New Layout - 'Hufeisental'

[PaulCheffus]

 

All up we've lost about £775 on cancelled reservations, hotel costs and the Eurostar fare.  My wife can't talk about it yet and the next time I do an Interrail trip (which I probably will) I'm going to avoid going through France on any part of it!

 

 

Hi

 

Although nowhere near as bad as your trip we went to Italy by rail in May / June 2016. The problems started with a late Eurostar leaving St Pancras and by the time we got to Paris we have 45 minutes to get to Gare de Lyon. We caught the train to Basel with around 2 minutes to spare. The rest of the trip was ok until it was time to come back into France. We left Milan at 5pm with an expected arrival at Ventimiglia of 9:30 to find that our onward train to Monaco had been cancelled. Luckily after we arrived in Ventimiglia there were taxis available 70euro (rail tickets were 6euro for the pair of us). We decided to ignore our problems the following day and enjoy Monaco.

 

Trying to get back to Paris from Monaco was not fun. Our train to Nice had been cancelled but luckily we were able to get an earlier one. The TGV from Nice to Paris was the only train to Paris not cancelled so everyone was on it and the catering car was closed. Six hours with only 1/2L of water each. Once we reached Paris we found the RER wasn't running. My wife managed to get us a taxi another 40euro (RER tickets were 4.20 euro for us pre bought on the outbound Eurostar) and we got to Gare Du Nord with minutes to spare.

 

Never again will I travel by train through France.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi

 

Although nowhere near as bad as your trip we went to Italy by rail in May / June 2016. The problems started with a late Eurostar leaving St Pancras and by the time we got to Paris we have 45 minutes to get to Gare de Lyon. We caught the train to Basel with around 2 minutes to spare. The rest of the trip was ok until it was time to come back into France. We left Milan at 5pm with an expected arrival at Ventimiglia of 9:30 to find that our onward train to Monaco had been cancelled. Luckily after we arrived in Ventimiglia there were taxis available 70euro (rail tickets were 6euro for the pair of us). We decided to ignore our problems the following day and enjoy Monaco.

 

Trying to get back to Paris from Monaco was not fun. Our train to Nice had been cancelled but luckily we were able to get an earlier one. The TGV from Nice to Paris was the only train to Paris not cancelled so everyone was on it and the catering car was closed. Six hours with only 1/2L of water each. Once we reached Paris we found the RER wasn't running. My wife managed to get us a taxi another 40euro (RER tickets were 4.20 euro for us pre bought on the outbound Eurostar) and we got to Gare Du Nord with minutes to spare.

 

Never again will I travel by train through France.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Hi Paul,

 

Another bad experience and I thought it was only us. I also found that booking reservations through France using a Global Interrail pass was really difficult. For a start, if you cross an international border into or out of France on TGV lines, then they charge full fare. To get around this you have to find a way across the border on local trains, then reserve a TGV seat from there. It's a real awkward way to travel in order to benefit from the Interrail pass and I just can't see why they do it that way.

 

To me France is worth avoiding altogether and in future I'll be inclined to go via Brussels and into Germany to get south.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

It seems bad order for me to focus only on the negative parts of our recent Interrail holiday. Now that the tension caused by those awkward changes in our plans, missed connections and unexpected costs has receded, I can say that overall we had some great times, visited some fantastic places and travelled through some outstanding scenery.

 

We visited lovely Koblenz and the Rhine valley on our outbound journey and again the Rhine and Cochem on the Mosel on the way home. Both outstanding places and highly recommended.

 

Our couple of days at Lake Lucerne was highlighted by gorgeous weather and an excellent day out by boat (50% discount with our Interrail passes) and a trip on the steep cog railway up to the top of Mount Pilatus (25% discount). The lake trip, railway up the mountain and the stunning views from the top were awesome and I can fully recommend this trip.

 

Our journey further south included an overnight in Tirano which we found to be a most relaxing spot for a nice evening meal and a glass of (not too expensive) wine. Note- most anything after a stay in Lucerne wiĺl be cheap in comparison!

