Osborne takes knife to Network Rail budget

[chrisf]

Really?  How do those 319s keep out of the way of Pendos and Voyagers?  The 323s are there for a reason.  319s cannot simply be slotted into the existing diagrams: they are unable to keep to time.

 

On the Midland main line they have shown themselves very capable of keeping out of the way of Meridians and HSTs.  Given a clear road they can't half shift. 

 

Chris

[Leander]

  None - hopefully the savings will go into paying down the national debt his predecessors got us into.

 

 

So Kenton, it didn't have anything to do with the worldwide banking crisis then?

[andania 213]

On the Midland main line they have shown themselves very capable of keeping out of the way of Meridians and HSTs.  Given a clear road they can't half shift. 

 

Chris

 

I remember when they'd just entered service, i was told by a driver,  (who still drives them now,  out of where they're going to be removed), that when running OK, the 323's had the ability to catch up to an 87 hauled express in no time flat. ( IIRC, 87's weren't known for sluggishness either!).

I can see said driver having a great deal of inverse fun with the replacements,( unless they're uprated somehow), especially when the already tight timetable will be drawn around the 323's capabilities. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

So Kenton, it didn't have anything to do with the worldwide banking crisis then?

 

The effect that the worldwide banking crisis had, is widely acknowledged, but it can't be used as an excuse for the fiscal mismanagement, the massive increase in borrowing, spending and emptying out of the state coffers that ultimately left Britain with its pants down when the crisis hit.

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/blog-uploads/2012/05/government-spending-real-1967-2012.png

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/blog-uploads/2013/02/welfare-spending-nominal.png

 

 

Back to the railway.....

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

3. HS1 is leased long term by a consortium (largely Canadian teachers' pension Fund) and NR was chosen, against other offers, and for a second time, to run and maintain it.

 

 

Mike, NR have the contract to maintain and operate the railway line and stations.

They don't run HS1 ltd, the owner and overall management company.

 

 

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[phil-b259]

I remember when they'd just entered service, i was told by a driver,  (who still drives them now,  out of where they're going to be removed), that when running OK, the 323's had the ability to catch up to an 87 hauled express in no time flat. ( IIRC, 87's weren't known for sluggishness either!).

I can see said driver having a great deal of inverse fun with the replacements,( unless they're uprated somehow), especially when the already tight timetable will be drawn around the 323's capabilities. 

 

With respect unless you or your driver friend has driven both classes I find it very hard to believe the difference between the two are that significant. OK the 319s have one extra carriage and the 323s have a later generation traction package but as has been pointed out the 319s were expected to run fast and have good acceleration under 25Kv so as to not hold up Midland Mainline HSTs.

 

I suspect the biggest reason people don't want to see the 323s go is simply a combination of the '319s are older trains' / 'southerners cast offs' and the 'hard done by Northerners' sentiment that seems to abound when rolling stock issues are discussed. In some respects these are valid points but on the other hand there is a certain amount of operational logic in standardising the Northern electric fleet around one train type.

[DavidH]

The effect that the worldwide banking crisis had, is widely acknowledged, but it can't be used as an excuse for the fiscal mismanagement, the massive increase in borrowing, spending and emptying out of the state coffers that ultimately left Britain with its pants down when the crisis hit.

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/blog-uploads/2012/05/government-spending-real-1967-2012.png

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/blog-uploads/2013/02/welfare-spending-nominal.png

.

They don't tell the whole story. In fact, I'd be inclined to say "what fiscal mismanagement?"

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/net-borrowing-55-14-600x446.png

[hayfield]

  Call me an idiot if you like, rich from someone who doesn't know me! And clearly doesn't know or has read my opinions on the media.

 

My views on HS2 are based on my opinions that it is too expensive and does little off what is required. In this topic it is clear that there other "cheaper" projects that are possibly far more important. I have no use for HS2 like most of the folk in the UK who will be paying for it for years to come. The country cannot afford it and I do not see it giving any real benefit to those up-north (and I don't mean those who wish to commute from Birmingham/Leeds/Middle England to London. Speed is not the only argument against, just as jobs is not the only argument for it. We are looking at only a finite budget and I would rather it was spent on things that would benefit a larger group of the people who fund it. Plenty of non-railway projects come further up my list. But I must be an idiot because I would have let some of the banks fail and prosecuted some of the politicians who let/mis-managed things to let happen.

