45 ton Ransomes Crane

[MarkSG]

Was there not a comment from Bachmann on a video posted here some months ago that they regard this model as a most likely one run offering?

 

"Most likely" doesn't mean "definitely".

 

Given the complexity of the tooling, and the uncertainty over how well it will sell, I would expect that their business plan for the model is built around fully recouping development costs on the first run. That would be the sensible option, even if that means it has to be priced a bit higher than if more runs were definitely planned.

 

There's nothing stopping them doing another run, though. It isn't a special commission, and it isn't a limited edition (no numbered certificates, etc). If it was definitely, 100% going to be a single run, then advertising it as a limited edition would actually have been beneficial for sales, because it enhances the collectability and FOMO factors. But they haven't done that. So they've left themselves room for another run, even if the assumption, at the moment, is that there probably won't be one.

 

Whether or not there is a second run will, I think, depend almost entirely on how well the first run sells. If it goes like hot cakes, then another run is almost a certainty (although maybe not particularly soon; i would imagine there are more pressing demands on production slots at the factory). But if it's still lingering at the box shifters after a good length of time - and particularly if it starts dropping into the bargain bucket - then another run almost certainly won't happen. As with all such things, we will have to wait and see.

[Pre Grouping fan]

Was there not a comment from Bachmann on a video posted here some months ago that they regard this model as a most likely one run offering?

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129673-Bachmann-review-of-outstanding-models/?hl=%2Bbachmann+%2Bcrane

 

This one? When they said not to be repeated, I take that as not doing another model like this again rather than only doing one production run. Even so if they do a second run I can see the price creeping towards the £300 mark.

[phil gollin]

 

.....   Whether or not there is a second run will, I think, depend almost entirely on how well the first run sells. If it goes like hot cakes, then another run is almost a certainty (although maybe not particularly soon; i would imagine there are more pressing demands on production slots at the factory). But if it's still lingering at the box shifters after a good length of time - and particularly if it starts dropping into the bargain bucket - then another run almost certainly won't happen. As with all such things, we will have to wait and see.

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Well if they don't do what are likely to be the two most popular livery versions then I doubt we'll see a second run.

 

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['CHARD]

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Well if they don't do what are likely to be the two most popular livery versions then I doubt we'll see a second run.

 

Have you contacted Bachmann to clarify their position surrounding this impending commercial suicide?  It might be worth an email.

[cctransuk]

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Well if they don't do what are likely to be the two most popular livery versions then I doubt we'll see a second run.

 

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..... which means that those who insist on waiting for what may not appear, instead of buying what is available and adapting it to their needs, will have to go without - but then they clearly weren't that committed to owning the model in the first place!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[G-BOAF]

Lets think about tings in terms of livery longevity and tooling mix. Bachmann have commendably tooled a number of variants of the crane, including different jib runners (LNER/WD and SR/GWR) and cranes (internal vs external steam chests) to name they key differences. It would make sense to have the longest lived livery variants available, and this is what they have done. the GWR and SR Cranes were late 1930s, the LNER cranes were wartime replacements for requisitioned cranes. Therefore having pre-nationalisation LNER crane would be much more limited than GWR/SR. This mean that to have the Eastern region and its jib runner represented in this first run, it makes sense to have the BR(ER) Crane. To have done this the other way round (a WR Crane and LNER crane) would have resulted in a much more limited-time-frame LNER crane.

 

Also as I've said recently in other posts, it is common for manufacturers not to release the most popular livery/detail combinations first. This is one means of getting multiple sales - the 'I must have the latest model' crowd will purchase the one that closest fits their needs (or not fits) and then those who are bothered and have the means will purchase a second model when the 'right' version comes out a year or two later. For Bachmann this is two sales.

 

But I can understand it is frustrating for those who want the latest model and want a BR WR or SR crane. Obviously the concerns here are a product of the deep detail variations that Bachmann have tooled. But you have three options. Don't buy now and wait for a possible second batch. Buy the closest match in detail, and repaint, Buy the BR crane and compromise.

 

Personally as a preservation LNER modeller, and Bluebell member I'm thrilled to be able to capture both sides of my own coin in the BR crane! But this is luck. There are a number of other newly tooled models that I'm still waiting for the right livery or number combo.

[phil gollin]

..... which means that those who insist on waiting for what may not appear, instead of buying what is available and adapting it to their needs, will have to go without - but then they clearly weren't that committed to owning the model in the first place!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

.

