BobM Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 Hi BobM, I just found your thread and I hope you won't mind me joining in, but I have a couple of photos that may put your mind at ease regarding ballasting around Peco pointwork - BTW provided it was the diluted PVA that squirted over your points and you mopped up the worst, you should be OK. As others have mentioned, diluting it with water and then drying should do the trick. Regarding ballasting around pointwork, this is what worked for me, YMMV: When ballasting around the points, greater care needs to be taken that the particles of granite or sand don't get trapped in the frog or between the check rails, nor behind (or under) the blade and especially between the tie-bar and the adjoining sleepers - it does happen and seems unavoidable, but it can be minimised. Using a suitable dispenser (I use an old plastic yogurt pot) tip a little of your dry ballast from the the frog towards the tie-bar. When you get towards the tie-bar, don't be in a hurry to tip too much at once a little at a time is better - or use the tip of an old tea-spoon to place small quantities to both sides of the tie-bar (but not on it, if possible ). With your finger, tamp down on the ballast and spread it between the sleepers adding a little more if needed. A small soft brush can help to place the ballast - though I did find in certain cases static electricity could cause the ballast to attach itself to the bristles - not what you want around the tie-bar. A soft brush is better, I found, as harder bristles may flick the ballast about. Repeat the procedure on both the through and diverging lines of the point - this time I found working back towards the frog and the heel (the part where the blades start) was easier than trying to do it the other way. As before, tip enough ballast between the sleepers to form small heaps and reducing the amounts as you get towards the blades. As there is little space between the stock rails and the running rails, if you have as I have phat phingers, you will need to carefully work the ballast into the small spaces with your brush. Now is the time to check that your points still move freely. If they stick then it's either ballast caught between the tie-bar and one (or both) of the adjoining sleepers or caught under one of the blades or just resting on a sleeper behind one of the blades. DON'T BLOW (ha ha) !!! Use a sharp cocktail stick to remove the offending particle. As you have already done: fine water mist + a couple drops of washing up liquid then 50:50 PVA:Water + a drop of washing up liquid. I missed what you used for flooding with PVA, but I used an eye-dropper - much more accurate especially for placing the PVA in and around the blades and tie-bar. Once you've applied the PVA and it's started to dry move the blades occasionally so that any PVA will not stick. When dry, look for any obvious particles that may have 'floated' - some will, usually in the web of the rail. Using a cocktail stick you can pick them off. If the blades are stuck, a little even pressure will usually break the bond and release any particles that may have floated underneath. If they won't close properly it'll be usually no more than a particle stuck on the back of the blade or between the tie-bar and sleeper. I saw you'd raise a point regarding infilling of the rails. On YouTube, Everard Junction showed how to created inset rails using plaster (there are probably lots of other 'how-to videos out there). He did the whole lot in one go, using a trowel to expose the rail tops. IIRC, he then ran an old wagon along the tracks as the plaster was hardening to make grooves in it. When dry, he chased the plaster out along the groove using a Dremel and small cutting wheel. I chickened out . I plastered to both outer sides of the running rails and used a trowel to smoothe along the tops. As I wanted to represent concrete, when the plaster was hardening I grooved the 'concrete' into panels. In between the rails, I dry-ballasted as normal but then added a layer of fine sand over the top to hide the sleepers and then wetted it as above. I think I should dirty my ballast more as its a pseudo-steam/diesel depôt as I happen to like your black - now that looks the part! I apologise in advance regarding the picture quality - a bit too close for the flash and too dark to use manual focussing. BTW, my 'ballast' is builders' sand dried in the oven and then a number of various domestic strainers to get the right grade - SWMBO never saw a thing! P1000750.JPG Track laying in progress DSCF0052.JPG Track ballasted - a small amount of 'ballast' in and around the sleepers and then fine sand over and alongside - really needs more dirtying. DSCF0054.JPG Pointwork ballasted plus 'concrete' fuel bay - plus section of mainline - the ballast there has had little colouring done to it. DSCF0055.JPG Inset rails - but just ballasted in-between. DSCF0061.JPG Close-up of the ballasting around the tie-bar. (The hole is for a yard-lamp). I hope the above can be of use to you in doing your pointwork. Good luck, Cheers, Philip Hi Philip...... Thank you so much for the super posting and advice..... thankfully all appears well at the moment, the prompt mopping up I think assisted in keeping the damage to a minimum.....I am very much a novice so your advice is much appreciated.....I too used sand silver sand from work, baked in the oven until dry and fine, looks super as ballast.....also mixed in with standard woodland scenics..... Regards always.... Bob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Very good progress Bob and Phils post looks great! