian

 

The second hand forecourts are awash with SUVs. 

 

Finding a second hand large estate / saloon or hatchback is harder. 

 

Everyone is holding on to them till they fall apart.

It's one of the reasons I'm driving a 10 year old car as there is nothing practical to replace it. 

 

Andy

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, 30801 said:

SUV is a very murky term these days. It used to be something with a ladder frame chassis and live axles at both ends. Now a lot of them are just boxy hatchbacks.

 

I didn't buy Yeti as an "SUV", just as a comfortable car with a reasonable amount of room in the back.  As you say, its a boxy "hatchback", based on a VW group platform.  And its never been on a school run...  🤪

 

If it dies, I don't know what I'd replace it with, new cars are pretty meh.  I might look for another (younger) Yeti!

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

38 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

But people are effectively forced to buy an SUV.

 

Most ranges now have ditched the medium and large family hatchback / saloon/ estate, so if you want a new car it's SUV or small car. 

 

The manufacturers have been pushing SUVs because they cost about the same to build as a saloon but can charge many thousands more for them. 

 

If you want to carry 2 adults and 2/ 3 kids and a week's luggage you will struggle to fit it all in.

 

We recently had a Kia Sportage as a hire car ( not by choice, our original choice of a C'eed was not available)

 

Three adults got in. 

 

Their luggage ( cabin bag and small under seat bag each) went in the boot. It was a tight fit. The was not much room left. The coats wedged in around the bags. 

 

Lord knows what damage they would do should you be unfortunate enough to hit a pedestrian

 

The second hand forecourts are awash with SUVs. 

 

Finding a second hand large estate / saloon or hatchback is harder. 

 

Everyone is holding on to them till they fall apart.

It's one of the reasons I'm driving a 10 year old car as there is nothing practical to replace it. 

 

Andy

That may be true of some manufacturers but not all. For example Peugeot offer hatchbacks and estates in various sizes (possibly a by product of the French market's demand). It is much the same with the so called premium brands with saloons and estates although Audi get the prize (in my view) for bloated SUVs for the "look at what I drive" sector of the population.

 

Nissan were an early mass production brand that produced a 2WD SUV which quickly became (and remains) a strong seller. So they presumably had identified a product that appealed to the UK market. Looking at their range, your argument is valid, but then they never had much in the mid size sector or estate cars anyway. Likewise with Kia and the other eastern car brands.

 

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Nissan were an early mass production brand that produced a 2WD SUV 

 

Showing the Matra Rancho being decades before its time. Just too much style for the seventies...

 

[SM42]

52 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

That may be true of some manufacturers but not all. For example Peugeot offer hatchbacks and estates in various sizes (possibly a by product of the French market's demand). It is much the same with the so called premium brands with saloons and estates although Audi get the prize (in my view) for bloated SUVs for the "look at what I drive" sector of the population.

 

Nissan were an early mass production brand that produced a 2WD SUV which quickly became (and remains) a strong seller. So they presumably had identified a product that appealed to the UK market. Looking at their range, your argument is valid, but then they never had much in the mid size sector or estate cars anyway. Likewise with Kia and the other eastern car brands.

 

 

 

Ford, Hyundai, Mazda, Honda, Volvo, Toyota have all moved to an almost exclusive SUV, of various sizes, range. 

 

There are a few outliers as you mention, but what are their advertising budgets being spent on promoting?

 

SUVs that only really match the V part of the acronym. 

 

Andy

[PhilJ W]

47 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

Showing the Matra Rancho being decades before its time. Just too much style for the seventies...

 

I always wanted one of those until I had a close look at them. They were basically a Simca van front end and floorpan with the fibreglass rear body attached to it. No attention was paid to rustproofing and were the fibreglass body was attached to the steel components it was full of mud traps. They are now extinct in the UK.

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

But people are effectively forced to buy an SUV.

 

Most ranges now have ditched the medium and large family hatchback / saloon/ estate, so if you want a new car it's SUV or small car. 

