Dapol 08

[Greenmodelmonkey]

For those that haven't discovered it yet and are running DC only there is a cab light On/Off slider switch on top of the PCB board under the hood. I called Dapol about switch as its not mentioned in the instructions (?). They said they did not know what it was for (?) and pointed me in direction of DCC Supplies (DCCS were were a bit suprised about this but confirmed it was for switching cab light in DC mode).

[No Decorum]

For those that haven't discovered it yet and are running DC only there is a cab light On/Off slider switch on top of the PCB board under the hood. I called Dapol about switch as its not mentioned in the instructions (?). They said they did not know what it was for (?) and pointed me in direction of DCC Supplies (DCCS were were a bit suprised about this but confirmed it was for switching cab light in DC mode).

It seems to be the case that the combined knowledge of this forum exceeds that of Dapol. Fortunately, the model turned out all right!

[Taigatrommel]

In spite of much searching, I'm at a loss as to what Paul describes as MTC Compatible or non compatible actually means, unless it's a reference to logic level outputs on decoders.  Either way,  I've been curious enough to look at non-sound 21 pin decoders to see which have enough functions with enough oomph for lights.

 

Already mentioned has been a TCS decoder.

 

Lenz Silver 21 - five functions, 1 amp motor drive   Scrap that, wrong info on the shop I was browsing.  The manual says four functions.

Kuehn T65-21 - six functions, 1.1 amp motor drive

Uhlenbrock 75330 - six functions, 1 amp motor drive

Zimo MX634D - six functions, 1.2 amp motor drive

 

I've only tried one Kuehn decoder so far, and I'm entirely happy with it, and of course Lenz and Zimo can be recommended without hesitation.  I'd go for the Zimo, but if cost was a factor the Kuehn is cheaper.  So is the Uhlenbrock, but I have no experience of their decoders to know whether to recommend it or not.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Taigatrommel

[pauliebanger]

For those that haven't discovered it yet and are running DC only there is a cab light On/Off slider switch on top of the PCB board under the hood. I called Dapol about switch as its not mentioned in the instructions (?). They said they did not know what it was for (?) and pointed me in direction of DCC Supplies (DCCS were were a bit suprised about this but confirmed it was for switching cab light in DC mode).

 

The instruction which come with the model do say that there is a cab light switch for DC use.

 

I also pointed it out in one of my early posts after the model was released. This seems more like 'operator error' than a mistake by Dapol. I know we all think that instructions are there only to be read when all else fails, but at least do have a read......   LOL

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Guest Q663368]

Well the black Class 08 has arrived and it's everything I could want it to be - Its black and really looks the part - goodness knows if the number it came with, 13240 ever ran on western rails - I am sure someone knows? For that is the fictitious setting of my O gauge layout... It is being run on D.C. and the lights work forward and in reverse... And is very smooth in running. It can slow down to a crawl - which considering the way I lay track is a small miracle... I was getting fed up with the shoddily assembled models that kept arriving. And together with the various nameless manufacturers' ability to be stone deaf to complaints from abroad, which I found to be rather disheartening - But then Model Rails' USA tank arrives followed by this charmer and my confidence in the model manufacturers is restored... So I am back to thinking to get some more rolling stock from Dapol to go with it.. Whilst reminding myself to be careful and not to splurge - in O gauge a little goes a long way...

 

Class8ShunterDapolAC.jpg[/url

 

Here it is coupled to a Lionheart Air Ministry Tank

Nice pic. I think you will find 13240 was allocated to York shed 50A in 1956 when delivered. Mine arrived in Southern Ontario yesterday. I took it apart last night ready to install a Zimo MX644D sound decoder and speaker. You do not need to remove the loco body from the chassis in order to fit the decoder. However I wanted to access the cab to install a driver. The instructions state the body will lift straight off following the removal of the two small screws. I found this not to be perfectly correct. Below the front buffer beam, there is a horizontal connecting strip connecting the front steps. This impedes removal. It appears to be a clip fit onto the front edge facing of each step, so can be pulled off horizontally with care from the locating pips. The internal wiring is short and as stated needs to be unplugged in order to free the body. This is rather awkward and needs care. Lovely model for the money. According to photographs, 13240 did not have grab handles on the hinged side panel access doors when new but I will not be removing them.

