Transgender and Gender Non-conforming People

[PhilH]

and in my view it is far more about simply remembering that society is a wider thing than our individual version of it and that there are other individuals within it.

 

Amen to that.

[brianthesnail96]

As far as religious teachings go, I've always thought Bill and Ted hit the nail squarely on the head with "Be Excellent To Each Other"... certainly I do my best to live my life by that mantra. 

Anyone who doesn't follow this theory is liable to upset me- regardless of sex/ race/ religion/ musical tastes.

 

Needless to say, those who have made statements in this thread as to how they wish to live their lives outside of the society approved "norm" only have my admiration. Good luck to each and every one of you and enjoy your journey through life the way you choose.

 

On a slightly unrelated note, probably the "minority" group of people I've encountered who are best at following Bill and Ted's advice are the goth/ rock community. It's a shame the same doesn't sound to be true of the LGBGT community.

[Dagworth]

Just parking this here as a thought.

 

Every time you see the words "politically correct" in a sentence try replacing them with "treating people with respect".

 

Andi

Edited September 26, 2015 by Dagworth

[raymw]

Laws are not much use, 'education' is needed. The yob/drunk or druggy attacking, is not concerned about the law, except that the risk of being caught may add to the excitement that they are getting at the time.

 

My background is in what was called 'systems analysis', no idea what that is called today, and drawing analogies can be tricky, but it often helps to look at how other problems are solved (hence how I find the whole area of model railways reflect the problems/solutions  in society at large). So, going in another direction if you consider the laws about car tax, they change, but still folk do not tax their cars. Because money is involved, and the problem is trivial to 'police' (compared to social engineering) there will be no untaxed cars before their are no attacks on minorities.

 

The reality is, if you are different, to those around you, you will most likely be 'investigated'.  Pre-judgements come into play. So, someone who is a bully will want to beat you up, if they think they can get away with it. If they do beat you up, and get caught and punished, you are still beaten up. It doesn't matter who or what you are, whether human or animal, it is part of the way by which 'life' works. It is more important to the bully, that he does his bullying, than his thoughts about you. The only solution is remove all bullies at birth, and then where would we be, when we need a good bully, or not get into the situation where a bully can have his/her way with you. For humans, education wrt to not get into the mental/physical bullying phase, and training for animals for animals, but it will be some time before the lamb can lie down with the lion.

 

Aggression is built into us, and is further encouraged by the media, from the old cowboy films, to computer games, advertisements, employment, etc. It helps in the concept of 'survival of the fittest', the creed that has got us to where we are now, a sort of tribal system. Wherever you look, you will find the same basic situation - interfaces are always difficult, from multi-million pound space rockets, to model railway couplings, to warring countries to dustbin collections, mods and rockers, petrol pumps, tea and sugar - the tricky parts are at the joins.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[jjb1970]

That's fine in so far as it goes but whatever the view on this forum might be there are people who genuinely find homos*xuality disgusting and/or may well be very uneasy about cross-dressing and/or their deeply held religious faith might lead them to hold negative opinions on such subjects (although they would never wish to promulgate hate or violence).  Now these people too are what they are, but they often face prejudice or shame if they dare to express such views because they do not conform with today's politically correct climate.  Does - or should - tolerance work both ways?

 

DT

I think you've answered your own point, if you are not promulgating hate or violence then your views are your own business. If you read my post you'll note that I consider that the right to free speech and expression includes the right to be offensive. What it should not protect is the right to promulgate hate and to impose things on others. If you find homosexuality to be disgusting then you are of course free to hold that view, what I would not consider to be allowable would be to go from holding such a thought to manifesting that view in terms of hateful behaviour towards homosexuals, attempts to deprive homosexuals of amenity or to behave in a way intended to cause distress to homosexuals. I happily admit that this is a very subjective area and it is all down to interpretation and what an individual considers acceptable but on the whole I think the legal system has tended to get this right.