 

 

Kenton

 

Nice to see you back on form, I do totally agree with you with regard to the banks, though its bankers and what I perceive was lacklustre regulators that let this happen, politicians I guess caused the climate for it to happen though.

 

I do beg to differ about the need for better and more rail routes, though there may have been other options to HS2. The West Coast main line is full up we do need extra capacity on the north-south route.

 

I had the pleasure to going to Italy and back by train on my holiday, The TGV service in France and its equivalents in Italy and Switzerland were excellent. Long distance train travel must be the way ahead and we need to catch up with the rest of Europe. Its a great pity we cannot put more freight on the rail system, especially very long distance traffic. To do that we need capacity on our network

[ejstubbs]

Saying you think HS2 is a white elephant yet failing to recognise the real issues that led to its creation...is basically just behaving like a child sticking their fingers in their ears and prancing around saying 'na - na i'm not listening'

 

You have seen Kenton's avatar, haven't you?

[GordonC]

With respect unless you or your driver friend has driven both classes I find it very hard to believe the difference between the two are that significant. OK the 319s have one extra carriage and the 323s have a later generation traction package but as has been pointed out the 319s were expected to run fast and have good acceleration under 25Kv so as to not hold up Midland Mainline HSTs.

 

I suspect the biggest reason people don't want to see the 323s go is simply a combination of the '319s are older trains' / 'southerners cast offs' and the 'hard done by Northerners' sentiment that seems to abound when rolling stock issues are discussed. In some respects these are valid points but on the other hand there is a certain amount of operational logic in standardising the Northern electric fleet around one train type.

 

'hard done by northerners' .... with very good reason too!! Have you seen the average age of trains in the north? how does that compare to the south? We pay the same taxes so why dont we get the same benefits!

 

While hundreds of millions of pounds get spent on one Crossrail station ... we cant even get £75m spent uninterrupted on electrification projects around some of the largest Northern cities which should really have been done years ago. And once they are electrified all we get is cast-offs so the south get new units

[andania 213]

With respect unless you or your driver friend has driven both classes I find it very hard to believe the difference between the two are that significant. OK the 319s have one extra carriage and the 323s have a later generation traction package but as has been pointed out the 319s were expected to run fast and have good acceleration under 25Kv so as to not hold up Midland Mainline HSTs.

 

I suspect the biggest reason people don't want to see the 323s go is simply a combination of the '319s are older trains' / 'southerners cast offs' and the 'hard done by Northerners' sentiment that seems to abound when rolling stock issues are discussed. In some respects these are valid points but on the other hand there is a certain amount of operational logic in standardising the Northern electric fleet around one train type.

 

I'm just relating first hand experience of a guy who has daily to deal with stuff at the sharp end.

Obviously your own first hand experiences are different.

[Glorious NSE]

the 323's had the ability to catch up to an 87 hauled express in no time flat. ( IIRC, 87's weren't known for sluggishness either!).

 

That wouldn't be unusual at all, local trains traditionally tended to be set up for a quick getaways, whilst Intercity trains tended to be set up for sustained higher speed running...

 

For example, HST's are no slouches, but you can outrun one over a surprising distance in a 75mph 165/0 until you get to the point where the DMUs accelaration tails off whilst the HST just keeps getting faster...

[Glorious NSE]

'hard done by northerners' .... with very good reason too!! Have you seen the average age of trains in the north? how does that compare to the south?

 

Do you want to run some numbers based on all the trains in the south and all the trains in the North and let us know? Thanks...

[GordonC]

Do you want to run some numbers based on all the trains in the south and all the trains in the North and let us know? Thanks...

 

I really dont need to ... the numbers of new units is vastly greater in the south. I really fail to see how you can possibly argue

[Glorious NSE]

I really dont need to ... the numbers of new units is vastly greater in the south. I really fail to see how you can possibly argue

 

"The North" has one franchise that has had an entirely new train fleet since privatisation, and "The South" has multiple fleets which are older than anything in Northern Rail's stable. So I don't think it's anywhere near as clear cut as you say...

 

Some real numbers would be great. Surely arguing from a position of facts rather than hearsay and hyperbole is a good thing?

[Mark Saunders]

I find that "the age of the train" is irrelevant!