 

Ahhhhh ......

 

So buy a model you don't want or you have no interest in the right model !

 

You must be a collector.

 

.

[phil gollin]

...... It would make sense to have the longest lived livery variants available, and this is what they have done. .......

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A nice twist in the argument.

 

I was saying most popular, and those would be the Western region and Southern Region in BR Black.

 

IF Bachmann want to be non-commercial that is there choice.

 

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Edited January 20, 2019 by phil gollin

[GreenGiraffe22]

What sort of Southern locos would be used to pull the cranes to where they need to go, whatever was avaliable or were the cranes particularly heavy?

 

Is this one behind an N?

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/N_class_1412_breakdown_train.jpg/1280px-N_class_1412_breakdown_train.jpg

[The Stationmaster]

"Most likely" doesn't mean "definitely".

 

Given the complexity of the tooling, and the uncertainty over how well it will sell, I would expect that their business plan for the model is built around fully recouping development costs on the first run. That would be the sensible option, even if that means it has to be priced a bit higher than if more runs were definitely planned.

 

There's nothing stopping them doing another run, though. It isn't a special commission, and it isn't a limited edition (no numbered certificates, etc). If it was definitely, 100% going to be a single run, then advertising it as a limited edition would actually have been beneficial for sales, because it enhances the collectability and FOMO factors. But they haven't done that. So they've left themselves room for another run, even if the assumption, at the moment, is that there probably won't be one.

 

Whether or not there is a second run will, I think, depend almost entirely on how well the first run sells. If it goes like hot cakes, then another run is almost a certainty (although maybe not particularly soon; i would imagine there are more pressing demands on production slots at the factory). But if it's still lingering at the box shifters after a good length of time - and particularly if it starts dropping into the bargain bucket - then another run almost certainly won't happen. As with all such things, we will have to wait and see.

 

The Blue Pullman landed in Bachmann's factory clearance 'bargain bucket' but it was subsequently repeated albeit with a slightly revised 'offer'.  I realise that Bachmann are a lot cuter at repeats than Hornby's dire addiction to Year 1/Year2 issues which has sometimes served them ill in the past.  But overall it depends on lots of factors and a second run with what are potentially more popular models (such as plain black WR/SR 'liveries') would be a strong possibility as Bachmann are generally pretty clever with their marketing.

What sort of Southern locos would be used to pull the cranes to where they need to go, whatever was avaliable or were the cranes particularly heavy?

 

Is this one behind an N?

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/N_class_1412_breakdown_train.jpg/1280px-N_class_1412_breakdown_train.jpg

 

As with any breakdown job it would be first available loco provided it could go (clearance wise) where the crane was needed.  in steam days it could therefore quite likely be the shed standby pilot which was kept ready in steam at many sheds 'just in case' but fora pre-arranged job such as bridge renewal it would most likely be a suitable loco for shifting whatever load was involved and it might even depend on who got a share of Sunday turns.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The weight of the crane and jib was carried on six axles as far as I can see and apparently complied with a 15 ton maximum axle load requirement. So 90 tons plus the other two "trucks" so  about 110 - 120 tons. Add another 40 to 60 for vans, etc. and so probably still under 200 tons. That would put it within the capability of an 0-6-0 goods loco or similar.

[cctransuk]

.

 

Ahhhhh ......

 

So buy a model you don't want or you have no interest in the right model !

 

You must be a collector.

 

.

 

Nope - quite the opposite.

 

You will see if you read my previous postings that I want an ex-GWR, BR-era crane.

 

I will therefore buy the nearest available - the GWR crane - and repaint it into BR livery.

 

That way, I have what I want without risking the non-appearance of the ex-GWR, BR-era crane.

 

.... and I get to do some modelling, and thereby make my crane personal to me!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Thanks for the above replies, sounds like a job for perhaps one of my C Classes?

[Tramshed]

The weight of the crane and jib was carried on six axles as far as I can see and apparently complied with a 15 ton maximum axle load requirement. So 90 tons plus the other two "trucks" so  about 110 - 120 tons. Add another 40 to 60 for vans, etc. and so probably still under 200 tons. That would put it within the capability of an 0-6-0 goods loco or similar.