I'm genuinely interested as to why homosexuals might be considered disgusting. Homosexuals are no threat to anybody, in terms of physical aspects of their sexuality it is only expressed towards other homosexuals in private and despite the stereotype of the camp gay the overwhelming majority of homosexuals are no more extrovert or obviously sexualised than the average heterosexual and harm nobody. I really do not see why it should be considered disgusting. My last line manager was a man I worked for over a period of four years who was one of the kindest, most well mannered and intelligent people I have ever known, the fact he was homosexual was entirely irrelevant. I spent years at sea where I lived in a small floating community of typically 12 - 30 people many of whom were homosexual and again I not once found that homosexuality caused any issues of problems on-board.

[Captain Kernow]

Regrettably there seems to be always a thuggish (either physically or mentally) element in our society which is somehow unable to be tolerant of the ways of others when it comes to dress or other matters of lifestyle or simply being who they are.  In some cases the intolerance is - rather alarmingly - bred or taught into them while in others it seems to be some sort of lowest common denominator herd instinct, a sort of 'club' for those incapable of broader or tolerant thought and behaviour.

 

I've always liked something that Isaac Asimov wrote, I think in the 'Foundation' series - 'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'.

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

I wasn't sure whether to post in this thread or not as this week has been a rather major one for me.

 

For many years (certainly since before I was 10) I have desperately wished to be female. This is something I had never admitted to anyone until this year, and had developed quite a few character traits to avoid giving people any clue to these feelings; I would never have watched a TV show on trans people. I have quite separate logical and emotional thought patterns, and the logical ones tended to stamp down on the emotional ones. In many ways this has caused many issues over my life; it has tended to push me into regarding life as something to get over as quickly and painlessly as possible.

 

Last year events caused some changes in my thinking, and pretty much destroyed my logical arguments, although I couldn't bring myself to admit it. Finally earlier this year I came out to my partner and family. Things have moved on since then with my partner being very supportive, some of which people might have noticed. I stopped signing myself with my name on forums and internal work emails early this year, switching to just an initial.

 

Yesterday I finally came out to everyone, moving to be Katy full time (having changed my name 6 weeks ago). Immediate colleagues at work have been told, the rest of the company will find out next week while I am away for the week. Hence a bit of a stressful week, and a bit of a coincidence that this thread turns up this week.

 

This is not an easy thing to do (indeed, after 40 odd years of keeping quiet it isn't easy to say either), but something I need to do to move on. I care little about the labels some people wish to attach.

 

All the best

 

K

[edcayton]

The problem is that we are tribal beings, and that loyalty to the tribe is a highly valued trait. In modern Western society we don't have tribes so we invent them. Loyalty to Queen and Country is "good", to a skinhead gang is "bad" in most people's eyes.

 

Prejudice is loyalty stood on its head. Our basic instinct is to be aware of people from different "tribes". The easiest target is people who look or sound different from us, railway modellers are not so obvious! So, many people from "minority groups" form tribes.

 

Now some folk can't hide their "differences", the most obvious being different racial groups or those with physical disabilities. Some can hide them and do so, some can and are brave enough not to. I don't know if people "choose" their differences. I'm not aware of making a choice to like trains, I just do. Is it a "choice" to be a Goth or a transvestite?

 

Our society has changed rapidly in recent years.  I think we are all uncomfortable about some aspects of that. I'd like to think that the more "intelligent" of us can rise above prejudice although unfortunately there are some very intelligent racists for example. Of course, tribes intersect. On this thread we came here primarily because we like trains and are having a reasoned discussion (who'd have thought?). I suspect that some will have taken one look at the title and run a mile.

 

Respect to the OP for having the courage to raise this, and to the other posters for the thoughtful replies. I thought long and hard about what to write, I hope it's not total b0110x.

 

All the best

 

Ed

 

Seems very trivial after Katy's post which arrived when I was tryping. I did think about deleting this, but I'll let it stand.