[pauliebanger]

I've used a number of these TCS EU621 decoders mainly in Bachmann 21 pin Class 20's, all 6 functions worked as intended, I assume this means they are MTC compatible ?  They appear to be to NEM660 spec, and surprisingly not to NMRA MTC spec, being produced in "Trump" land  lol

 

More here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116484-tcs-eu621/

 

HTH

Ken

 

Ken,

 

Not quite. What you say here and in the linked posting confirms that the TCS decoder is NOT MTC compatible. If you connected to  AUX 3 or 4 and it worked without needing a separate amplifying circuit to be added, then they will be Open Collector types. MTC requires AUX 3 and above to be Logic Level only.

 

It seems this decoder will work the lights as intended on the Dapol 08.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

You all appear to have opened the top very easily, could someone explain more clearly how this is done, so I can get to the light switch. As said 13240 was new to York 50A in Feb 1956, perfect for our club layout, and why it is immaculate. It is a pity this photographers detail photos have been lost - a warning to us all - they would have been very useful 

 

 

The brass bearings show up in this type of view!

 

By the way, what evidence is there that the light ducting on the cab back was painted white? The Rail online photos show them dark, apparently black - but there aren't many pictures from the cab end.

 

Paul

 

PS, meant to add that the screw couplings are really nice. The first RTR O gauge loco I've got with a suitably flexible screw coupling, that does not appear to be over scale and with a hook that goes well with the links from Lionheart, Parkside and Slaters.

 

PPS The only other allocation given for this loco on BRDATABASE is Holbeck Leeds 55A 04/11/72 although it is given as condemned from Barrow Hill Staveley 04/08/1985. By then of course it will have had various modifications as well as renumbering a couple of times.

Edited November 18, 2016 by hmrspaul

[pauliebanger]

In spite of much searching, I'm at a loss as to what Paul describes as MTC Compatible or non compatible actually means, unless it's a reference to logic level outputs on decoders. 

 

'Logic level' is not a trivial issue and is at the heart of this, but there are other physical factors too.

 

The MOROP NEM660 specification for MTC is that all function outputs from AUX3 and above are Logic Level only. (plus other important factors which determine if the decoder will actually fit properly, which is also problematic on the Dapol as there are components 'under' the decoder position).

 

The NMRA standard (or maybe it was a recommendation, I can't get onto the NMRA site at the moment to check) for 21pin decoders, allowed for 'Open Collector' or 'Normal' function outputs instead.

 

This is the cause of well know controversy and incompatibility issues. Most UK models do not use any FO above Aux 2 as supplied, so many have gone along blissfully unaware of the problem. Those who needed to use AUX 3 or above on MTC decoders, for additional lighting say, had to provide am amplifying circuit, or more latterly use an adapter board.

 

An alternative is to switch to decoders already equipped with multiple 'open collector' function outputs.  ZIMO and TCS and possibly others produce 21 pin decoders in either category.

 

For ZIMO, the suffix D (eg MX644D) denotes that this is an NMRA compliant decoder (8 'open collector' FOs). These are the ones most widely available in the UK, since they suit our manufacturer's models better. The C suffix (MX644C) denotes NEM660 compatibility. These are marketed for use with Maerklin and Trix models whose PCB require Logic Level only at AUX 3 and 4.

 

So, realistically, this could just as easily be seen as a failure of some decoder manufacturers to produce decoders of both NEM and NMRA types.

 

The 'mistake' that Dapol have made is to use the 21MTC logo when it is not truly compatible. But they are not alone. The term and the logo has been used far too loosely, rather like many people call any make of vacuum cleaner a 'Hoover'.

 

It's not my place to fix this problem. I raised the issue so that people could make an informed choice and not be caught out.

 

I offered a proven solution that involves using ZIMO decoders, not because they are the only type which are suitable, but because they are the brand I use exclusively and so I can speak from experience.

 

There has been a distinct lack of any comment, help or guidance from others who should know their products better.

 

Trying to blurr the issue (and their incomprehension of what has happened) with ridiculous conspiracy theories is about the best we've heard from them so far. At least it gave me something to laugh about. LOL

 

None of these problems are of my making, I’m just trying to help by reporting the facts.

 

There will be a solution for 'less that 5 function output decoders' and sound decoders which do not fit properly or work the lights correctly, but it will involve some degree of rewiring to make it happen.

 

Perhaps the easy solution is to choose the decoder wisely in the first place.

 

Kind regards

 

Paul

[Guest Isambarduk]

"... goodness knows if the number it came with, 13240 ever ran on western rails ."

 

Probably not, Bill.  A good friend of mine, who is a passionate 08 fan, probably has more 7mm 08s than BR had full size ones (OK, I might be exaggerating there) but really cannot stand anything Great Western (his problem) wrote to me about 13240:

 

At least it is not a WR allocated one.