My understanding is that, while not increasing the overall weight of the train, the weight of crane and jib was carried on 10 axles. The 2 4-wheeled vehicles either side of the crane were 'relieving bogies'. The crane itself would be quite heavy even on 4 axles and since they presumably had to be 'go anywhere' vehicles there were issues of weak bridges etc that came into play while the consist was in transit from depot to work site.

 

The linkage between the crane and the bogies was arranged such that the bogies carried some of the weight of the crane. The situation could be likened to an injured footballer walking off the pitch on the shoulders of 2 companions to avoid putting too much weight on an injured leg! (I suppose). When on site the bogies could be detached. The bogies were patented by Wilfred S Stokes of the Ransome and Rapier company but adopted by other makers later.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Tramshed

[MarkSG]

Also as I've said recently in other posts, it is common for manufacturers not to release the most popular livery/detail combinations first. This is one means of getting multiple sales - the 'I must have the latest model' crowd will purchase the one that closest fits their needs (or not fits) and then those who are bothered and have the means will purchase a second model when the 'right' version comes out a year or two later. For Bachmann this is two sales.

 

Another reason for holding back the version you expect to be most popular is to have something that will justify a second production run. The first run will generally sell the best, precisely because it is the first. So if that's also the version that's most in demand, then the market may not sustain a second run. But holding back a version expected to be popular will even out the sales over multiple runs.

 

As far as the choice of liveries for this particular model, I think Bachmann have made a pretty good selection. You have BR in two colours and two regions, and two different Big Four versions. It's a good spread, both visually and geographically.

 

Given that there's only one possible option for Midland region, the red one (the crane never carried LMS colours or BR(M) black), that has to be the starting point when picking four initial liveries. Then, the rest are those which go best with that as a varied selection. If they'd released a BR(W) black version this time, it would be hard to justify either a BR(E) black or GWR version at the same time, as there would be too much overlap either in colour or geography. So the other two options would have to be LNER black and SR grey (to keep the split of two BR and two Big Four, and four different regions). But then you've got two black ones, including the one (LNER) that's likely to be the least popular. By going in first with BR(E) black and GWR grey, it evens out potential demand.

[Jol Wilkinson]

My understanding is that, while not increasing the overall weight of the train, the weight of crane and jib was carried on 10 axles. The 2 4-wheeled vehicles either side of the crane were 'relieving bogies'. The crane itself would be quite heavy even on 4 axles and since they presumably had to be 'go anywhere' vehicles there were issues of weak bridges etc that came into play while the consist was in transit from depot to work site.

 

The linkage between the crane and the bogies was arranged such that the bogies carried some of the weight of the crane. The situation could be likened to an injured footballer walking off the pitch on the shoulders of 2 companions to avoid putting too much weight on an injured leg! (I suppose). When on site the bogies could be detached. The bogies were patented by Wilfred S Stokes of the Ransome and Rapier company but adopted by other makers later.

Assuming 15t tons  maximum on all ten axles then a total of up to 150 tons.

 

I would be interested to see how the linkage/coupling transferring weight to the relieving bogies worked.

[Wild Boar Fell]

I think it is a reasonably safe assumption that at some point in the future Bachmann will produce a BR(W) black version. I certainly hope so!

 

There has been a considerable investment in the tooling for this model and the tooling is such that any of the eight prototype cranes can be produced for any time-frame, so I would think that Bachmann will be looking to produce more variants in the future even if only to recoup the development costs.

 

Remember also (as I seem to recall posting many months ago) that the prototypes for this model carried many liveries:-

 

• GWR grey
• BR(W) unlined black (no totem), with or without white bits
• SR grey
• BR(S) lined black, early or late totem
• BR(S) red, lined or unlined
• BR(M) red
• LNER black
• BR(E) lined black, early or late totem
• BR(W) yellow

 

That makes 13 different possibilities for starters and the list may well not be exhaustive. Since cranes tended to be painted on rather an ad-hoc basis, very often no two were quite alike, and take this, and the different running numbers, into account and there are more than 30 variants, and this is not including the random hazard stripes which have appeared and disappeared over the ages.

 

Arguably BR(W) black and BR(S) black or red would probably have the most wide-ranging appeal of all the possibilities.

 

I fully expect that we will see further liveries after the first four in due course, provided of course that people actually go out and buy this model!

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if the Longmoor liveried crane appears somewhere down the line too.

[Zero Gravitas]

Nope - quite the opposite.