 

The manufacturers have been pushing SUVs because they cost about the same to build as a saloon but can charge many thousands more for them. 

 

If you want to carry 2 adults and 2/ 3 kids and a week's luggage you will struggle to fit it all in.

 

We recently had a Kia Sportage as a hire car ( not by choice, our original choice of a C'eed was not available)

 

Three adults got in. 

 

Their luggage ( cabin bag and small under seat bag each) went in the boot. It was a tight fit. The was not much room left. The coats wedged in around the bags. 

 

Lord knows what damage they would do should you be unfortunate enough to hit a pedestrian

 

The second hand forecourts are awash with SUVs. 

 

Finding a second hand large estate / saloon or hatchback is harder. 

 

Everyone is holding on to them till they fall apart.

It's one of the reasons I'm driving a 10 year old car as there is nothing practical to replace it. 

 

Andy

 

A me too post! I bought my Citroen C5 break ( the last of the proper wet suspension models) a few years back as I could see the writing on the wall, at my age and for the mileage I do it will see me out.

Also, those of us like Andy and myself are far more environmentally friendly in whole life terms than the people who buy the latest "more economical/greener/facelifted" vehicles every 12 months, between us we've saved at least 20 cars being unnecessarily built.

 

Mike.

[SM42]

10 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

A me too post! I bought my Citroen C5 break ( the last of the proper wet suspension models) a few years back as I could see the writing on the wall, at my age and for the mileage I do it will see me out.

Also, those of us like Andy and myself are far more environmentally friendly in whole life terms than the people who buy the latest "more economical/greener/facelifted" vehicles every 12 months, between us we've saved at least 20 cars being unnecessarily built.

 

Mike.

 

I have seriously considered  buying a car now to replace the current one when it falls apart. (Sort of have one in stock for the future while you can still get em thing. )

 

A dealership I pass on my commute, occasionally has a large estate type car out front for sale. ( model now discontinued) 

 

They rarely are there for more than a week.

 

Some of the SUVs have been there for a couple of months. 

 

Anyway I will need to brave Brum's rush hour traffic later ( fortunately I shall be going the opposite way to the peak traffic for most of the time)   so deplorable driving will be witnessed no doubt. 

 

Andy

Edited April 18 by SM42

[Reorte]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

it's not really a question of prioritisation* as of legal obligation.

 

*Not that any of us would prioritise road maintenance over social care, schools, libraries, etc.

It's not so simple though in reality (putting aside the legal aspect), since it shouldn't ever be a case of keep taking from one to avoid taking anything from another. Roads are absolutely necessary for society to function, just as much as anything else, it's just that leaving them to fall apart doesn't have as many immediate problems. Children still need to get to school, ambulances need to be able to get people to hospital (preferably without jolting them over potholes).

 

But kicking the can down the road means a bigger headache later on (no different from the railways there and the appalling state of many structures, with forests growing out of them), so in the long run you'll spend less if you don't cut now. So taking some money away from those other things can be the lesser evil. You also need to look at what money is being spent on elsewhere. A while back I looked at school spending - the amount spent per pupil is much higher, even after adjusting for inflation, than it was when I was at school. Is that money well spent?

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Equally, less wear at lower speeds - justifying reduced maintenance. Several 30 mph roads round here have been resurfaced in the last couple of years - I feel sure this has made them less safe for pedestrians by increasing the proportion of vehicles going at 40 mph!

Strangely, here when roads get totally rebuilt or even duplicated, the speed limit gets REDUCED from what it was before!

[Coldgunner]

Thinking of the weight of vehicles, do many think that changing the licensing would perhaps make a significant change. For example, my mum can drive a 7.5t lorry on her license due to when she took her test. I'm limited to 3.5t on my license (same license, harder test, go figure lol). Should we change the licensing to maybe limit weight of a standard license to something like 1600kg, and anyone wanting a heavier vehicle has to have an enhanced license?