Osborne takes knife to Network Rail budget

[Glorious NSE]

We seem to be friends with Iran again this week. Maybe they're take some more Pacers off us?

It's taken this long for them to forgive us for sending the 141.....

[Mike Storey]

  The Toxic Debt should never have happened either if the powers that be had been watching and not fuelling the credit boom. What numbscull thought of the idea of loaning people more than 100% (eve 80%) of the asset!

 

As far as motorway widening, I'm against that too. The more congestion the better to help put people off the idea that wasting time commuting anywhere makes any sense. How many cars do you see on the roads with only one occupant? How many near;y empty trains outside the rush lemming hours? New railways, new roads, all has the same effect they just fill up and we start with another one.

 

Toxic Debt - ok we are agreed it was not Gordon Brown who alone caused the world to slide into recession, and the measures he implemented were not only actively supported by the Tories in opposition but were exemplified by the IMF, no less, as best practice around the world. Relevance to this topic is that (if the Sunday Times report is even half true) Osborne is still claiming events of 7 years ago, which he can demonstrably seen to have supported at the time and has had more than 5 years to address already, are cause for a return to knee-jerk Treasury cuts to rail investment. This should give great pause to those of us even considering that re-nationalisation would be a "good thing".

 

Road improvements - whether by road or by rail, delay or discomfort has not stopped usage of either to decrease, or even remain stable. We are agreed that major road improvements are well proven to be self-defeating, but the same rule is increasingly becoming true of rail improvements. Success breeds success. Incidentally, the "peak" is a much wider period in each day than was the case even 20 years ago, so the now limited period between the shoulder peaks during the day is the only daylight time when much stock can get an A exam, or a clean. Rolling stock utilisation and rail staff productivity in the UK is far, far superior to that in France, Italy or Spain, and comparable to Germany. You advocate a vast reduction in commuting, something promoted in the 1990's as "inevitable" due to new technology. Yet here we are, with passenger journeys having doubled in that time.

 

You seem to believe, and you are not alone by any means, that "they" should be doing something to stop rogue banking or unnecessary travel, and no doubt many other ills of our society. Governments clearly cannot effectively control human behaviours, without severe effects on the economy or individual freedoms. So, who are "they" exactly?

[John M Upton]

George Osbourne

I wouldn't trust him to run a bath let alone an economy!

[Dava]

George Osbourne

I wouldn't trust him to run a bath let alone an economy!

I think he has a man to do that for him.... Was it Jeeves, Clegg or Cable..?

[chrisf]

I think he has a man to do that for him.... Was it Jeeves, Clegg or Cable..?

 

At the risk of being political I'd say it was Danny Alexander.

 

Chris

[hayfield]

Toxic Debt - ok we are agreed it was not Gordon Brown who alone caused the world to slide into recession, and the measures he implemented were not only actively supported by the Tories in opposition but were exemplified by the IMF, no less, as best practice around the world. Relevance to this topic is that (if the Sunday Times report is even half true) Osborne is still claiming events of 7 years ago, which he can demonstrably seen to have supported at the time and has had more than 5 years to address already, are cause for a return to knee-jerk Treasury cuts to rail investment. This should give great pause to those of us even considering that re-nationalisation would be a "good thing".

 

Road improvements - whether by road or by rail, delay or discomfort has not stopped usage of either to decrease, or even remain stable. We are agreed that major road improvements are well proven to be self-defeating, but the same rule is increasingly becoming true of rail improvements. Success breeds success. Incidentally, the "peak" is a much wider period in each day than was the case even 20 years ago, so the now limited period between the shoulder peaks during the day is the only daylight time when much stock can get an A exam, or a clean. Rolling stock utilisation and rail staff productivity in the UK is far, far superior to that in France, Italy or Spain, and comparable to Germany. You advocate a vast reduction in commuting, something promoted in the 1990's as "inevitable" due to new technology. Yet here we are, with passenger journeys having doubled in that time.

 

You seem to believe, and you are not alone by any means, that "they" should be doing something to stop rogue banking or unnecessary travel, and no doubt many other ills of our society. Governments clearly cannot effectively control human behaviours, without severe effects on the economy or individual freedoms. So, who are "they" exactly?