 

You will see if you read my previous postings that I want an ex-GWR, BR-era crane.

 

I will therefore buy the nearest available - the GWR crane - and repaint it into BR livery.

 

That way, I have what I want without risking the non-appearance of the ex-GWR, BR-era crane.

 

.... and I get to do some modelling, and thereby make my crane personal to me!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

I have a vague memory that much, much earlier in this thread, the Stationmaster (who has some knowledge of these things) indicated that the GW crane stayed in GW livery for a very long time after nationalisation (possibly more than a decade) - so it might be worth checking depending on exactly when you want to represent the crane.

 

Apologies in advance if my memory is faulty...

[cctransuk]

I have a vague memory that much, much earlier in this thread, the Stationmaster (who has some knowledge of these things) indicated that the GW crane stayed in GW livery for a very long time after nationalisation (possibly more than a decade) - so it might be worth checking depending on exactly when you want to represent the crane.

 

Apologies in advance if my memory is faulty...

 

To date, my researches indicate that, at some point as yet undefined, the ex-GWR cranes were repainted black.

 

If anyone can help to pin down that date, I would be most grateful.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Enterprisingwestern]

..... which means that those who insist on waiting for what may not appear, instead of buying what is available and adapting it to their needs, will have to go without - but then they clearly weren't that committed to owning the model in the first place!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

.

 

Ahhhhh ......

 

So buy a model you don't want or you have no interest in the right model !

 

You must be a collector.

 

.

 

I read that to indicate John is a realist!

 

Mike.

[Tramshed]

Assuming 15t tons  maximum on all ten axles then a total of up to 150 tons.

 

I would be interested to see how the linkage/coupling transferring weight to the relieving bogies worked.

 

 

if you type 'stokes patent relieving bogies' into your browser you will find plenty of 'images' as well as a link to the 'breakdown crane association' (yes there is an association for just about everything it seems!) which is pretty good at describing how it works. It also gives information on axle weights. Hope this helps.

[craneman]

What sort of Southern locos would be used to pull the cranes to where they need to go, whatever was avaliable or were the cranes particularly heavy?

 

Is this one behind an N?

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/N_class_1412_breakdown_train.jpg/1280px-N_class_1412_breakdown_train.jpg

 

The crane in that photo is either 80S or 81S, both 36-tonners supplied in 1927, although there is nothing in the photo that enables an individual identity to be made (with context, date, or more information about the loco it might be possible to deduce which it is). So they are significantly different, albeit basically similar, to the Bachmann model.

 

Both cranes lasted for years, since the 36-tonners were generally preferred by cranemen to the 45-tonners (quicker to set up, and actually just as strong). 80S become DS80 then ADRR95225, and was allocated to Ashford, Guildford, Eastleigh, Hither Green, and finally Stewart's Lane before being broken up. 81S became DS81 then ADRR95201, and was allocated to Brighton, Fratton, Guildford, and finally Stewart's Lane. This crane escaped the cutter's torch and is preserved on the K&ESR.

One of the pair overturned in the Up yard at Wimbledon during WW2 and a photograph of this event has appeared in many publications, albeit invariably with the crane misidentified as 35S.

 

The weight of the crane and jib was carried on six axles as far as I can see and apparently complied with a 15 ton maximum axle load requirement. So 90 tons plus the other two "trucks" so  about 110 - 120 tons. Add another 40 to 60 for vans, etc. and so probably still under 200 tons. That would put it within the capability of an 0-6-0 goods loco or similar.

 

For the GWR 45-tonners, the total weight of the crane in running formation is 125 tons 5cwt. Attached is a scan of the appropriate page of the 1972 BR(W) Traveling Crane Diagram booklet. In train formation the weight is carried by the four axles of the crane carriage and the four axles of the relieving bogies, this is their purpose. In addition, much of the weight of the jib is carried by the jib runner. Remember that these cranes were specifically designed on the instruction of the Air Raid Precautions Committee to conform to the British Composite Loading Gauge (which of course includes maximum permissible axle loading) and were able to run on any UK main line, including the Hasting line.

 

 

Assuming 15t tons  maximum on all ten axles then a total of up to 150 tons.

 

I would be interested to see how the linkage/coupling transferring weight to the relieving bogies worked.