 

The following morning we had a lovely trip from there down to Milan courtesy of the Italian Trenord railway. The trip follows the shores of lake Como so really pleasant scenery - although we didn't rate the Trenord train very highly, a bit dated and scruffy compared to some. This trip covered our anniversary and because of that we treated ourselves to 1st Class Interrail tickets. On the Trenord there was no noticeable different between 1st and standard class. It was quite interesting how the 1st and standard class services and standards differed in the different countries we travelled through - could be a general travel thread in its own right that.

 

Milan station (where we changed for Venice), is an architecturally awesome building, and was probably the most packed space I've ever been in apart from at concerts. There must have been thousands and thousands of people there. (Annoyingly the missus needed to find the loo which took us about 40 minutes to struggle through the dense crowds from platform 4 up to near platform 21 and then back to platform 5 for our connection to Venice!)

 

The trip from there to Venice was courtesy of the fabulous Italiarail Frecciarosa - a smart, fast and luxurious train oozing with class and luxury. Our seats were soft comfortable black leather with electric recliners, privacy glass surrounds and waiter service available, complimentary coffee. Very nice indeed.

 

And to Venice, our furthest point. Well, Venice is er.. Venice. Busy, intriguing, fabulous architecture and history. Luckily we were quite near to Venice St Lucia station so it wasn't too far to haul cases.

Whilst there we opted for a 24 pass for the water buses. This was great as we were able to get out of the main city for a bit and travel round the surrounding islands. A good bargain we thought for 20 Euros a head. We were able to buy these on my smart phone and download electronic passes- I've said earlier my smartphone has been absolutely invaluable on this trip.

 

After a very nice 3 nights there we headed off back through Milan and changed there for our trip to Grindelwald, Switzerland, opting to jump off at Brig and take the overland scenic route to Spiez. This was a lovely trip over the Alps and was recommended by a member earlier on in the thread. Thanks for that it was well worth doing it that way.

 

Grindelwald was wonderful. What a stunning place with so much to do there and so much I didn't do! I could have spent a week there just seeing all the different spots - I may well put it on the radar for a re-visit in the future. Our last evening there was special as the town holds a folklore fest every Wednesday during July and August, we just caught the first of them. Sitting there enjoying a meal when the road was closed off, tressel tables set up in the road followed by entertainment from oompah bands, alpine horn players, local music groups, yodellers and more. An excellent evening.

 

After that is when our plans changed and instead of heading over the hills on the Golden Pass to Lausanne we went north again up the Rhine and down the Mosel to Cochem where we spent a great couple of days before heading home.

 

All up, some most enjoyable times. A final note on going 1st Class: it cost about £80 a head more than standard for the Interrail tickets - so well worth that in our books. The best 1st Class train in terms of service - Virgin trains on the LNER route Darlington to Kings Cross and back.

 

Cheers ... Alan

Edited July 11, 2018 by Alan Kettlewell

[eastwestdivide]

Thanks for the "flip side of the coin" report.

 

Oddly, I didn't rate my Virgin 1st class experience Doncaster-London and back on my recent Interrail that highly. The ride (HST both ways) was pretty dodgy, bouncing around, the "gourmet sausage roll" on the return was pretty run of the mill, and no tea from KX until Newark was a bit poor for a 1630-odd departure.

 

I would rate the Austrian Railjets highly for on-board service (food on china plates with metal cutlery, beer in chilled glasses...), and the Swiss (ex-Gotthard) panorama cars that crop up on various international EC services for comfort (although the curved glass doesn't help photography).

 

On the local services across Europe, most of which have some first class provision, if you're on a 1st interrail, you generally get a much better chance of a good choice of seat, even if that seat isn't that different to 2nd.

 

PS "Seat 61" says the site (https://en.oui.sncf/en/pass/seat-reservation) that makes the bookings for Interrail supplements on French services (e.g. to/from Italy) is a bit flaky and sometimes shows full prices - as borne out by your experience.

From https://www.seat61.com/InterRail-pass-guide.htm#How%20to%20make%20reservations%20with%20an%20InterRail%20pass

Be very careful, the system is temperamental and for some reason often just shows regular fares,  not passholder reservations.  You expect to see €10 and €20 passholder reservations for French domestic TGVs, right?  Well, if you see €66 and €79 and what-have-you fares, those are regular fares and it's not showing passholder reservations.  Keep your wits about you!

