Bachmann announce Class 117 and Class 121 at Collectors Club event

[dibber25]

I would have been more impressed if they were bringing out a Class 104 DMU.  Some 300 units of these were built as against about 100 Class 117.  The Class 104 also had a much wider geographical spread (I'm thinking about the North-West, especially about the Buxton line) and ought therefore to have larger number of prospective purchasers.  Please think on it Bachmann.

But the 104 is a short underframe vehicle and Bachmann already does several. They wanted, specifically, to do a long underframe unit with suburban seating/door layout. Plus the 117 provides an easy way to do the 121 and both classes carried numerous livery variations, though I'll concede that there was the Mexican Bean and that 104s got the later NSE when they arrived on the WR, however, I never saw a 104 running as a unit on the WR, they were always just replacement cars in 117s or formed as a pair with a 121. Also, it makes a change to have a WR unit rather than Met-Camms, Cravens and Derby units which are great for the rest of the UK.

In reply to 'centraltrains', The Chiltern 121 would require different tooling as it has doors modified with central locking, which adds a small section to the bottom of each door and at least one of the Chiltern cars has the exhaust system ducted through the vehicle body, not mounted on the cab end.

CHRIS LEIGH

Edited September 6, 2015 by dibber25

[Gwiwer]

 

 

I never saw a 104 running as a unit on the WR, they were always just replacement cars in 117s or formed as a pair with a 121.

 

They appeared as twins all too often for regular commuters' liking on three-car diagrams in the Thames Valley.  Often on the Slough all-stations.  They were supposed to be confined to the Gospel Oak - Barking route when Old Oak Common inherited that by default by becoming the last DMU depot in London.  They strayed daily and were replaced on the Barking duties by 2-car or 3-car 117s - if those duties were covered at all which wasn't always the case.  NSE-liveried class 104 twins have also appeared on all the Thames Valley branches so far as I'm aware.

[Tim H]

Why is every new product announcement greeting with moans of "They should have done [thing that ran in my region] instead"?

[dibber25]

They appeared as twins all too often for regular commuters' liking on three-car diagrams in the Thames Valley.  Often on the Slough all-stations.  They were supposed to be confined to the Gospel Oak - Barking route when Old Oak Common inherited that by default by becoming the last DMU depot in London.  They strayed daily and were replaced on the Barking duties by 2-car or 3-car 117s - if those duties were covered at all which wasn't always the case.  NSE-liveried class 104 twins have also appeared on all the Thames Valley branches so far as I'm aware.

Sorry, that's pretty late in the day for my period of interest though I certainly never saw one on the Windsor branch when I lived down there. My last 'first generation' ride on that line was a Met-Cam two-car. It's gearbox 'blew up' at Slough and I had to go home by bus! Nevertheless I still think it will be preferable to have the 117 and 121 as they cover a much wider period of interest on the WR and even cater for those of us who remember and model the 1960s.

CHRIS LEIGH

[shunny]

I am looking forward to getting a Regional Railways/Scotrail version in the future I remember travelling on the 117 on the Edinburgh to Fife Circle trains in the 90s even one busy Xmas shopping day the guard let us stand in the brake van as no room anywhere else on the train. Until they announce that livery I will happily order the NSE livery as they look very nice and maybe a 121 to go with it.  

[Tim H]

Sorry, that's pretty late in the day for my period of interest though I certainly never saw one on the Windsor branch when I lived down there. My last 'first generation' ride on that line was a Met-Cam two-car. It's gearbox 'blew up' at Slough and I had to go home by bus! Nevertheless I still think it will be preferable to have the 117 and 121 as they cover a much wider period of interest on the WR and even cater for those of us who remember and model the 1960s.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

I remember a 101/121 hybrid set (101 Motor Brake Composite, 121 Driving Trailer) in the last years before Turbofication.

 

How many people actually model the London end of the WR in 00?  Seems to me it's eitther the 4-track main line which needs a lot of space, or 'basic railway' branches which aren't that interesting to operate. Most WR-based layouts I see seem to be based on other parts of the region.

[woodenhead]

I remember a 101/121 hybrid set (101 Motor Brake Composite, 121 Driving Trailer) in the last years before Turbofication.

 

How many people actually model the London end of the WR in 00?  Seems to me it's eitther the 4-track main line which needs a lot of space, or 'basic railway' branches which aren't that interesting to operate. Most WR-based layouts I see seem to be based on other parts of the region.

