Osborne takes knife to Network Rail budget

[Vin]

Anyway, nowt we can do for five years !!

 

Time for a joke. I'm stuck for a caption for this (strange for me !!) - over to you,

 

 

Brit15

"I wonder where those engineers are going to stick that probe next?"

[The Stationmaster]

 I'd agree with every point you make, particularly the one about the cost of TfL services costing more than those outside London, but TfL do have a record of delivering on budget, they just had a much bigger budget to start with!

 

The basis for transferring control of the former NSE routes to London will be that these routes are strategically critical to London, the London Bridge situation has added fuel to the fire of this argument. TfL already have control of some minor services covering routes outside the GLA area so there is a precedent. The reporting structure for those territories outside London, and probably the name as well, will take some sorting but don't underestimate the power the Chancellor seems to have assumed and if there's an outcry, expect the flag of NRs failures at London Bridge to be waved as justification for it. And yes, this probably will be the initial stage of a break up of Network Rail.

Regrettably transferring mainline railways to TfL would be more like a recipe for disaster - they simply don't have the experience or knowledge of how to deal with a busy mixed-traffic railway involving, in many cases, high speed operations.  Before long we will have the experience of GWML with station responsibilities for some stations transferred to Crossrail - quite how that is going to work when a 2-track railway is being run for engineering work remains to be seen, let alone what TfL might happen to think about 4-5,000 tonne freight trains mixing it among they're 'high density' emus and thundering past their stations.  It might form an interesting experiment for the future but unfortunately divided infrastructure management has never really worked well on Britain's railways in the past and I can't really see it being any more successful in the future - a mix of train operators sharing a  route is one thing, but different people owning their own little part of a route is quite another.  

 

And to be quite blunt in view of Crossrail's apparent intentions for its trains - which are hardly likely to be suited to near 40 mile journeys - I wouldn't have much faith in TfL's ability to manage something other than a wholly urban commuter oriented railway.

[PhilJ W]

Anyway, nowt we can do for five years !!

 

Time for a joke. I'm stuck for a caption for this (strange for me !!) - over to you,

 

 

Brit15

Your going to stick it WHERE!

[Edwin_m]

Osborne is taking the axle to the budget. 

[Mad McCann]

Anyway, nowt we can do for five years !!

 

Time for a joke. I'm stuck for a caption for this (strange for me !!) - over to you,

 

 

Brit15

 

How the hell can I possibly chop a line with that..?

[Mad McCann]

You mean deficit not debt

image.jpg

This thread unfortunately heading the way of politics. I'm apolitical but I hope our railways continue to be invested in as we need to catch up with Europe.

Neil

Neil; the article concerns actions by a politician adversely affecting publicly owned infrastructure, the entire thread is by definition political; to ignore that significant point is to disregard an elephant in the room.

For my money's worth I consider it just another wallet's worth in the greatest global distraction theft in history.

 

Dave.

[Kenton]

 

So I just imagined that the National Debt hasn't doubled over the last five years. The man is economically illiterate.

When an idiot makes a snowball at the top of a mountain and rolls it off down the cliff, it takes either a brave man or another idiot to stand in its way before it obliterates the pretty village in the valley below.

[brushman47544]

Now why would he be wearing a blue Hi Vi rather than the more usual orange?

[petethemole]

He doesn't want to be mistaken for a Lib-Dem.

[Mad McCann]

Not that there's any discernible difference these days. ;-)

[Mad McCann]

 

When an idiot makes a snowball at the top of a mountain and rolls it off down the cliff, it takes either a brave man or another idiot to stand in its way before it obliterates the pretty village in the valley below.

Problem is, the idiots who created the snowball in the first place walked away with their pockets full, leaving the people of the shattered village to pay for the idiots' recklessness.

 

Dave.

[meil]

I would like to know why everyone gets so excited about electrification of routes?

 

With the advances in engine efficiency and the possibility of electro diesel/battery surely the case for expending vast amounts of money despoiling the country side with miles of steel masts and copper wire is rapidly decreasing?

[david.hill64]

Diesel engines and batteries will always carry a weight penalty because of the requirement to carry your own fuel source around. Except on lightly used routes where diesel and/or battery power vehicles will continue to make sense, the advantages of electric traction, with lighter vehicles and the ability to regenerate into the power distribution network will be a major plus. Especially as energy conservation is seen as one of the major thrusts for development. Add to that the higher reliability and availability of the electric train over diesel and the advantages will always outweigh the perceived visual intrusion of the knitting.

[jamie92208]

As to the picture of Osbourne and the wheelset, I can't better any of the captions but IIRC from a tour of the Wabtec wheelshop at Doncaster (The old GNR erecting shop), that 'probe' is pressurised to several thousand psi and I wouldn't want to be standing looking at it if something let go.

 

Jamie

[APOLLO]

In Wigan we have the newly electrified line to Liverpool via St Helens. 2 trains per hour, an express 2 car DMU Blackpool - Preston (not electrified), down the WCML to Wigan, - St Helens - Huyton - Liverpool and a stopper, now a 4 car class 319 EMU, takes just under an hour and calls at the 11 or so intermediate stations.