Edited July 11, 2018 by eastwestdivide

[Alan Kettlewell]

Thanks for the "flip side of the coin" report.

 

Oddly, I didn't rate my Virgin 1st class experience Doncaster-London and back on my recent Interrail that highly. The ride (HST both ways) was pretty dodgy, bouncing around, the "gourmet sausage roll" on the return was pretty run of the mill, and no tea from KX until Newark was a bit poor for a 1630-odd departure.

 

I would rate the Austrian Railjets highly for on-board service (food on china plates with metal cutlery, beer in chilled glasses...), and the Swiss (ex-Gotthard) panorama cars that crop up on various international EC services for comfort (although the curved glass doesn't help photography).

 

On the local services across Europe, most of which have some first class provision, if you're on a 1st interrail, you generally get a much better chance of a good choice of seat, even if that seat isn't that different to 2nd.

 

PS "Seat 61" says the site (https://en.oui.sncf/en/pass/seat-reservation) that makes the bookings for Interrail supplements on French services (e.g. to/from Italy) is a bit flaky and sometimes shows full prices - as borne out by your experience.

From https://www.seat61.com/InterRail-pass-guide.htm#How%20to%20make%20reservations%20with%20an%20InterRail%20pass

 

We did well on the Virgin trains - we left early on the outbound trip and were served with a full English breakfast, coffee etc and on the way back on the 1900 from Kings X it was coffee, cold drinks and sandwiches.  Haven't travelled 1st on the Austrian railways but that sounds good.  Have to agree that even where there are no 'services' at all eg the Swiss trains we travelled on, the choice of seating, standard and less full, quieter coaches were better and worth the extra.

 

I read 'The Man in Seat 61' site comprehensibly and found it to be packed full of useful information - which I referred back to a few times during my recent trip(s) - very handy indeed.

 

Cheers .. Alan 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Alan Kettlewell

[GoingUnderground]

We did well on the Virgin trains - we left early on the outbound trip and were served with a full English breakfast, coffee etc and on the way back on the 1900 from Kings X it was coffee, cold drinks and sandwiches.  Haven't travelled 1st on the Austrian railways but that sounds good.  Have to agree that even where there are no 'services' at all eg the Swiss trains we travelled on, the choice of seating, standard and less full, quieter coaches were better and worth the extra.

 

I read 'The Man in Seat 61' site comprehensibly and found it to be packed full of useful information - which I referred back to a few times during my recent trip(s) - very handy indeed.

 

Cheers .. Alan 

My wife hadn't booked anything via the internet until after a Great Rail holiday to Switzerland about 10 years ago, during which one of our fellow holidaymakers told her about Mark Smith's "Seat61.com" website. She read everything on it, and since then books all our European and N. American trains and hotels online herself, and she never used computers when she was at work. We can't recommend Mark Smith's "The Man in Seat 61" website highly enough. 

Edited July 13, 2018 by GoingUnderground

[Dixie Dean]

I hope you don't mind me going off topic a bit Alan!  I must admit that although I'm a big railway fan my wife and I rarely travel by train unless it is when we are holiday in Austria, Germany, Switzerland or Italy and then only for day trips or on the outward trip of a cycling day out.  We usually going abroad by car with our caravan which is a lot more flexible.  One of things I'm hoping to do on our next trip is to visit a couple of model railways, one is this: 

(a Swiss based, modeller's railway, which is in a house south of Frankfurt in Germany) and another is this: 

(open to the public, just in Germany but by Salzburg - worth watching right through, including the night time section!)