Now Bachman have the keys to the 117 and Kernow felt they could achieve the 116 by using slides into the 117 tooling then it makes thoses WR models outside London more likely but probably not for a few more years yet unless DJM is being asked to do a similar chassis. But if you can use the 117 tooling as a base with slides why commission a completely seperate model and all it's costs

[The Stationmaster]

They appeared as twins all too often for regular commuters' liking on three-car diagrams in the Thames Valley.  Often on the Slough all-stations.  They were supposed to be confined to the Gospel Oak - Barking route when Old Oak Common inherited that by default by becoming the last DMU depot in London.  They strayed daily and were replaced on the Barking duties by 2-car or 3-car 117s - if those duties were covered at all which wasn't always the case.  NSE-liveried class 104 twins have also appeared on all the Thames Valley branches so far as I'm aware.

Regrettably the junk dumped on various Thames Valley branches were Class 103 Park Royal units - atrocious things.

I remember a 101/121 hybrid set (101 Motor Brake Composite, 121 Driving Trailer) in the last years before Turbofication.

 

How many people actually model the London end of the WR in 00?  Seems to me it's eitther the 4-track main line which needs a lot of space, or 'basic railway' branches which aren't that interesting to operate. Most WR-based layouts I see seem to be based on other parts of the region.

 

Our London Division branch boasted Class 122 followed by Class 121 SPCs, loco hauled trains worked by 'Halls' and 'Castles' followed by Hymeks and a local fright trip usually worked by a 2251, it also saw an occasional 'Grange' or 'Manor' and even a 28XX on one occasion  (and also reputedly a 'Brit' but that was in pre dmu days).   In the early '60s, and even after the initial rationlisation, all the principal branches open to passenger traffic were still fully signalled, in some cases with colour light signals, the only dmu worked branch terminus which lost its signals early on was Marlow.

 

The WR London Division seems generally a very under-rated area for early 1960s modelling with some interesting branches  (how about a 117 dmu crossing an excursion worked by a 'Jubilee' on a single line branch ora Class 121 running alongside a shunting car transporter train ?) and one which is at last seemingly going to be helped by the r-t-r provision of its core dmus for which CADs exist and which are therefore actually likely to sometime appear from a factory instead of being muttered about for years - I can foresee some increasing modelling interest in the area which might perhaps even be encouraged by magazine articles?

Now Bachman have the keys to the 117 and Kernow felt they could achieve the 116 by using slides into the 117 tooling then it makes thoses WR models outside London more likely but probably not for a few more years yet unless DJM is being asked to do a similar chassis. But if you can use the 117 tooling as a base with slides why commission a completely seperate model and all it's costs

It would seem to me fairly obvious that if a 116 is produced (I hope, original livery please) it would come from the same stable as the 117, as would a 118.  Don't overlook the basic fact that these were brought to our attention as Kernow commissions and judging by the comment at the foot of Kernow's announcement it looks unlikely that situation will change or that it might be what has happened with the 117 and 121 where it is now emerging almost as what seems to be a sort of Kernow/Bachmann co-production with Kernow's CADs to get the project underway.

Edited September 6, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Regrettably the junk dumped on various Thames Valley branches were Class 103 Park Royal units - atrocious things.

 

Units L701-4 of class 104 IIRC were also used.  I remember the Park Royals.  In both cases I'd prefer not to.

 

http://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-104/operations-later.phpconfirms use of the 104s on the "Thames Line" which I take to mean Paddington - Reading and branches.

[Tim H]

Regrettably the junk dumped on various Thames Valley branches were Class 103 Park Royal units - atrocious things.

I'd forgotten that. Back in the early 70s for a couple of years, if I remember correctly. The 104s were much later on.

 

Our London Division branch boasted Class 122 followed by Class 121 SPCs, loco hauled trains worked by 'Halls' and 'Castles' followed by Hymeks and a local fright trip usually worked by a 2251, it also saw an occasional 'Grange' or 'Manor' and even a 28XX on one occasion  (and also reputedly a 'Brit' but that was in pre dmu days).   In the early '60s, and even after the initial rationlisation, all the principal branches open to passenger traffic were still fully signalled, in some cases with colour light signals, the only dmu worked branch terminus which lost its signals early on was Marlow.