Edited September 26, 2015 by edcayton

[BG John]

I wonder how many people who appear to be conventional, and part of a particular tribe, actually feel they don't belong there, and are putting on an act. They may not even know why they don't belong, but don't know how, or are afraid to, try to do something about it. They may not even realise that there's something wrong/different. As I wrote in an earlier comment, putting on an act over many years eventually gets exhausting, and can lead to all sorts of problems. Even hiding an interest in model railways can be a bit stressful at times, when all you're trying to do is avoid some mild embarrassment, so imagine what that's like multiplied many times over, when it's something that can totally turn not only your life, but your family and friend's lives too, upside down.

 

How do I know this? Well I'm currently trying to think up what to say to family and friends about why I've been avoiding them for months. I've been trying to wait until I know definitely, but as the NHS have stuck me on a 12 month waiting list to find out, I'm not sure I can hold out much longer. It's not gender related, but if it's what it appears to be it's due to nature rather than nurture, so can have similarities. Previous posts might give you a clue, but I'm not telling here, yet, as I've still got doubts about it.

[PhilH]

This post may be deleted,I hope not so bear with me. I do wonder if, imperfect as it is, we are entering a finite golden age of acceptance in the UK with regard to tolerance of other ways of living. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that as other ideologies become more prevalent in this country then other ways of living will become less acceptable. Several of these ideologies adopt a 'my way or the highway' approach, indeed in some areas traditional ways of thinking have become virtually outlawed.

 

I do hope this post is not seen as racist, I prefer to think it's more pragmatic in nature as given the fullness of time I feel sure we will all have to accept the inevitable.

 

Thank goodness I'll be pushing up daisies long before that....

Edited September 26, 2015 by PhilH

[BlackRat]

Kickstart (Katy) good luck and best wishes in work, but do remember it is going to be almost as difficult for some of your colleagues as it is for yourself.

 

Cut them some slack, and I am sure in the fullness of time, every thing will be fine.

[Torper]

If you find homosexuality to be disgusting then you are of course free to hold that view, what I would not consider to be allowable would be to go from holding such a thought to manifesting that view in terms of hateful behaviour towards homosexuals, attempts to deprive homosexuals of amenity or to behave in a way intended to cause distress to homosexuals..........I'm genuinely interested as to why homosexuals might be considered disgusting.

 

I did say that "there are people" find homosexuality to be disgusting - it was not a personal statement.  As to why they might be considered disgusting, just google "homeosexuals disgusting" and you'll find out.  It's quite possible that these people can't help their views, or that they are guided by "faith", a concept that i don't really understand.  As for older people, it wasn't all that long ago that homosexuality was a criminal offence, severely frowned upon by society.  It's perhaps unreasonable to expect people brought up in that environment to suddenly change their views just because they're told to do so.

 

Personally, I think that freedom is getting just a little bit one sided.  I fully accept that violent behaviour, or behaviour inciting violence against the gay community is wrong, just as it is against most communities.  On the other hand, I rather sympathise with the B&B owners who had genuinely held religious views and politely declined to offer hospitality to a gay couple.  They didn't hurt or even hate anyone, but they were hauled up before a court and punished and for some time after were subjected to a vicious campaign of vandalism and hate mail.  I'd like to think that in such circumstances the gay couple would have accepted that these people  had genuine and not improper reasons for turning them away and would have shown them the tolerance that they themselves are demanding.

 

DT

[edcayton]

I can very much understand falling in love with someone of the same sex and wanting physical affection. I found/find the idea of what I consider to be the "homosexual sex act" to be distasteful. My sons assure me that this is now a very common heterosexual act, so I don't know. This is quite a long way from the OP, or is it?

 

Ed

[wombatofludham]

Just parking this here as a thought.

 

Every time you see the words "politically correct" in a sentence try replacing them with "treating people with respect".

 

Andi

 

Well said Andi.  I dislike the use of "politically correct" as it is nothing to do with politics and those that use the term do themselves no favours by usually using it in some sneering way. 

 

 

Fortunately the physical threats are, seemingly, in the past.  But as a middle-aged dad, I can still be made to feel uncomfortable when using provincial public transport - by looks, sniggers and comments.  Generally from what I will indulgently describe as unenlightened sectors of society.

