Bachmann announce Class 117 and Class 121 at Collectors Club event

[Metr0Land]

Yes - but the Wycombe Branch (i.e. the branch between Maidenhead and High Wycombe) was closed beyond Bourne End in 1970.

 

Apols - I should have noticed the date.  My excuse is I didn't move to Wycombe until Nov 75!

[cromptonnut]

117's also saw some use on the Reading - Redhill - Tonbridge services apparently.

[Metr0Land]

 

And in answer to Metroland, I have several shots taken at Slough with 104s and 101s in all sorts of combinations with 117s and 121s etc. In NSE days, as the WR became a dumping ground for DMUs, the fleet was - frankly - a mess. Can't imagine many folk wanting to model it any more than they would want to model steam filthy and with names and numbers missing.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

A 104/101 combo at Furze Platt

 

00544 DMU by Railway Studies, on Flickr

 

And so we don't have too much thread drift, from the 'prototype for everything files' a Hymek at Cookham rescuing a DMU.  Hard to tell if it's 117 or 121 from this view but one or the other.

 

https://flic.kr/p/d2aJS9

[dibber25]

A few thoughts about details from the time I started spotting at Iver in 1962. Those who have more of the facts at their finger tips may like to re-inforce or dispute these memories. In any case - the Bachmann research guys might find them useful as they might affect tooling variations..

These are entirely random in order:

As delivered new, some 117s had marker lights and some did not.

Some had round buffers and others had the 'cut' version with a flat top and bottom edge. I don't recall ovals on either class until later in their careers.

Some were unlined though all had the whiskers.

As delivered, the centre windscreen destination boxes were 'wood finish' - the grey paint came much later.

As delivered, the 117s were non-gangwayed. Gangways were fitted later to allow 2nd class passengers access to the toilet in the centre car. Fitting of gangways started when some units were still green but by no means all units received gangways while in green. 

As a result of the plan to divert the Staines branch into Staines Central, some blinds just carried 'STAINES' while others carried 'STAINES WEST'

The green used on 117s and 121s was a VERY dark green green which quickly turned even darker and acquired a matt finish in traffic. There were WAY more than two shades of green used on early DMUs. The centre car we were shown yesterday at Winchcombe in the paint shop looks beautiful but the green is not dark enough!

As they were post-1960 deliveries none carried the earlier light green of the 122s and 116s.

Some units were lettered on the ends with a warning about ATC clip-up gear for use when running over LT fourth rail.

Units in 'post-all rail blue' liveries will need a slide in the tool for the heating vent grilles in the bodyside, put in when the units were refurbished and turned out in the awful white with a blue stripe.

Discussion welcome.....

CHRIS LEIGH

Here's a pic to be going on with. It's my photo, so please, no use elsewhere!

 

 

Edited September 6, 2015 by dibber25

[wombatofludham]

I don't think just because the immediate pre-Turbo era of the Thames line NSE operation was "messy" we should assume it's not of interest to some.  That variety, the mix-and-match, will-it-work uncertainty actually makes for a more varied and interesting scene even if as a user it was a desperate situation.  When the 323s were having perrenial hissy-fits on the Cross City in Birmingham, and Tyseley were under the cosh trying to keep the service going with the remains of the 115/116/117/118 and 119 fleets, as a user of the line it made for appalling travelling conditions but it was a fascinating time to have experienced.  I'm planning to model that interesting period in 1967-8 when AC electrics and blue/grey mark 2 coaches worked alongside filthy green diesels and nameless, dirt encrusted steam worked freights in and around the north Staffs/Cheshire region, so some of us do actually think such scenes are worth modelling simply because of the variety and nostalgia.

 

I for one am pleased that the 117 is coming, I do have fond memories of them when they first worked out of Tyseley as if one turned up at Lichfield I could at least have a nice ride in first class.  They also got out and about working long haul services in the summer during the mid to late 1980s, to places like North Wales, Lincolnshire and even Great Yarmouth, so certainly in blue and grey they can be used on a wide range of layouts. In fact they were not total strangers to the Midlands in the 1970s in rail blue, they often turned up at New Street via Worcester or Oxford despite not being allocated locally.

[Southernman46]

Weren't the W562xx trailers going to be modelled with these too or did I dream that ?

[GordonC]

I'm surprised the Class 117 was picked when it has been done before by Lima ... yes I know the standard will be far higher now, but I'm surprised the more numerous 116s weren't chosen to be done first.

 

Also are there many differences between the 116/117/118 which have been raised here already and the 115s?  Were the 115s always 4 car sets? and even the Class 125s - were they more different on the underframe being diesel hydraulic rather than diesel mechanical?