 

The WR London Division seems generally a very under-rated area for early 1960s modelling with some interesting branches  (how about a 117 dmu crossing an excursion worked by a 'Jubilee' on a single line branch ora Class 121 running alongside a shunting car transporter train ?) and one which is at last seemingly going to be helped by the r-t-r provision of its core dmus for which CADs exist and which are therefore actually likely to sometime appear from a factory instead of being muttered about for years - I can foresee some increasing modelling interest in the area which might perhaps even be encouraged by magazine articles?

It would seem to me fairly obvious that if a 116 is produced (I hope, original livery please) it would come from the same stable as the 117, as would a 118.  Don't overlook the basic fact that these were brought to our attention as Kernow commissions and judging by the comment at the foot of Kernow's announcement it looks unlikely that situation will change or that it might be what has happened with the 117 and 121 where it is now emerging almost as what seems to be a sort of Kernow/Bachmann co-production with Kernow's CADs to get the project underway.

Fair point. I was thinking of the post-steam era when most of the surviving branches were heavily rationalised and lost their freight traffic. Did the Bourne End line carry any through freight before the section to High Wycombe closed?

[Budgie]

When the Cardiff Valleys were dieselised, they had 116s. I could use several of them, but I'll get a couple of 117s anyway because they'll give the impression of the 116s even though they are not the same.

[HillsideDepot]

I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up about the 116 & 118, sure I'd prefer them to the 117, but in model production terms the differences are probably akin to those found across the numerous types of class 37. And those have all been covered over time, so I'm sure the 117's siblings will get similar treatment too.

 

I could say "nothing for me", but we were never quite sure what Kernow/DJM were going to produce, and nor were they until the pre-orders were totted up. Now I know that a plain blue suburban DMU is (I guess as its not in the first batch) at least a few years away, which is more than I knew on Friday. And if Mr Bachmann chooses to announce a blue 117, or indeed a blue 116 or 118 next spring, happy days.

 

And if anyone is still not satisfied, make me an offer on my box of assorted Lima "117s", most are already dismantled ready for you to convert/detail!

[Rugd1022]

I'd forgotten that. Back in the early 70s for a couple of years, if I remember correctly. The 104s were much later on.

 

Fair point. I was thinking of the post-steam era when most of the surviving branches were heavily rationalised and lost their freight traffic. Did the Bourne End line carry any through freight before the section to High Wycombe closed?

 

Tim, there's a photo of a 22 on a pick up freight at Bourne End in one of Chris Leigh's fine books on the WR, when the line was still open through to High Wycombe all sorts of traffic would have treveresed the line, including the odd diversion when the route via Reading, Didcot and Oxford was blocked.

[Southernman46]

These things along with the 116's as 10 car rakes (an extra Trailer included) regularly reached Ramsgate in the 70's on Sunday excursion traffic

[The Stationmaster]

I'd forgotten that. Back in the early 70s for a couple of years, if I remember correctly. The 104s were much later on.

 

Fair point. I was thinking of the post-steam era when most of the surviving branches were heavily rationalised and lost their freight traffic. Did the Bourne End line carry any through freight before the section to High Wycombe closed?

The Wycombe branch retained freight for just about as long as it was open - it was also where you could have seen a 121 or 117 crossing a 'Jubilee'.  The really heavy rationalisation on the surviving passenger branches all came some years after the end of steam - getting on for 10 years later in some cases.

 

I'm not sure where the 104s went after they came off Gospel Oak - Barking but I can't ever remember seeing them down the Thames Valley or indeed at Southall depot as I passed by on various occasions.  They might possibly have got on the Greenford car workings.

[Legend]

Why is every new product announcement greeting with moans of "They should have done [thing that ran in my region] instead"?

Yes I suppose you're correct Tim.

 

The only points I would make are that a 116 ran on WR, LMR and ScR so was much more widespread , and therefore I think more useful to modellers than a 117 that was primarily a WR London division dmu. From my point of view it would have been preferable to have a 116 first and then a 117. After all the model is probably optimistically 2 years away, and therefore any derivatives 4 years away!

 

I think there is a muted reaction to this announcement (it's got to 2 pages in 2 days)because it's really an announcement of something we thought we were already in line for through Kernow anyway, and in fact may put the 116 and 118 further away.