 

Here is the history.

Number Renumbered        Original number                 TOPS renumber date          Built at                   Build Date             Allocated first to..

D3240    Jan-58                            13240                         Mar-74 became 08172       BR Darlington                Feb-56                   50A (YORK)

 

1957         Date                       Final       Status     Disposal detail/present owner         Date                       Notes

number   withdrawn            depot     code                                                                        cut up

D3240        Aug-85                   BH        Cut up         BREL Doncaster                                 Nov-85

 

_____________________

 

"meant to add that the screw couplings are really nice"

 

Well, in a way, I was slightly disappointed with them, Paul.  In due course, I shall be replacing them because I do not like the D-shackles that are pressed out of flat section, rather than the round section with a forged end; this is usually represented by a casting in model form, although I also make my own from wire, rolling up the eyes at the ends, filling in with silver solder and drilling out to form the eyes.

 

David

Edited November 18, 2016 by Isambarduk

[Guest Q663368]

You all appear to have opened the top very easily, could someone explain more clearly how this is done, so I can get to the light switch. As said 13240 was new to York 50A in Feb 1956, perfect for our club layout, and why it is immaculate. It is a pity this photographers detail photos have been lost - a warning to us all - they would have been very useful 

 

13240 photographer © Paul Bartlett 2r.jpg

 

The brass bearings show up in this type of view!

 

By the way, what evidence is there that the light ducting on the cab back was painted white? The Rail online photos show them dark, apparently black - but there aren't many pictures from the cab end.

 

Paul

 

PS, meant to add that the screw couplings are really nice. The first RTR O gauge loco I've got with a suitably flexible screw coupling, that does not appear to be over scale and with a hook that goes well with the links from Lionheart, Parkside and Slaters.

I did not like the conduits, toy like IMHO. Mine are now black using a Sharpie Permanent Marker. Best to put a piece of thin card or paper behind the conduit ot protect the body finish. Black on black, easy to make a permanent mistake.

[d600]

Hi can someone advise me please just got my 08 trying it on dc there only seems to be one white light working at each end in the direction of travel and no lights on at the rear is this correct or do the others work on dcc only.

 

Cheers

[tractor_37260]

'Logic level' is not a trivial issue and is at the heart of this, but there are other physical factors too.

 

The MOROP NEM660 specification for MTC is that all function outputs from AUX3 and above are Logic Level only. (plus other important factors which determine if the decoder will actually fit properly, which is also problematic on the Dapol as there are components 'under' the decoder position).

 

The NMRA standard (or maybe it was a recommendation, I can't get onto the NMRA site at the moment to check) for 21pin decoders, allowed for 'Open Collector' or 'Normal' function outputs instead.

 

This is the cause of well know controversy and incompatibility issues. Most UK models do not use any FO above Aux 2 as supplied, so many have gone along blissfully unaware of the problem. Those who needed to use AUX 3 or above on MTC decoders, for additional lighting say, had to provide am amplifying circuit, or more latterly use an adapter board.

 

An alternative is to switch to decoders already equipped with multiple 'open collector' function outputs.  ZIMO and TCS and possibly others produce 21 pin decoders in either category.

 

For ZIMO, the suffix D (eg MX644D) denotes that this is an NMRA compliant decoder (8 'open collector' FOs). These are the ones most widely available in the UK, since they suit our manufacturer's models better. The C suffix (MX644C) denotes NEM660 compatibility. These are marketed for use with Maerklin and Trix models whose PCB require Logic Level only at AUX 3 and 4.

 

So, realistically, this could just as easily be seen as a failure of some decoder manufacturers to produce decoders of both NEM and NMRA types.

 

The 'mistake' that Dapol have made is to use the 21MTC logo when it is not truly compatible. But they are not alone. The term and the logo has been used far too loosely, rather like many people call any make of vacuum cleaner a 'Hoover'.

 

It's not my place to fix this problem. I raised the issue so that people could make an informed choice and not be caught out.

 

I offered a proven solution that involves using ZIMO decoders, not because they are the only type which are suitable, but because they are the brand I use exclusively and so I can speak from experience.

 

There has been a distinct lack of any comment, help or guidance from others who should know their products better.

 

Trying to blurr the issue (and their incomprehension of what has happened) with ridiculous conspiracy theories is about the best we've heard from them so far. At least it gave me something to laugh about. LOL

 

None of these problems are of my making, I’m just trying to help by reporting the facts.