 

I love the Lötschberg route you mentioned Alan, and in 2001 was very privileged to have a ride in the cab over the old mountain route from Speiz to Brig and back in a class 460, plus a couple of trips on the Kandersteg to Goppenstein car transporters in one of the Brownies "Court".  I also spend a day on the Gotthard route a few years ago: 

Great memories! Edited July 21, 2018 by Dixie Dean

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Dixie,

 

Great videos thanks and I can highly recommend a visit to the Hans Peter Porsche museum near Salzburg, I was there in April this year (see posts a couple of pages back). The whole place is quite awesome, some of the scenery is 5 metres high and as you see on the videos the night scene is great. The whole moving video backdrop is very clever and features planes, helicopters and balloons in flight, plus weather patterns and lightning storm. Very impressive. It's a little awkward to get to though without a car as it's halfway between Teisendorf and Reichenhall. On the train it's marginally better to get to Reichenhall and catch a bus or taxi (taxi about 20 euros).

 

In addition there are vintage toys and cars to see, plus a cafe.

 

Definitely recommended.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[Dixie Dean]

Thanks Alan.  Fortunately, we will be going by car, so hopefully not a problem.  Looking forward to both of them.  If I'm ever up your way I would love to see yours.  Another layout that I think you will also find interesting, and which also has been very inspirational for me, as I am having to build my layout in a single garage with only about 33" vertical to use, is this: 

I love the way he has literally shoehorned it into a 3 x 2 metre room, but used every inch of its height! Edited July 21, 2018 by Dixie Dean

[Vecchio]

I hope you don't mind me going off topic a bit Alan!  I must admit that although I'm a big railway fan my wife and I rarely travel by train unless it is when we are holiday in Austria, Germany, Switzerland or Italy and then only for day trips or on the outward trip of a cycling day out.  We usually going abroad by car with our caravan which is a lot more flexible.  One of things I'm hoping to do on our next trip is to visit a couple of model railways, one is this: 

(a Swiss based, modeller's railway, which is in a house south of Frankfurt in Germany) and another is this: 

(open to the public, just in Germany but by Salzburg - worth watching right through, including the night time section!)

 

I love the Lötschberg route you mentioned Alan, and in 2001 was very privileged to have a ride in the cab over the old mountain route from Speiz to Brig and back in a class 460, plus a couple of trips on the Kandersteg to Goppenstein car transporters in one of the Brownies "Court".  I also spend a day on the Gotthard route a few years ago: 

Great memories!

 

Some cracking videos! Now I was sitting almost 2 hours in front of the screen instead of working on my own layout... 

[Alan Kettlewell]

Thanks Alan.  Fortunately, we will be going by car, so hopefully not a problem.  Looking forward to both of them.  If I'm ever up your way I would love to see yours.  Another layout that I think you will also find interesting, and which also has been very inspirational for me, as I am having to build my layout in a single garage with only about 33" vertical to use, is this: 

I love the way he has literally shoehorned it into a 3 x 2 metre room, but used every inch of its height!

 

You will be very welcome to visit - the kettle is on already.

 

I liked the videos you posted up, that last one reminds me of a few US layouts I've seen (on the web) where they seem to favour the 'layout on a shelf above' style to get more mileage in around the room.  Standing back and looking at the overall scene I guess it looks a bit unrealistic, but viewing each area or layer as individual scenes it works ok.

 

I hope your forthcoming trip goes well.  

 

Cheers … Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi All,

 

Apologies I haven't posted up progress recently.  I have been down the shed but lately I've been continuing with track ballasting - an uninteresting topic for some I guess. 

 

A few weeks ago I ballasted the complex station throat pointwork at the east end of the main station, there are several double slips there so I then had to spend some time freeing them all up - absolutely essential especially when running under automatic computer control.  That of course lead to lots of playtime operating to test it works alright.  That end is done now, tested and operating correctly, I'm currently doing the opposite end where there are also several double and a single slip.  Extra care needed when ballasting and gluing around those small blades and tie bars.

 

At the same time I've also progressed with painting the rails - seems like a never ending job!  For this I've made up a suitable deep rust colour that I'll use all over the layout, bar a few places such as yards and platform ends where locos stand, these spots I'll add more black and grime generally.

 

Here's some I slapped on earlier:

 

Tops cleaned off:

 

Cheers ... Alan

 

 

[Alan Kettlewell]

More on Ballasting …

 

Overall I'm not too happy with my choice of ballast colour this time.  I'm using the mixed grey bought in bottles from Woodland Scenics but I'm thinking it looks a bit too 'new'.  Nothing wrong with that if you happen to model a layout where new ballast has been laid very recently.  But on reflection I prefer a more dirty and brown look.  