 

We haven't seen the price so it may well be an irrelevance anyway

 

It would also be interesting to see the number of intended buyers that are DCC versus Analogue as the provision of through electrical couplings to enable one decoder to be fitted must increase the cost. I can also live without lights and would settle for a similar scheme as the 108 for head and tail lights , if it meant it was less expensive.

[Metr0Land]

The Wycombe branch retained freight for just about as long as it was open - it was also where you could have seen a 121 or 117 crossing a 'Jubilee'.  The really heavy rationalisation on the surviving passenger branches all came some years after the end of steam - getting on for 10 years later in some cases.

 

I'm not sure where the 104s went after they came off Gospel Oak - Barking but I can't ever remember seeing them down the Thames Valley or indeed at Southall depot as I passed by on various occasions.  They might possibly have got on the Greenford car workings.

 

Pic of 104/121 pairing here.  I'm pretty sure there was a 117/104 pair in NSE but only have it on video and can't find a pic on t'web as yet.

 

https://flic.kr/p/nfhpSw

 

 

Edit:  Although the caption calls it a class 121 attached to the 104, it's actually a class 121 DTS? which externally looks much the same as a 117 to me.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Metr0Land

[Metr0Land]

The Wycombe branch retained freight for just about as long as it was open - it was also where you could have seen a 121 or 117 crossing a 'Jubilee'.  The really heavy rationalisation on the surviving passenger branches all came some years after the end of steam - getting on for 10 years later in some cases.

 

31 at Wycombe on a parcels in the edge of this pic.

 

47.034 High Wycombe 7th Dec 74. by 54A South dock, on Flickr

[Les1952]

I would have been more impressed if Bachmann had announced a four-car version of either the 101 or 108, i.e a TGS and a powered DMCL.  The sets were DMCL-TS-TGS-DMCL.  Four-car sets were the most common variety in the "real" North East, running the Tyneside Loop after de-electrification, and originally on Newcastle-Carlisle (with buffets) and Newcastle-Middlesbrough and Darlington-Saltburn as 8-car sets.

 

Aside from that, who running blue period could resist a DMU called "Nanny the Mazer" or "Cushie Butterfield"?

 

Les.

[Metr0Land]

I would have been more impressed if Bachmann had announced a four-car version of either the 101 or 108

 

Les.

 

Who's to say they won't do it in time?  It wouldn't make much sense to have a jamboree at GWR to announce a model of something that's not there?  (OK I know there are no 4-car 101/108 anywhere but there are lines with 2 car versions of these units).

[dibber25]

These things along with the 116's as 10 car rakes (an extra Trailer included) regularly reached Ramsgate in the 70's on Sunday excursion traffic

It's a mistake to think of 117s as purely London commuter units as they got around much of the WR. True, if you model Ashburton, you won't want one, but a quick tweak to the headcode box and you'll have an acceptable 118, which covers you for much of the west country, too, while a slightly different tweak' will give you a passable 116. Remember, we did similar things with Lima units for about a quarter century! 121s reached the far west as they replaced 122s - Gordon Pettit even had a plan to take the guard's end partition out of the 121s so that passengers had a view out of both ends for the Looe and St. Ives branches. It never came to anything. I recall going from Slough to Weymouth Quay on a 117, on a Merrymaker (remember those?). In answer to Tim H and Stationmaster, I have pictures that I took at Loudwater, from a Class 121 (in greenSYP) of a 'Hall' running tender-first bound for the Maidenhead direction with a train of coal in 16ton minerals. 

And in answer to Metroland, I have several shots taken at Slough with 104s and 101s in all sorts of combinations with 117s and 121s etc. In NSE days, as the WR became a dumping ground for DMUs, the fleet was - frankly - a mess. Can't imagine many folk wanting to model it any more than they would want to model steam filthy and with names and numbers missing. 

Of course, from the modelling point of view, manufacturers will only think in terms of matched units. They won't be likely to consider whether or not disparate cars from different units can be coupled together. They will also look for new geographical areas to cover in case there's a rich seam of modellers whose particular wishes haven't yet been catered for. Seems to me that with Derby Lightweights, 108s, 101s and 105s, Bachmann has done a pretty good job of catering for those whose requirements are outside the London area of the WR.