 

Sadly, probably my only area of prejudice and bigotry is against those who drain our gene pool down to a gene puddle with their seeming pleasured indulgence in being and showing off  that they are stupid.  I don't apologise for being prejudiced against such people as by and large they choose to be intolerant morons.    

[mightbe]

I can very much understand falling in love with someone of the same sex and wanting physical affection. I found/find the idea of what I consider to be the "homosexual sex act" to be distasteful. My sons assure me that this is now a very common heterosexual act, so I don't know. This is quite a long way from the OP, or is it?

 

If I may divert us a bit further, I find the "heterosuxal act" to be distasteful, though the steady supply of screaming infants on planes, buses and other confined spaces assures me that is in fact quite common. 

 

It is worth mentioning the act of which you speak is actually much more common among heterosexuals than homosexuals, going by the numbers, and always has been. 

 

Quentin

['CHARD]

Oh my!

[BoD]

I'll see your 'Oh my!' And raise you a 'Good grief'.

 

Perhaps I've led too sheltered a life.

 

Edit. To avoid misunderstanding I'm alluding to the last few posts as opposed to the original 'theme' of the thread but then that is moving me toward intolerance of some others. It's a minefield.

Edited September 26, 2015 by BoD

[PhilH]

I'm not too sure what the path this thread is on now has to do with the OP....maybe it's just me.

[Andy Y]

Yes, let's take it back closer to the main subject matter please.

['CHARD]

Good shout Andy and Phil!

 

I had wanted to stress in connection with my earlier post that I'm certainly no wallflower regarding vocal critics. No, just that I abhor violence. I'm quite sure the OP and Ava are both more than capable of looking after themselves, but it shouldn't be necessary, and that to me is the point.

[Southernboy]

Firstly to say much respect to the OP. 

 

A very brave move indeed.

 

I grew up in the 60s when the disfigured / invalides / those with mental health problems / were simply kept indoors or locked away in institutions to save social embarrassment.

 

I am so glad things have moved on.

 

I recall some 20 years ago falling into conversation with a nice old chap in a pub.

 

His wife had recently died.  And so he decided he could finally come out as being gay.

 

He'd spent his whole life in the closet for fear or prosecution and for fear of letting down his wife, his family, and above all, for not fulfilling social expectations of what a 'man' should be.

 

That old gent is probably no longer with us. But it struck me at the time that no one should have to live a totally false life for the whole of their existance on this planet in order to avoid the displeasure / persecution of others. I felt so sorry this nice old chap was never allowed to be his true self in his own lifetime. Very sad.

 

 

Thank goodness things have changed, and good luck to GarrettTheThief  (and anyone else in a similar boat!)

Edited September 26, 2015 by Southernboy

[bike2steam]

(snip) -, or that they are guided by "faith", a concept that i don't really understand.  -(snip)

 

DT

'Faith' in a superstitious religion, or some sort of, supreme being, or superior entity is a human weakness, for those that need guidance through life, the only 'faith' a man needs is in himself, when he has, he is happy with life. Each to their own if it makes you happy, but don't try to preach to me - your wasting your time  .

Edited September 27, 2015 by bike2steam

[gismorail]

I have to admit that I never realised how complicated this thread was going to get. It has certainly opened my eyes to the complex subject and I for one will have greater sympathy for those 'caught' in the gender trap.

 

As somebody posted earlier I'm one of those who is careful as to whom I let know that I'm into model railways .....................so sad really. I often think that those who make a joke about it are missing out on a wonderful hobby and great friendships  maybe it's the same in this case 

[Barry Ten]

I don't have much to add other than to thank the majority of the contributors here for the open-mindedness and tolerance shown - I think it does a real credit to the community.

[bike2steam]

As you say 'gismorail' - so sad, quite frankly I don't give a toss who knows, those that joke about it remind me of a poor character I use to work with a few years ago, all he lived for in life was smoking, and drinking, he was so wound-up, and who could never relax - and they wondered why I laughed.

Edited September 27, 2015 by bike2steam