 

There will be a solution for 'less that 5 function output decoders' and sound decoders which do not fit properly or work the lights correctly, but it will involve some degree of rewiring to make it happen.

 

Perhaps the easy solution is to choose the decoder wisely in the first place.

 

Kind regards

 

Paul

 

 

A good description of the 21pin MTC variations here, which may or may not help .................? 

 

http://www.sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/21mtcconnector.html

[hmrspaul]

 

 

 

_____________________

 

"meant to add that the screw couplings are really nice"

 

Well, in a way, I was slightly disappointed with them, Paul.  In due course, I shall be replacing them because I do not like the D-shackles that are pressed out of flat section, rather than the round section with a forged end; this is usually represented by a casting in model form, although I also make my own from wire, rolling up the eyes at the ends, filling in with silver solder and drilling out to form the eyes.

 

David

I see the work of some of the finest 7mm kit and scratchbuilders of steam locos and the screw couplings they purchase look far too heavy. But the important point I was making was these work as they are loose enough, whereas the few others I have on RTR locos do not move sufficiently - quite useful as they automatically uncouple when they stop

 

Now how to get the lid off to switch the lights over.

 

Paul

Edited November 18, 2016 by hmrspaul

[vaughan45]

I see the work of some of the finest 7mm kit and scratchbuilders of steam locos and the screw couplings they purchase look far too heavy. But the importan point I was making was these work as they are loose enough, whereas the few others I have on RTR locos do not move sufficiently - quite useful as they automatically uncouple when they stop

 

Now how to get the lid off to switch the lights over.

 

Paul

 

Not sure this will help, but the first thing to mention is that the lid as three clips down either side, not two near the ends as shown on the Dapol instruction sheet. Therefore squeezing the lid near the ends as indicated on the sheet failed to work for me and risked damaging the handrails. 

 

My cack-handed method of gaining access was to undo the two body retaining screws under the chassis, carefully unclipping the ends of pipework from the chassis sides (doing this is not mentioned on the instruction sheet) and lifted the body up a little. In the available gap I pushed a rigid plastic rod upwards and this moved the lid up sufficiently to disengage the clips and I could then carefully remove it. Also worth mentioning is that if you are going to remove the body fully, you will need to watch out for the vacuum pipe on the front which could potentially become damaged due to the way in which it is secured. On my example the wiring to the cab light doesn't appear long enough to allow the body to be removed fully, without it being unplugged from the main circuit board.

 

Vaughan

Edited November 18, 2016 by vaughan45

[Pannier Tank]

PPS The only other allocation given for this loco on BRDATABASE is Holbeck Leeds 55A 04/11/72 although it is given as condemned from Barrow Hill Staveley 04/08/1985. By then of course it will have had various modifications as well as renumbering a couple of times.

 

Went from HO to HM 03/1977, BH 03/1985 then Wdn 08/1985

[Elvinley]

Hi can someone advise me please just got my 08 trying it on dc there only seems to be one white light working at each end in the direction of travel and no lights on at the rear is this correct or do the others work on dcc only.

 

Cheers

This is not correct and should be returned. Mine was the same but the replacement works both ways in direction of travel.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Elvinley

[Meld9003]

I did not like the conduits, toy like IMHO. Mine are now black using a Sharpie Permanent Marker. Best to put a piece of thin card or paper behind the conduit ot protect the body finish. Black on black, easy to make a permanent mistake.

Colour-rail have a photo of 13240 at York in 1956 where the conduit is white or very light grey. It does have the more normal layout though, rather than the one Dapol have chosen. On a more personal note and thinking ahead, does anyone know when D3245 got wasp stripes? Or better still know of a photo of it in 1964?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Meld9003

[Greenmodelmonkey]

Not sure this will help, but the first thing to mention is that the lid as three clips down either side, not two near the ends as shown on the Dapol instruction sheet. Therefore squeezing the lid near the ends as indicated on the sheet failed to work for me and risked damaging the handrails. 

 

My cack-handed method of gaining access was to undo the two body retaining screws under the chassis, carefully unclipping the ends of pipework from the chassis sides (doing this is not mentioned on the instruction sheet) and lifted the body up a little. In the available gap I pushed a rigid plastic rod upwards and this moved the lid up sufficiently to disengage the clips and I could then carefully remove it. Also worth mentioning is that if you are going to remove the body fully, you will need to watch out for the vacuum pipe on the front which could potentially become damaged due to the way in which it is secured. On my example the wiring to the cab light doesn't appear long enough to allow the body to be removed fully, without it being unplugged from the main circuit board.