 

It is reliability of service and the condition of the interiors that the Public see and quality of the seating!

 

Mark Saunders

[GordonC]

The newest Northern Rail units are 16 Class 333s from 2000. The next newest are early 1990s and over 20 years old.

 

Transpennine has 10 Class 350s and 51 Class 185s which are recent.

 

Now, how many hundreds of Desiros, Electrostars (including Capitalstars) are in the South? and how many of those multiple fleets in the south older than any northern ones dont have replacements lined up, such as from the incoming Crossrail or Thameslink fleets.

[The Stationmaster]

I really dont need to ... the numbers of new units is vastly greater in the south. I really fail to see how you can possibly argue

Hello - I live 'in the south'. our branch is going to be electrified (subject to review according to NR, definitely according to the TOC), the implementation date has slipped twice - in the past 3 months, we are going to get 'new' trains but in fact they're hardly a year or two 'newer' than the dmus they will replace, i.e. they're secondhand and getting on for 20 years old.  Such things are not unusual in any part of Britain - numerous routes have 'secondhand trains', it is called cascading and is a process initiated a long time ago by BR.  Local signalling control modernisation is being forced as much by electrification as by anything else while huge sums have been spent well north of here in signalling modernisation - in some instances of signalling which was newer than our 50 year old signalling.

 

Now as far as taxes are concerned the situation is equally simple - we all pay taxes at the same rate however huge sums of money are transferred away from the total amounts we pay in the south to be spent in the north.  If you don't want it we'd be happy to keep it and then we might actually get some beds in our new hospital instead of them being cut out of the scheme in order to save money.  Simple fact is the national cake is divided up and that includes our Council Tax where state funding per capita was reduced to give more to places north of us.

 

To be honest I'm utterly fed up with hearing all this north/south garbage - it is inaccurate and it long ceased to be amusing.  Let's now get back on track, please.

[GordonC]

Hello - I live 'in the south'. our branch is going to be electrified (subject to review according to NR, definitely according to the TOC), the implementation date has slipped twice - in the past 3 months, we are going to get 'new' trains but in fact they're hardly a year or two 'newer' than the dmus they will replace, i.e. they're secondhand and getting on for 20 years old.  Such things are not unusual in any part of Britain - numerous routes have 'secondhand trains', it is called cascading and is a process initiated a long time ago by BR.  Local signalling control modernisation is being forced as much by electrification as by anything else while huge sums have been spent well north of here in signalling modernisation - in some instances of signalling which was newer than our 50 year old signalling.

 

Now as far as taxes are concerned the situation is equally simple - we all pay taxes at the same rate however huge sums of money are transferred away from the total amounts we pay in the south to be spent in the north.  If you don't want it we'd be happy to keep it and then we might actually get some beds in our new hospital instead of them being cut out of the scheme in order to save money.  Simple fact is the national cake is divided up and that includes our Council Tax where state funding per capita was reduced to give more to places north of us.

 

To be honest I'm utterly fed up with hearing all this north/south garbage - it is inaccurate and it long ceased to be amusing.  Let's now get back on track, please.

 

Its not rubbish at all, Manchester is the third biggest city in the country ... yet it has very few 'new' trains and very little electrification was done after the initial WCML electrification until the recent Chat Moss line with probaby 50% of commuter lines being diesel hauled!!

 

Liverpool is a fair sized city ... how many 'new' trains does it have? Leeds? Yes, the south is more populated, but these are large populations too

 

If the country wasnt so London-centric with all the wealth being sucked to the south-east then there might not be as much need for taxes to be transferred north

[woodenhead]

Have you ever been in the middle of London at 5:00pm and watched the sheer volume of people exiting the underground onto the mainline stations.

 

Manchester has nothing in comparison and I am a northerner who regularly travels around by train.

 

Crossrail, London Overground and Thameslink are not vanity projects.

[GordonC]

Thats because you cant get that many people on 2 or 4 car pacers or sprinters. 8 or 12 car trains are always going to carry a greater volume of commuters.

 

I find it ridiculous that trains cannot be lengthened in the north by a few extra units yet £50bn can be found for HS2

[Mike Storey]

Mike, NR have the contract to maintain and operate the railway line and stations.

They don't run HS1 ltd, the owner and overall management company.

 

 

.

 

Thanks Ron - that's what I meant in shorthand, but you have clarified for others that aren't aware of the difference.