 

Not a big drama to fix that but (annoyingly) requires some more time throwing at it when I could be getting on with other things.  I've set about it fixing it by giving it a light brush over with a wash of diluted dirty brown paint.  Here's a shot of a section so treated but I'll do it again to improve further:

 

I'll make it even darker with better cover in the station area.

 

 

 

[Vecchio]

You can fix that best with an air brush. Works well and doesn't take too much time. But if you are in a station or shunting yard area - big batches of track are renewed there sometimes - so it is not a problem having a lot of new ballasted track. I see you are busy!

  I take tomorrow off so I can get some progress into my (in comparison rather small) layout...

[Alan Kettlewell]

You can fix that best with an air brush. Works well and doesn't take too much time. But if you are in a station or shunting yard area - big batches of track are renewed there sometimes - so it is not a problem having a lot of new ballasted track. I see you are busy!

  I take tomorrow off so I can get some progress into my (in comparison rather small) layout...

Yes you're quite right. Unfortunately I'm suffering from a bout of bone idleness (nothing new there) and can't be bothered to de-install my airbrush, compressor and associated kit from its spot at my work bench up in my modelling room in the house (So lazy sometimes!)

 

Also I've been impatient and gone ahead and built the station before doing all the track ballasting. Sometimes I'm my own worst enemy. So to use the airbrush now for this I'd need to do a lot of masking up. But I wish now I had exercised more restraint. Note to self - there's no rush, do things properly!

 

Anyway, fortunately going over the track and ballast with a wet brush is quite quick and I hope will make the improvement I'm seeking. Here's a bit in the foreground I've done so far:

 

Cheers... Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

Often after ballasting and when looking from a low level along the track, one thing that catches my eye is where ballast has accumulated between the sleepers, usually near the rails, and sometimes shows above the sleepers.  I find this jars the eye a bit.  I use a latex type glue to stick down my ballast and it has an advantage that the ballast stays a little 'springy' after setting.  With this in mind I made this small tool out of plastic - it's purpose is to push down the ballast where it protrudes above sleeper level:

 

 

 

  

 

It's a bit tedious doing so much track but the results are good, certainly an improvement.  In this shot I've used the 'pusher' on the two tracks on the left but not the right, you can see the right hand tracks look a bit untidy:

 

 

Great - only another few thousand to go .. lol

 

Cheers … Alan

 

Edit:  This is done after the glue has set, I wouldn't be able to do this if I use the more typical PVA glue as it sets rock solid. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Alan Kettlewell

[Vecchio]

Yes with the PVA you have to brush the ballast into position before you wet it with the glue solution as otherwise the flanges of especially older locomotives will "ride" on the stones. Short time ago I did our 0 gauge club layout - even not too big it consumed approximately 10 kg of ballast....

[Alan Kettlewell]

Yes with the PVA you have to brush the ballast into position before you wet it with the glue solution as otherwise the flanges of especially older locomotives will "ride" on the stones. Short time ago I did our 0 gauge club layout - even not too big it consumed approximately 10 kg of ballast....

I find even after carefully brushing it in position, I still get some that ends up above the sleepers or too high near the inside of the rails. I guess if I was doing a small layout I could spend a lot more time and take more care. For speed I use a ballast spreader and I think this perhaps deposits a bit too much, causing a lot of brushing to and fro. I only do about 30-40cms at a time but it still seems a chore to me.

 

Oh well, at least the main station area is now almost done and the tracks on level 2 and 3 on that side. There's still the other side of the layout to do but most of that is open country double track, not too much pointwork there.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

Yes with the PVA you have to brush the ballast into position before you wet it with the glue solution as otherwise the flanges of especially older locomotives will "ride" on the stones. Short time ago I did our 0 gauge club layout - even not too big it consumed approximately 10 kg of ballast....