 

 

Mike at the time I guess it was the best option put forward. Now we have to pay for it we are looking back with the benefit of hindsight

 

As for what's happening now, whoever would be in power would have to address the debt problem. I no of nobody who would willingly pay more tax, but we have to. Its a balance which needs to be addressed, perhaps getting multinational companies to pay tax where they earn it not where its cheapest is one answer and getting those who claim benefits who are not entitled to it without affecting those who need support is another.  I will stick to railway modelling

[Grimleygrid]

The facts are that, data and figures openly available for all to read, the Labour government under Blair and Brown’s watch over spent and took the country into debt prior to the so called global financial crisis, approximately £0.5B. Regulation was relaxed and banks and companies took full advantage, that I am sure we can all agree on. However, whilst yes banks should not have offered mortgages and lending to customers that they knew could not afford it, it is time for people to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody forced these people to take the mortgages or loans, so they have to share responsibility! It is like television programmes, people moan about them but there is an off button and so you do not have to watch it! We all make decisions and have to take responsibility! People signed the paperwork for borrowing the money and they too knew what they were undertaking.

 

We as a country are now in a position that we cannot afford to keep borrowing more money, spending it and getting even further in debt. Cuts have to be made across the board including the railways but then of course there are priorities which could be argued should be ring-fenced, depending on individuals this may be the NHS, welfare, education, transport, defence etc, etc.
As John said above, the debt situation needs to be addressed and the fundamental issue is by either raising taxes or cuts in spending. We can all play the blame game as much as we like but that will not get us anywhere! Also John is right, how many people in this country would agree to paying higher taxes when a great deal of the public are feeling the strain financially? Not very many I would think.

 

As mentioned previously, I commute into Liverpool Street and this morning, my unit was a 321 which I believe was built between 1988 and 1991. On very hot days, these are like saunas on wheels!
One thing I will say is that despite investment on the GE, upgrading the signalling and overhead wire equipment, the service has not changed much at all, in my experience. But the ticket prices have increased……..

[unclebobkt]

      ... .     

  As John said above, the debt situation needs to be addressed and the fundamental issue ... .

  ... .

 

      I wish to high heaven that all of us would stop 'Addressing problems.'!

  The only things that are addressed are letters & parcels for the GPO. or similar.

  Problems, and suchlike,  are to be handled effectively so that, and with some faint hope, they will not re-occur again.

 

      

[Grimleygrid]

Please accept my apologies Uncle Bob, the debt situation needs to be handled effectively!

[DavidH]

I'll be a maverick here, and suggest that Uncle Bob is wrong. My Concise Oxford has: "address, v. [...] 4. Direct one's attention to"

 

So you can "address a problem".

[brushman47544]

No, they just go round them, like I said, when non electrified lines have to be used.

And if we didn't still have some HSTs there'd have been no trains at all on Friday

 

Diverting round a blockage may still occur on the ECML but in most of the country it's now 'stop the shop and put the passengers onto buses' rather than set up diversions, even when the affected trains are diesel. Lack of route knowledge and/or non-availability of staff are just two of the reasons.

[jamie92208]

      I wish to high heaven that all of us would stop 'Addressing problems.'!

  The only things that are addressed are letters & parcels for the GPO. or similar.

  Problems, and suchlike,  are to be handled effectively so that, and with some faint hope, they will not re-occur again.

 

      

I believe it's also used in some ball games including golf as in '' addressing the ball.' .​

 

This area is probably les contentious than some of the other areas that this topic has strayed into, speaking as a northerner.

 

Jamie

[APOLLO]

 

So, who are "they" exactly?

 

"Them"

 

 

 

"Us"

 

 

 

Coming soon to a line near you soon (though not near London)

 

 

Meanwhile in China

 

 

No words needed - Each picture is worth a thousand words.

 

Brit15

[DavidH]

  The Toxic Debt should never have happened either if the powers that be had been watching and not fuelling the credit boom. What numbscull thought of the idea of loaning people more than 100% (eve 80%) of the asset!

That would be the banks. All private companies at the time. We can agree in retrospect that regulation should have been tougher, but it's easy for everyone to be wise after the event.

 

As far as motorway widening, I'm against that too. The more congestion the better to help put people off the idea that wasting time commuting anywhere makes any sense. How many cars do you see on the roads with only one occupant? How many near;y empty trains outside the rush lemming hours? New railways, new roads, all has the same effect they just fill up and we start with another one.

 

Agree with you on cars - far too many with only one person, but without an effective car-pooling system, or an (undoubtably unpopular and vote-losing) vehicle occupancy tax, solving this, as far as I can see, awaits some of/all of a huge increase in fuel prices/petrol restrictions for personal use/a massive change in the way people behave.

 

Disagree with you on the trains. Nearly empty trains - other than a few branch lines, where are these "nearly empty trains"? I can't say I've done a lot travelling by train in the last 2 years, but I've done so wherever possible outside the peak hours, and the only "nearly empty" train I came across was the Grand Central north of Hartlepool about 2 years ago. Every other train has had (as a rough estimate) around 1/2 occupancy, and Transpennine/East and West Coasts, 75-100+% for much of the journey.