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) Hi BobM, I just found your thread and I hope you won't mind me joining in, but I have a couple of photos that may put your mind at ease regarding ballasting around Peco pointwork - BTW provided it was the diluted PVA that squirted over your points and you mopped up the worst, you should be OK. As others have mentioned, diluting it with water and then drying should do the trick. Regarding ballasting around pointwork, this is what worked for me, YMMV: When ballasting around the points, greater care needs to be taken that the particles of granite or sand don't get trapped in the frog or between the check rails, nor behind (or under) the blade and especially between the tie-bar and the adjoining sleepers - it does happen and seems unavoidable, but it can be minimised. Using a suitable dispenser (I use an old plastic yogurt pot) tip a little of your dry ballast from the the frog towards the tie-bar. When you get towards the tie-bar, don't be in a hurry to tip too much at once a little at a time is better - or use the tip of an old tea-spoon to place small quantities to both sides of the tie-bar (but not on it, if possible ). With your finger, tamp down on the ballast and spread it between the sleepers adding a little more if needed. A small soft brush can help to place the ballast - though I did find in certain cases static electricity could cause the ballast to attach itself to the bristles - not what you want around the tie-bar. A soft brush is better, I found, as harder bristles may flick the ballast about. Repeat the procedure on both the through and diverging lines of the point - this time I found working back towards the frog and the heel (the part where the blades start) was easier than trying to do it the other way. As before, tip enough ballast between the sleepers to form small heaps and reducing the amounts as you get towards the blades. As there is little space between the stock rails and the running rails, if you have as I have phat phingers, you will need to carefully work the ballast into the small spaces with your brush. Now is the time to check that your points still move freely. If they stick then it's either ballast caught between the tie-bar and one (or both) of the adjoining sleepers or caught under one of the blades or just resting on a sleeper behind one of the blades. DON'T BLOW (ha ha) !!! Use a sharp cocktail stick to remove the offending particle. As you have already done: fine water mist + a couple drops of washing up liquid then 50:50 PVA:Water + a drop of washing up liquid. I missed what you used for flooding with PVA, but I used an eye-dropper - much more accurate especially for placing the PVA in and around the blades and tie-bar. Once you've applied the PVA and it's started to dry move the blades occasionally so that any PVA will not stick. When dry, look for any obvious particles that may have 'floated' - some will, usually in the web of the rail. Using a cocktail stick you can pick them off. If the blades are stuck, a little even pressure will usually break the bond and release any particles that may have floated underneath. If they won't close properly it'll be usually no more than a particle stuck on the back of the blade or between the tie-bar and sleeper. I saw you'd raise a point regarding infilling of the rails. On YouTube, Everard Junction showed how to created inset rails using plaster (there are probably lots of other 'how-to videos out there). He did the whole lot in one go, using a trowel to expose the rail tops. IIRC, he then ran an old wagon along the tracks as the plaster was hardening to make grooves in it. When dry, he chased the plaster out along the groove using a Dremel and small cutting wheel. I chickened out . I plastered to both outer sides of the running rails and used a trowel to smoothe along the tops. As I wanted to represent concrete, when the plaster was hardening I grooved the 'concrete' into panels. In between the rails, I dry-ballasted as normal but then added a layer of fine sand over the top to hide the sleepers and then wetted it as above. I think I should dirty my ballast more as its a pseudo-steam/diesel depôt as I happen to like your black - now that looks the part! I apologise in advance regarding the