The Stokes RB is a very simple device. There is a triangular frame pinned at two points to the headstock of the crane, the pins beign vertically aligned and vertically oriented. This of course means that the triangular frame can swing from side-to-side but has no other freedom of movement. The far end of the frame from the crane has a spherical bearing which is vertically aligned with the centre of the RB. Within the RB is the matching half of the spherical bearing, mounted in a way which enables it to be adjusted up and down. By this means, weight can be transferred from the crane to the bogie by, in effect, lifting the outboard end of the triangular frame.

 

After the immediate and obvious success (and indeed the proven necessity if axle loads were to be moderated) of the Stokes RB, both Craven Brothers and Cowans, Sheldon & Co introduced their own designs which had to be sufficiently different to circumvent Stokes's patents, and as a result both are more complex yet no more satisfactory. On the early R&R RB cranes the adjustment was made by means of a large handwheel and a screw-jack arrangement on the RB, but from the first military crane order (i.e., the order immediately after the two for the LNER) a change was made to hydraulic operation, which was easier to operate and much more satisfactory.

 

There is a significant amount of evidence to suggest that few, if any, BDC crews actually knew how to set-up the early screw-adjusted RBs correctly, and there are many cases where it is very clear that cranes are running shockingly maladjusted. In this respect the hydraulic system was decidedly superior.

 

The image below is a scan of part of the R&R GA drawing for the RBs for the two LNER cranes, note that the order book records this as an MoS order since the order was placed by the Ministry of Supply to replace the two cranes that had just been requisition from the LNER for military service in the Gulf.

 

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if the Longmoor liveried crane appears somewhere down the line too.

Whilst you should never say "never", I think that it is exceedingly unlikely that Bachmann will produce a Longmoor crane. The reason is that, as described above, the hydraulic RBs are very obviously quite different to any of the earlier cranes and Bachmann has not produced tooling for them. For the same reason, it is unlikely that you will ever get a model of DS1580, the ex-Exmouth Junction crane now in operation on the MHR, the only non-military crane to have hydraulic RBs.

 

It makes little sense to tool up for this RB since the market for such a model is miniscule (how many people actually model the Longmoor Military Railway?) and whilst a model of DS1580 would probably be reasonably popular, a set of RB tooling to produce one single and very specialised prototype is unliley to be viable, so personally I think it isn't going to happen. Perhaps there is an opportunity for a 3D-printing specialist (such as Wild Boar Models?) to offer a conversion kit with the necessary parts.

 

There is, I suppose, no reason why Bachmann in the future couldn't take the nearest match to DS1580 and release it as such, but given the huge effort that they've made to achieve the greatest accuracy possible I think this is unlikely. It is one thing for Hornby to paint its ghastly toy Cowans, Sheldon 75-tonner in lined BR black and number it DS1580, but this hideous abortion is aimed at a very different market to Bachmann's scale model.

 

I have a vague memory that much, much earlier in this thread, the Stationmaster (who has some knowledge of these things) indicated that the GW crane stayed in GW livery for a very long time after nationalisation (possibly more than a decade) - so it might be worth checking depending on exactly when you want to represent the crane.

 

Apologies in advance if my memory is faulty...

You could argue that the ex_GW cranes stayed in GW livery to the end. The 45-tonners were grey initially then were painted black with white details, although there is no single date when the change was made (it would undoubtedly have happened when each crane needed repainting). By 1939 the standard GW livery for breakdown cranes was black with white details, so to an extent the 45-tonners were already an exception. The only difference post-Nationalisation was that those cranes which had carried "G W" lettering lost it. The cranes which remained on the Western were never painted any colour other than black (at least not until in an unfortunate moment of questionable taste Laira painted one yellow) and never carried BR branding. Apart from haphazardly gaining random yellow and black stripes on some, they were either grey or black from birth to death.

Edited January 21, 2019 by craneman

[craneman]

You can find a lot more detail about relieving bogies including many photos at  http://www.bdca.org.uk/design.html

[MikeParkin65]

Excellent detailed article on rail mounted travelling cranes in this months Steam Days magazine

[YesTor]

Was there not a comment from Bachmann on a video posted here some months ago that they regard this model as a most likely one run offering?

 

Dunno, but having a casual chat with the rep on the Bachmann stand at DEMU 2018 and he seemed more than happy to discuss future potential liveries.  I suppose as with any product if there is sufficient demand then the supply will follow.

Edited January 24, 2019 by YesTor