[DavidH]

No words needed - Each picture is worth a thousand words.

 

 

Except you aren't exactly comparing like with like, expecially with the branch/local trains vs. Chinese high-speed. We do have Pendolinos though, and I'm sure the Chinese do have a few grotty regional trains, although that would spoil the amusement value.

[Richard E]

As far as diverting round obstructions goes that is, in many cases, just not possible without taking what can be described as a great way round or a long and nasty way round these days thanks to the reduction in diversionary routes available.

 

Also, in some cases, attempts to upgrade existing lines to provide a diversionary route meet with attempts by those living near (and not so near) to the line to stop such attempts as it will 'disturb their peace'.

[caradoc]

Diverting round a blockage may still occur on the ECML but in most of the country it's now 'stop the shop and put the passengers onto buses' rather than set up diversions, even when the affected trains are diesel. Lack of route knowledge and/or non-availability of staff are just two of the reasons.

 

The British railway network is such that there are very often diversionary routres available, although not usually direct or with the same Operator.

For example, with the wires down north of Peterborough as per last week:

 

London-Grantham: St Pancras, one change at Nottingham

London-Newark: ditto

London-Retford: St Pancras, one change at Sheffield

London-Doncaster: ditto

London-Leeds; ditto, also Euston, one change at Manchester Picc.

London-York and Newcastle; St Pancras, one change at Sheffield, also Euston, one change at Birmingham New St or Manchester Picc.

London-Edinburgh; Euston direct (2 hourly), Euston with one change at Carlisle or Glasgow Central.

 

Although train operators have reciprocal ticket acceptance arrangements for major disruption, how easy these alternative routes are for ordinary (ie non-enthusiast !) passengers to use is another matter, and this is an area where the whole rail industry could and must do better.

[The Stationmaster]

The British railway network is such that there are very often diversionary routres available, although not usually direct or with the same Operator.

For example, with the wires down north of Peterborough as per last week:

 

London-Grantham: St Pancras, one change at Nottingham

London-Newark: ditto

London-Retford: St Pancras, one change at Sheffield

London-Doncaster: ditto

London-Leeds; ditto, also Euston, one change at Manchester Picc.

London-York and Newcastle; St Pancras, one change at Sheffield, also Euston, one change at Birmingham New St or Manchester Picc.

London-Edinburgh; Euston direct (2 hourly), Euston with one change at Carlisle or Glasgow Central.

 

Although train operators have reciprocal ticket acceptance arrangements for major disruption, how easy these alternative routes are for ordinary (ie non-enthusiast !) passengers to use is another matter, and this is an area where the whole rail industry could and must do better.

Actually FGW have been fairly good at this sort of thing both in emergency situations and for pre-planned works.  Thus problems east of Reading see folk directed to Reading - Waterloo trains (also applies to planned work) while Easter this year also saw folk directed to High Wycombe - Marylebone with existing tickets valid.

 

Mind you the other side of the coin is that GWML electrification will see lots of alternative routes effectively out of bounds unless trains have sufficient diesel power to use them.

[Mike Storey]

"Them"

 

 

 

"Us"

 

 

 

Coming soon to a line near you soon (though not near London)

 

 

Meanwhile in China

 

 

No words needed - Each picture is worth a thousand words.

 

Brit15

 

I like it.

 

But, if "they" are the unelected (and occasionally elected) rich and powerful oligarchs (who increasingly do seem to determine how we live our lives, by their actions or inaction, until Putin has the odd one poisoned, because he would rather determine how we live), it would suggest that the best way forward for UK rail, is to get back out of government fiscal limits, and back into their pockets.....This is exactly what DB are now trying to do, but in a different way to the UK. At least until The Revolution, or until Jeremy Corbyn gets elected. See how they run....then!

 

China is now hitting the debt cliff, a bit later than the rest of us, so I suspect there may be slightly fewer, flashy, new trains over there for the foreseeable. Their local networks, whilst often newer than ours, are largely a planning shambles. For their Olympics, just two Rail (metro) lines went near the main stadium. In London we had 11. They have had two high speed accidents causing fatalities, within three years. Europe has had one (IIRC) in thirty years. Perhaps that's how they get these things done so quickly, cheaply and on such a grand scale. As most communist and/or dictatorial regimes have shown, life is cheap to them.

[APOLLO]

Agree with everything you say Mike.

 

I reckon the Them and Us divide will very much widen in the coming years.