[The Black Hat]

The 117 and 121 are both good choices and the tie in with Kernow looks interesting. No doubt such Western region limited editions will be sure to be popular. 

 

Bachmann must have been having a right good chuckle with the pre-announcement list, especially given that the stock list produced for the line failed to mention the DMU that ended up being the subject of choice. No doubt thats influenced by those still wanting yet more steam engines done, but I think Bachmann are right to continue to develop and corner the market for 1st gen DMU sets that underpin yet more services and diagrams in that transition period layout that still remains popular. 

[Legend]

That there is to be a decent WR dmu has to be good news.  Given that we are supposed to be modellers, the class chosen is relatively unimportant.  As far as the power cars are concerned the 116 is a 117 without the headcode box and a 118 is a 117 with a slightly different headcode box.  Granted, the 116 trailer is different from those of the other classes but I can think of at least one instance where a 118 trailer was formed between a pair of 116 power cars.

 

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris. That being the case , couldn't they include optional roof fronts , that would cater for everybody 116,117,118 accepting that the trailer would be inaccurate but liveable with. After all I run a 107 ( second hand Modelrail ltd edition)that's really a 108.

[Geep7]

117's also saw some use on the Reading - Redhill - Tonbridge services apparently.

Having lived by the Reading - Guildford stretch of this line in the late 80's and into the Turbo era, 117's made quite a regular appearance..... Even had the 121's appear, in place of an OOS 117/101 DMBS. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing 101/117 scratch sets too towards the end.

[chrisf]

 

Thanks Chris. That being the case , couldn't they include optional roof fronts , that would cater for everybody 116,117,118 accepting that the trailer would be inaccurate but liveable with. After all I run a 107 ( second hand Modelrail ltd edition)that's really a 108.

I've no idea!  It would probably add to the cost.  My point was meant to be that the three types have enough in common for only one to be manufactured, it being possible to derive the other two for oneself.

 

Chris

[Martin_R]

No estimated release date - not even the year?

 

Paul

The general conversations on the Bachmann stand on the GWSR yesterday seemed to point to maybe a 2017 release and my guess on the cost would be £200+ by then.

[John M Upton]

Ouch....

[woodenhead]

Assuming then they want to get a return on the investments then would it be amiss to suggest the 116/118 might not appear before 2019?

[Redford73]

I hope we get a BR Blue version and if the planned releases sell well I'd like a 1970s White/Blue refurb version which Lima did when they released the 117.

 

I was waiting for Hornby to do the 101 in refurb but they just kept releasing the Strathclyd livery again and again and again ....

 

I wonder if Bachmann will do the 101 in refurb livery?   

 

Glad someone has finally undertaken this release!

[DavidB]

 

And so we don't have too much thread drift, from the 'prototype for everything files' a Hymek at Cookham rescuing a DMU.  Hard to tell if it's 117 or 121 from this view but one or the other.

 

https://flic.kr/p/d2aJS9

The unit has separate metal frames for the main bodyside windows, so that would confirm it as a 121 - the older 117s didn't have separate frames.

 

David

[dibber25]

I've no idea!  It would probably add to the cost.  My point was meant to be that the three types have enough in common for only one to be manufactured, it being possible to derive the other two for oneself.

 

Chris

Manufacturers generally like to do one complete model with as few separate parts as possible. In this case I'm pretty certain that it would be a straight 117 and that it MIGHT be followed up in due course by a 116 or 118. That way they cater to the collecting market (you need to buy all three) much better than with a model where you buy one and swap parts around and have to apply number transfers etc. 

CHRIS LEIGH

[wombatofludham]

In response to GordonC (I can't get the quote facility to work for some reason) in terms of similarities between the different suburban dmus, the motor cars of the 116, 117 and 118 were broadly similar except the 116 had a domed cab roof and the 117 and 118 had a roof box headcode indicator.  Obviously there were more detailed differences between the classes, but for example the bodyside window arrangements were similar.  Where the three classes differed was in the centre trailer arrangement, the 117 and 118 having a trailer composite with central lavatories, and the 116 having no lavatory accommodation, and either a full second class or a composite trailer.  In later years, the Tyseley units acquired trailer cars with lavatories displaced from Class 127, 115 and even class 101 units which coupled with gangways allowed their use on some long distance services for which their high density seating was probably not the most comfortable.

 

The Class 115 units had a shorter guards van area and more powerful 238hp engines and were operated as four car units until the 1980s when the Liverpool allocated units were reformed to three cars, and the Marylebone units began to be formed into all sorts of odd combinations with some acquiring Class 108 driving cars.  Some of the surplus Class 115 power cars were sent to Tyseley, mated with a Class 116 DMS and two intermediate trailers to form some 4 car units which struggled with some of the fierce gradients on the Cross City.  This left a surplus of Class 116 DMBS cars which were paired with an intermediate trailer to form three car double DMBS units, just like Lima's old Class 117 model.