 

Vaughan

I squeezed hood at cab end as there are no handrails in way. Pulled hood upwards at a bit of an angle then other clips at middle and front of hood unclipped themslves. Not easy and should get better after a few attempts. Warning I accidentally gripped the side of ladder when trying to remove hood and rungs popped out.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

following advice earlier in the thread I ordered a zimo mx634d for mine and the package thats come (thanks to digitrains) includes a surprisingly big capacitor, so it must be a stay alive decoder, so probably the 644 is too, it may not need them but I'll probably install it anyway

Thanks, I was just wondering if as the locos run well, a capacitor/stay alive was worth the extra cost and effort.....

 

The trouble is, I’m interested in the historical aspect. The range of stuff in 00 is much, much wider and also cheaper, even if Dapol has closed the gap somewhat. Not to mention the difficulty of finding enough room to run a train of a dozen wagons. (The other half-dozen Dapol HIAs are on their way.)

Interesting comments, the new OO A4 is £400 worth of 'cheap'??

 

Just to change tack for a bit, here is photo that was taken by a friend of mine yesterday; it compares a recently acquired Dapol 08 with one from Tower Brass that he seriously reworked some time ago.

 

 

It compares very well indeed ... and ran perfectly straight out of the box.  Gold star to Dapol.

 

David

Hi David,

 

They both look very nice!

 

They do indeed compare very well, the Bachmann Brass version has slightly better defined with roof rain-strips (gutters) and the box lids (although looking at a photo of 13149 the box lids, ala, the Dapol do look to have lids that are flush and not with an overhang) - something for the modeller to remedy and add that little bit of extra finesse. On 08202 the box tops look to overhang ala the Bachmann loco. The coupling rods on the Dapol are much finer though. Excellent value for money now that most of the 'issues' were remedied before release of the model, even the packaging is much better than the Terriers, with comprehensive instructions and notes and the lift off bonnet top is very 'Trump-land' and most welcome.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[Jon Fitness]

Jon,

 

Have a look at this page:

 

http://www.zimo.at/web2010/products/lokdecoder_EN.htm

 

You will see which decoders have 6 or more 'normal' functions.

 

The one you mention will work fine and it's a high power 1.6A version. Shop around, it is priced at £37 on Digitrains website, same on YouChoos. I can't see it on Coastal DCC's site but they are usually around the same price.

 

There are probably other brands which will work too. You need to select a 21 pin decoder one with 5 or more function outputs and which is non-MTC compatible.

 

Here's a link to a TCS decoder which appears to have 21 pins, no mention of MTC (but it does say 'Europen compatible') and with 6 outputs of 100mA each. This would probably be OK.

 

https://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Literature/Decoders/HO_Scale/EU-Series/EU621/EU621_Black_And_white.pdf

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

I've used a number of these TCS EU621 decoders mainly in Bachmann 21 pin Class 20's, all 6 functions worked as intended, I assume this means they are MTC compatible ?  They appear to be to NEM660 spec, and surprisingly not to NMRA MTC spec, being produced in "Trump" land  lol

 

More here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116484-tcs-eu621/

 

HTH

Ken

Thank you both, I will be investigating these in due course!

Cheers

Jon F.

[d600]

This is not correct and should be returned. Mine was the same but the replacement works both ways in direction of travel.

Hi Thanxs for the advice will get on the phone tomorrow and see what they say.

 

Cheers

[No Decorum]

Interesting comments, the new OO A4 is £400 worth of 'cheap'??

No, not cheap, but it is an extreme example. It is also possible to pay more than that for a 00 model. However, to compare like with like, a 00 08 is a good deal cheaper than the Dapol 0 scale 08.

 

It’s all relative. A Hornby A4 is also a good deal cheaper than a Heljan/Hatton’s one. Heljan’s 05s in both scales are more expensive than Bachmann/Hornby/Dapol 08s in the corresponding scales.

[Elvinley]

Hi Thanxs for the advice will get on the phone tomorrow and see what they say.

 

Cheers

No problem. Dapol are good at sorting out any issues. An email to Joel is the best way. My replacement has both lights working and runs much better than the original so was worth sending back.

[SR Chris]

Well, one very happy 4mm scale modeller here.

 

 

 

Now I'll have to finish that 7mm scale 20T brake van I started seven years ago!

 

Chris.

[mervyn]

just chipped my 08 with lenz silver chip lights one end cab lights okay only top light other end so going back monday!!!! still superb loco for money tho!!!!