[Glorious NSE]

The newest Northern Rail units are 16 Class 333s from 2000. The next newest are early 1990s and over 20 years old.

 

Transpennine has 10 Class 350s and 51 Class 185s which are recent.

 

Now, how many hundreds of Desiros, Electrostars (including Capitalstars) are in the South? and how many of those multiple fleets in the south older than any northern ones dont have replacements lined up, such as from the incoming Crossrail or Thameslink fleets.

 

Cherry picking a type in one place to compare with a type somewhere else tells us nothing though. I might as well "Prove" that The South has pacers (in Devon) whilst The North runs round on new Desiro's (TPX) - see my point? It just doesn't get us anywhere...

 

Neither is overall fleet sizes - just look at the number of folk travelling in the different parts of the country and it doesn't take a genius to work out that The South (East in particular) needs more trains, as it's moving more people.

 

Which is why I suggested average fleet age per TOC, that would at least tell us something accurate.

 

Just out of interest, if i've totted it up right I reckon Northern Rail has a fleet size of about 744 vehicles*. But if you go down to the heart of London, the Bakerloo and Piccadilly fleets both pre-date any Northern Rail train*, and together make for a larger fleet (I make it about 780) - FWIW a replacement may happen some time between 2025 and 2033, long after it's been decreed that many trains in the Northern Rail fleet must be out of service...

 

FWIW I think you will find some "South" TOCs that will have an older average fleet than Northern at present, FGW certainly will, Anglia I think will to. I suspect most TOCs in The South will not be substantially newer than TPX.

 

Merseyrail will be considerably worse than Northern also as it runs a 1970s fleet, though my impression is that there isn't a huge outcry over that, which if train age is really a driving force seems highly illogical, as it's Northern and TPX that see the complaints about "Old Trains".

 

In terms of specific fleets older than Northern, without a specific replacement ordered? TSGN class 313, Southern class 313, Southern class 455, SWT class 455/8, AGA LHCS...(technically Chilterns LHCS!) - possibly some of AGAs 317s - it's kinda hard to be specific though as things are very fluid everywhere...

 

(If you want to get extreme then Island Line is about as far South as you can go, hasn't seen a new train since steam was in service and beats everybody in terms of an elderly fleet... )

 

(*Excepting the hired-in DRS hauled stock sets) 

 

 

 

[APOLLO]

New or old, our refurbished 319's on the Wigan to Liverpool stopping run are very nice trains. We'll keep those thanks.. The new Trans Pennine 350's on the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Wigan -Manchester are even nicer. No complaints with the new trains where I live, just the Government lying to us all before the election re rail investment(as usual !!).

 

They're also lying re pacers. The pacers will be life extended as per recent prototype. Them, along with the recycled London Underground tat, wonder where they will all end up ?

 

Brit15

[Edwin_m]

With respect unless you or your driver friend has driven both classes I find it very hard to believe the difference between the two are that significant. OK the 319s have one extra carriage and the 323s have a later generation traction package but as has been pointed out the 319s were expected to run fast and have good acceleration under 25Kv so as to not hold up Midland Mainline HSTs.

 

I suspect the biggest reason people don't want to see the 323s go is simply a combination of the '319s are older trains' / 'southerners cast offs' and the 'hard done by Northerners' sentiment that seems to abound when rolling stock issues are discussed. In some respects these are valid points but on the other hand there is a certain amount of operational logic in standardising the Northern electric fleet around one train type.

The 323 has 8 out of 12 axles motored compared to 4 out of 16 for a 319, which makes a difference to acceleration at low speeds.  It also has a three-phase drive which tends to give better acceleration at higher speeds.  So it's likely a 323 would outpace a 319 everywhere unless the line speed and the spacing between stations allows the 319 to take advantage of its higher top speed (100mph versus 90mph). 

 

The 319s keep ahead of HSTs and Meridians on the MML but only on the fast lines.  Most stopping trains use the slow lines. 

 

I'm rather surprised at Porterbrook saying they would move the 319s to the Midlands as it's unusual for a ROSCO to try to dictate terms.  Normally they are happy to do what their customers want, always assuming the customer pays handsomely for it, and I'm not aware of either London Midland or Northern asking for this. The only explanation that occurs is that some or all of the Northern bidders might have decided to do without 323s.