 

Some of the 117 and 118 units ended up in Birmingham and if I recall correctly some of the Class 118 units were built originally as two car units for the steeper Cornish branches and there are pictures of two car units on places like Flickr in green and all over blue liveries.  Towards the end of dmu operations in Birmingham some of the 117s were refurbished into Regional Railways livery and ran as power twins without toilets on "Sprinter" diagrams before migrating to Scotland as three car units.  The NSE liveried units also ran as power-twins without centre trailers on the GOBLIN services towards the end of their lives.

 

I suppose the long and short of the "suburban" dmu saga and their formations is dive into Flickr and other photo websites and have a look, Flickr has a Class 100-131 First Generation DMU photo group which is very useful for such things.

 
Of course this is a general overview and open to correction or elaboration by others.

Edited September 6, 2015 by wombatofludham

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I'm pleased to hear about the class 121. If, as predicted, Dapol back off here it is a slight shame that there will be fewer choices of identity and no Class 122, but all I really need is either/or in BR green. Dapol have made some rather ambitious announcements and we've heard nothing since, at least now, we can be sure that a super detailed bubble car will hit the market!

 

I'm not too fussed about the 117. I'm sure that DJM would have done a fine job in producing them but moving them to Bachmann probably brings them closer to release and perhaps a slightly lower price, as pointed out, they are no longer exclusive to Kernow.

 

I'm not surprised that (as far as I noticed) no one guessed either of these classes in the 'froth' thread leading up to the announcement! I was relatively certain that the Manor was due a re-tool. I'm not complaining though - the 121 is probably one of the only diesels that is of more use to me than a Manor!

[woodenhead]

I think no one guessed them because they had already been announced albeit via a different manufacturer and as a commission only not a general release.

 

I would like to see more of this closer working between manufacturers and retailers with models being in the main range rather than purely a commission as that way there is more chance of us N gaugers getting something.

[frobisher]

I'm surprised the Class 117 was picked when it has been done before by Lima ... yes I know the standard will be far higher now, but I'm surprised the more numerous 116s weren't chosen to be done first.

As I understand it, the Lima 117 DMBS tooling was irreversibly changed to produce the 121 tooling, and they only ever produced two of the three vehicle types anyway. So whilst there are still plenty of the Lima 117's out there they need quite drastic surgery to be "correct", Hornby couldn't produce any sets anyway. So as such, it's a perfectly good goal for Bachmann/Kernow.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

I'm not sure where the 104s went after they came off Gospel Oak - Barking but I can't ever remember seeing them down the Thames Valley or indeed at Southall depot as I passed by on various occasions.  They might possibly have got on the Greenford car workings.

 

L701-4 were allocated to Old Oak Common.  Officially for Gospel Oak - Barking but they were allocated, apparently at random, to that depot's other duties at times.  They appeared on Slough stoppers and on the Greenford, Marlow and Henley branches at least.  I note Chris Leigh's comment about never having seen one at Windsor; I had thought they reached there at least once.

 

After their replacement (by class 115 on the Barking duties, displaced by class 165 on the Chiltern lines, and by class 165 directly in the Thames Valley) they were withdrawn for scrap.

[richierich]

Having read the thread as an aside I'd agree a Class 104 would be a very useful DMU to those who model the North Eastern, Eastern & LM Regions. I'll not hold my breathe to see one announced any time soon.

 

It's also curious this has been announced, yet the retooled class 158/159 seems to remain just an aspirational model…

 

The point I'm watching with interest will be the price of these high density DMUs. I suspect it will be pretty eye watering and wallet emptying. I guess £200+?

Edited September 7, 2015 by richierich

[cromptonnut]

I suspect it will be pretty eye watering and wallet emptying. I guess £200+?

 

If you look at the prices of items today, compared to prices 3 or 4 years ago, people would be saying the exact same thing.

 

When Bachmann announced the Blue Pullman and its associated price tag, people scoffed and said it'd never sell at that price.  It did.

 

Hattons have the 4-CEP on pre-order for the next batch at £170 - and that's a four car set.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Hattons have the 4-CEP on pre-order for the next batch at £170 - and that's a four car set.

 

Don't forget though that the CEP is not a new product and the tooling and costs might already have been written down so that £170 is a bare minimum cost.  For the 117s I'd be surprised to see change out of £250.  Hasn't stopped an order going in though.