 

No use speculating, so much may / will happen to both camps. We will see, "interesting" years ahead.

 

Brit15

[Richard E]

Try a diversionary route from York to Peterborough:

 

York to Sheffield, Sheffield to London, London to Peterborough is the advised route. Then try using it!

[The Stationmaster]

Try a diversionary route from York to Peterborough:

 

York to Sheffield, Sheffield to London, London to Peterborough is the advised route. Then try using it!

Easy - change at Birmingham New St.  Does take a while but you only change trains once and don't have to change stations (albeit just across the road - but try it) in London

[62613]

The facts are that, data and figures openly available for all to read, the Labour government under Blair and Brown’s watch over spent and took the country into debt prior to the so called global financial crisis, approximately £0.5B. Regulation was relaxed and banks and companies took full advantage, that I am sure we can all agree on. However, whilst yes banks should not have offered mortgages and lending to customers that they knew could not afford it, it is time for people to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody forced these people to take the mortgages or loans, so they have to share responsibility! It is like television programmes, people moan about them but there is an off button and so you do not have to watch it! We all make decisions and have to take responsibility! People signed the paperwork for borrowing the money and they too knew what they were undertaking.

 

We as a country are now in a position that we cannot afford to keep borrowing more money, spending it and getting even further in debt. Cuts have to be made across the board including the railways but then of course there are priorities which could be argued should be ring-fenced, depending on individuals this may be the NHS, welfare, education, transport, defence etc, etc.

As John said above, the debt situation needs to be addressed and the fundamental issue is by either raising taxes or cuts in spending. We can all play the blame game as much as we like but that will not get us anywhere! Also John is right, how many people in this country would agree to paying higher taxes when a great deal of the public are feeling the strain financially? Not very many I would think.

 

As mentioned previously, I commute into Liverpool Street and this morning, my unit was a 321 which I believe was built between 1988 and 1991. On very hot days, these are like saunas on wheels!

One thing I will say is that despite investment on the GE, upgrading the signalling and overhead wire equipment, the service has not changed much at all, in my experience. But the ticket prices have increased……..

How many budget surpluses have the present lot run? The previous lot ran 4 out of 9. What is the ratio of deficit to GDP today? It's 5%. It was 2% is 2008 (which is why UK was able to avoid the bank crashes which took place in the USA and elsewhere). What is the debt to GDP ratio today? 60% plus. It was 40% in 2008. Above all have the present lot have done very little to regulate any financial institution

[Ravenser]

The newest Northern Rail units are 16 Class 333s from 2000. The next newest are early 1990s and over 20 years old.

 

Transpennine has 10 Class 350s and 51 Class 185s which are recent.

 

Now, how many hundreds of Desiros, Electrostars (including Capitalstars) are in the South? and how many of those multiple fleets in the south older than any northern ones dont have replacements lined up, such as from the incoming Crossrail or Thameslink fleets.

 

The bulk of the GE outer-suburban fleet is the 321s, dating from 1988-90. The Norwich services are loco hauled Mk3s  of a similar vintage, and Class 90s - same again. All the inner suburban services are in the hands of 315s , from the early 80s.

 

There is talk of new EMUs to replace the Norwich trains, and Crossrail will replace 315s on the Shenfield side , but not the Cambridge side. I'm not aware of any replacement for the 321s. The 315s are now as old as the 306s of sainted memory when they were withdrawn.

 

The GE is the second biggest commuter operation in the South East, after the South Westerrn

[Grimleygrid]

How many budget surpluses have the present lot run? The previous lot ran 4 out of 9. What is the ratio of deficit to GDP today? It's 5%. It was 2% is 2008 (which is why UK was able to avoid the bank crashes which took place in the USA and elsewhere). What is the debt to GDP ratio today? 60% plus. It was 40% in 2008. Above all have the present lot have done very little to regulate any financial institution

There is no doubt that the previous coalition government didn't reduce the budget deficit anywhere near as much as they stated or had hoped. But you could argue that a lot of promises were not met! Why did Labour not get elected in May? Perhaps it was because voters did not trust the party with looking after the economy.

 

I do not want to get into any political argument about which party would have handled the economic situation better or what the coalition should have done. We could argue all day long.

 

As someone that works in the Financilal sector I beg to differ on what has happened with regards to regulation.

 

At the end of the day the country is in debt, the economy is not doing as well as we would have liked and we are spending more than we are getting in from tax receipts. How can we as a country continue on this path? Where is all this extra money going to come from?

As an individual, if I was in debt, run up huge credit card bills and took out loans, and continued to borrow more, and spend more than I earn, the banks would cut off my credit.