 

Not very good. The  2 car expresses are packed to the gunnels (sometimes a pacer) and the 4 car EMU stoppers though well used, are hardly ever full (except at peak)

 

I wonder if Preston - Blackpool will get the chop. Manchester to Preston via Bolton is well underway. Bolton to Wigan NW was announced for wiring, I reckon this will get the chop.

 

Not a clue our Government. North of Watford doesn't exist for them.

 

Large drops in the markets this morning, the bankers won't be pleased, they will want ever more and more cuts to feed their greed. Lots more pain to come, not just in rail investment either.

 

Train of the future.

 

 

Brit15

[Richard E]

Market falls today are down to concerns about the Chinese economy which is suddenly looking rather fragile so any project, 12" to the foot or model, looking that way for investment is likely to suffer.

[woodenhead]

I would like to know why everyone gets so excited about electrification of routes?

 

With the advances in engine efficiency and the possibility of electro diesel/battery surely the case for expending vast amounts of money despoiling the country side with miles of steel masts and copper wire is rapidly decreasing?

They said the same about steam, well Riddles thought that so whilst everyone else was stringing Europe we built steam engines, then tried diesels as the next stop gap.  At some point we have to string and do it properly.

[Siberian Snooper]

Any cuts like that will be pretty much the final nail in the coffin for a Dawlish diversionary route for some considerable time, I'll be lucky if I live to see it now.

[woodenhead]

Any cuts like that will be pretty much the final nail in the coffin for a Dawlish diversionary route for some considerable time, I'll be lucky if I live to see it now.

I suppose the way to look at this would be how important the diversionary route is compared to other projects and prioritise accordingly.

 

Weather plays a big part in this, with the sea wall now rebuilt and strengthened - is it as susceptible to being breached, would the diversionary route bring in new money or will it require subsidy from a cash strapped NR.

 

There are other schemes no doubt that will also have to be re-appraised - the East-West route to Cambridge, will it stop at Bletchley?  The strategic freight spine with OHLE being put up over 3rd rail in the south - the class 66s are under 30 years and not seeing as much use as they were, perhaps this can be delayed as not only did NR have to string it, the freight companies had to purchase suitable electric and bi-mode traction to use electric on the mainline and last mile diesel engines for those routes with a bit of wire missing.

 

There is a lot of focus on Blackpool and the Trans Pennine routes but they are not the only schemes in planning, MML has to be done at some point too, those HSTs won't last forever and I don't see anymore voyager type trains coming.

 

All this of course is Capex which is different to normal day to day running expenditure which is the most likely target for any reductions - do it better, do it cheaper will be the mantra and that may of course lead to more Capex to improve things - reducing the manpower will be the easiest target but to do that will require investment in new equipment to replace those roles without a repeat of the disastrous Hi Output Wiring train.

['CHARD]

......., MML has to be done at some point too, those HSTs won't last forever and I don't see anymore voyager type trains coming.

 

Quite true, but there will at least be some re-engined high-numbered power cars coming available ex-Great Western.  So at least the VP185s could be replaced with MTU power.

[GordonC]

If we're looking at cuts ... why is HS2 not getting booted into the long grass like the other schemes?

[woodenhead]

If we're looking at cuts ... why is HS2 not getting booted into the long grass like the other schemes?

HS2 is actually a typical recession busting government expenditure exercise - it generates jobs, keeps industry/infrastructure running whilst things are flat elsewhere.

 

There are a lot of skilled engineers, builders etc who are required for schemes like this, if we don't keep building then we lose the skills - HS1 and CrossRail are examples of how good the British can be when it comes to building (lessons learnt from the Chunnel).  We're world class at this now so a big railway scheme like HS2 and the NR work is actually building an industry we can export abroad which is great for the balance of payments.    My niece is a civil engineer, she travels all over the world with her work, our skills are in demand.

[GordonC]

HS2 is actually a typical recession busting government expenditure exercise - it generates jobs, keeps industry/infrastructure running whilst things are flat elsewhere.

 

There are a lot of skilled engineers, builders etc who are required for schemes like this, if we don't keep building then we lose the skills - HS1 and CrossRail are examples of how good the British can be when it comes to building (lessons learnt from the Chunnel).  We're world class at this now so a big railway scheme like HS2 and the NR work is actually building an industry we can export abroad which is great for the balance of payments.    My niece is a civil engineer, she travels all over the world with her work, our skills are in demand.

 

but are the benefits not questionable compared to the vast cost? surely some of the infill projects have a better rate of return than HS2 and still generate jobs and skills etc

[Kenton]

 

If we're looking at cuts ... why is HS2 not getting booted into the long grass like the other schemes?

aha! the white elephant in the room!

[Glorious NSE]

but are the benefits not questionable compared to the vast cost? surely some of the infill projects have a better rate of return than HS2 and still generate jobs and skills etc

I have a feeling one of the reasons the TP electrification is "paused" is that there may be a bigger, better result possible* by using parts of HS2...

 

(*IE a better service than "what you have now, but under wires...)