I've used PVA on previous large OO layouts I've built and I found where there are long trains running around at speed the noise is quite a racket. This is the main reason I now use the Latex based glue - it really makes quite a difference. Other techniques I employ to reduce noise include the use of underlay on the boards (the type used under wooden flooring) and open style baseboard construction where possible. It also helps to remove track pins after the glue has set.

 

I think the last layout (00) consumed 8 jars of Woodland Scenics ballast. I reckon this layout will use about the same.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[GoingUnderground]

Thanks Alan. Fortunately, we will be going by car, so hopefully not a problem. Looking forward to both of them. If I'm ever up your way I would love to see yours. Another layout that I think you will also find interesting, and which also has been very inspirational for me, as I am having to build my layout in a single garage with only about 33" vertical to use, is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjl1Az7yO6U I love the way he has literally shoehorned it into a 3 x 2 metre room, but used every inch of its height!

An object lesson on how to get a quart into a pint pot.

[TT-Pete]

"Latex glue" -  Is that Copydex by any chance? Do you dilute it, if so, what with?

[Alan Kettlewell]

"Latex glue" -  Is that Copydex by any chance? Do you dilute it, if so, what with?

 

HI,

 

It's very much like Copydex but I searched around to find something a bit cheaper as I'll need a lot of it.  I got a 5L tub of it.  Here's a link to an older post with a picture of what I bought:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102367-new-layout-hufeisental/?p=2366346

 

It works exactly the same as Copydex and PVA in that you dilute it with water and add a bit of washing up liquid.  I use it 50/50 glue/water.  Works a treat although it's a bit smelly (like Copydex) at first.

 

Cheers … Alan

[TT-Pete]

HI,

 

It's very much like Copydex but I searched around to find something a bit cheaper as I'll need a lot of it.  I got a 5L tub of it.  Here's a link to an older post with a picture of what I bought:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102367-new-layout-hufeisental/?p=2366346

 

It works exactly the same as Copydex and PVA in that you dilute it with water and add a bit of washing up liquid.  I use it 50/50 glue/water.  Works a treat although it's a bit smelly (like Copydex) at first.

 

Cheers … Alan

 

Alan,

 

Many thanks for that, I'll be giving that a go I think. BTW the link in your original post for STK800 has changed to: http://www.pwflooring.co.uk/adhesives/stk-800.html

 

Personally I love the smell of Copydex, takes me right back to primary school...

 

Peter

[GoingUnderground]

Pedant mode on. I think you mean a bow-string girder bridge. Despite the long-lived Triang model, I can't think of a suspension bridge with a railway over it (must check the one in Lisbon).

The Brooklyn Bridge in New York is a suspension bridge. It was built with 2 tracks, and also had rails in the roadway for trams.

 

The tracks were removed in 1944 to create extra lanes for vehicle traffic, and the trams went in 1950.

 

Construction started in 1869, and it opened in 1883. So there is a prcedent for a Victorian suspension bridge carrying a railway.

 

Added:

But it wasn't the first railway suspension bridge.

 

That honour goes to the Niagara Falls Suspension Bridge which opened in 1855 and was used until 1897, when it was replaced by the Whirlpool Rapids steel arch bridge due to the increasing weight of trains.

 

The US manufacturer or steel ropes John Augustus Roebling was involved I the completion of the Niagra Falls bridge, but he was the originator and designer of the Brooklyn Bridge.

 

The Brooklyn Bridge wasn't the first suspension bridge, but it was the first where cables were used, previous suspension bridges, such as the Clifton Bridge, had used chains.

 

Both the Niagara Falls and Brooklyn Bridges were combined road and rail bridges.

 

So now there are at least 2 precedents for a railway suspension bridge, and perhaps Triang's bridge shouldn't be regarded as quite so unlikely after all. 

 

With thanks to "Impossible Engineering", and Wikipedia.

Edited July 25, 2018 by GoingUnderground

[Alan Kettlewell]

Alan,

 

Many thanks for that, I'll be giving that a go I think. BTW the link in your original post for STK800 has changed to: http://www.pwflooring.co.uk/adhesives/stk-800.html

 

Personally I love the smell of Copydex, takes me right back to primary school...

 

Peter

 

Followed the link - I think I paid £21 so it's a bit less now …

 

Cheers … Alan