CHRIS LEIGH

[chrisf]

That there is to be a decent WR dmu has to be good news.  Given that we are supposed to be modellers, the class chosen is relatively unimportant.  As far as the power cars are concerned the 116 is a 117 without the headcode box and a 118 is a 117 with a slightly different headcode box.  Granted, the 116 trailer is different from those of the other classes but I can think of at least one instance where a 118 trailer was formed between a pair of 116 power cars.

 

As regards the assertion in the announcement that 117s worked in Cornwall, the earliest instance of this that I can find is the beginning of 1968 when three sets were sent to Laira in exchange for three 116s transferred to Reading.  The allocation history of WR dmus is poorly recorded until the mid 1960s and such records as exist are due almost entirely to the vigilant members of the RCTS. 

 

Whilst I'm at it I ought to enlarge on my post of yesterday.  Deliveries to the London Division, divided about equally between Southall and Reading depots, comprised 42 pairs of 117 power cars and 39 117 trailers.  Laira received 15 118 sets of which 9 were operated as three car sets and six as power twins.  This left six spare trailers.  Three of these were sent to London and formed with the spare 117 power cars to make three hybrid 3-car sets outwardly similar to the pukka 117s.  Two 118 power twins went at first to Bristol where they were used on the Clevedon and Portishead branches until replaced by new 121 single cars.  Whether or not they spent any time at Laira is debatable but by the end of 1961 they were both at Reading where they were reunited with their proper trailers.  This leaves one 118 trailer, which was formed with a 116 pair, as mentioned above, displaced from Bristol by service cuts.

 

It gets better.  In mid 1962 seven of the 9 118 three car sets at Laira were sent to Bristol - quite why, when there were service cuts, is a good question.  They were replaced by 7 second class only 3 car 116 sets displaced from Newport by the closure of the Eastern and Western Valleys passenger services.  Two years later the displaced 118s returned to Laira.  All this movement may have been part of a cunning plan but I can't help suspecting chronic indecision as well. 

 

Chris

 

Edit - Chris Leigh posted while I was typing this.  Great minds or what?

Edited September 6, 2015 by chrisf

[37114]

I am definitely up for one of the 121's, fingers crossed that an all Blue one will be announced next year. I am hoping that the fact the ground work was underway by Kernow/DJM this will accelerate their arrival.

[DJM Dave]

It's a mistake to think of 117s as purely London commuter units as they got around much of the WR. True, if you model Ashburton, you won't want one, but a quick tweak to the headcode box and you'll have an acceptable 118, which covers you for much of the west country, too, while a slightly different tweak' will give you a passable 116. Remember, we did similar things with Lima units for about a quarter century! 121s reached the far west as they replaced 122s - Gordon Pettit even had a plan to take the guard's end partition out of the 121s so that passengers had a view out of both ends for the Looe and St. Ives branches. It never came to anything. I recall going from Slough to Weymouth Quay on a 117, on a Merrymaker (remember those?). In answer to Tim H and Stationmaster, I have pictures that I took at Loudwater, from a Class 121 (in greenSYP) of a 'Hall' running tender-first bound for the Maidenhead direction with a train of coal in 16ton minerals. 

And in answer to Metroland, I have several shots taken at Slough with 104s and 101s in all sorts of combinations with 117s and 121s etc. In NSE days, as the WR became a dumping ground for DMUs, the fleet was - frankly - a mess. Can't imagine many folk wanting to model it any more than they would want to model steam filthy and with names and numbers missing. 

Of course, from the modelling point of view, manufacturers will only think in terms of matched units. They won't be likely to consider whether or not disparate cars from different units can be coupled together. They will also look for new geographical areas to cover in case there's a rich seam of modellers whose particular wishes haven't yet been catered for. Seems to me that with Derby Lightweights, 108s, 101s and 105s, Bachmann has done a pretty good job of catering for those whose requirements are outside the London area of the WR.

CHRIS LEIGH

Hey Chris,

 

i went on one of those Merrymakers to Weymouth from Slough on a 117 (i think it was 2 sets). Great ride for a kid :-)

[The Stationmaster]

 

31 at Wycombe on a parcels in the edge of this pic.

 

47.034 High Wycombe 7th Dec 74. by 54A South dock, on Flickr

Yes - but the Wycombe Branch (i.e. the branch between Maidenhead and High Wycombe) was closed beyond Bourne End in 1970.