picture quality - a bit too close for the flash and too dark to use manual focussing. BTW, my 'ballast' is builders' sand dried in the oven and then a number of various domestic strainers to get the right grade - SWMBO never saw a thing! P1000750.JPG Track laying in progress DSCF0052.JPG Track ballasted - a small amount of 'ballast' in and around the sleepers and then fine sand over and alongside - really needs more dirtying. DSCF0054.JPG Pointwork ballasted plus 'concrete' fuel bay - plus section of mainline - the ballast there has had little colouring done to it. DSCF0055.JPG Inset rails - but just ballasted in-between. DSCF0061.JPG Close-up of the ballasting around the tie-bar. (The hole is for a yard-lamp). I hope the above can be of use to you in doing your pointwork. Good luck, Cheers, Philip For (my) reference.... added an image of a point.....so I can reference which end of the point to start ballasting from Edited January 11, 2019 by BobM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 (edited) Hello BobM, I saw our posts crossed yesterday and I'm so pleased your pointwork was OK. Just for guidance using your point drawing as reference, the order of ballasting was: 1. From the frog to the tie-bar, right to left (in the opposite direction to the blue arrows) , 2. The short section of the through line towards the tie-bar, left to right, 3. One of the two 'arms' of the point again right to left, and; 4. The remaining arm right to left. Once all tamped and brushed, wet and glue (in no particular order). Cheers and good luck, Philip Edit: I got so caught up in ballasting between the rails I forgot to mention the outer edges. The only area to take greater care is in and around the ends of the tie bar. I chose to dry ballast up to the end of the tie-bar when in a closed position and then open the point. The tie-bar would clear its own path in the dry ballast - any excess I cleared with the dry brush and tamped the rest with my finger. Same procedure for the other side. When happy, wet'n'glue. It is inevitable that some PVA will find its way between the tie-bar and the sleeper - so don't be tempted to flood too much in one go. When the PVA is going off, work the tie-bar back and forth to keep it as free as possible. When dry, check its movement and look out for those pesky particles . And a re-edit: I did the pointwork ballasting in two stages - between the rails and then the outer edges (the order isn't important). What I found helped was to let whatever was done first to 'go off' (hard but not necessarily fully dry) before continuing. When you get up to speed a point can be done in an hour's worth of work as you can part-do one point and get started on another as the PVA is going off on the first. Edited January 12, 2019 by Philou 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 Hello BobM, I saw our posts crossed yesterday and I'm so pleased your pointwork was OK. Just for guidance using your point drawing as reference, the order of ballasting was: 1. From the frog to the tie-bar, right to left (in the opposite direction to the blue arrows) , 2. The short section of the through line towards the tie-bar, left to right, 3. One of the two 'arms' of the point again right to left, and; 4. The remaining arm right to left. Once all tamped and brushed, wet and glue (in no particular order). Cheers and good luck, Philip Edit: I got so caught up in ballasting between the rails I forgot to mention the outer edges. The only area to take greater care is in and around the ends of the tie bar. I chose to dry ballast up to the end of the tie-bar when in a closed position and then open the point. The tie-bar would clear its own path in the dry ballast - any excess I cleared with the dry brush and tamped the rest with my finger. Same procedure for the other side. When happy, wet'n'glue. It is inevitable that some PVA will find its way between the tie-bar and the sleeper - so don't be tempted to flood too much in one go. When the PVA is going off, work the tie-bar back and forth to keep it as free as possible. When dry, check its movement and look out for those pesky particles . And a re-edit: I did the pointwork ballasting in two stages - between the rails and then the outer edges (the order isn't important). What I found helped was to let whatever was done first to 'go off' (hard but not necessarily fully dry) before continuing. When you get up to speed a point can be done in an hour's worth of work as you can part-do one point and get started on another as the PVA is going off on the first. Cheers Philip.... Brilliant information....thank you..... Regards always.... Bob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold lezz01 Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 Hi Bob. Where did you find the moving diagram? It's quite good but the terminology is a bit odd is it an American thing? The term frog is something I haven't seen used for a very long time and only used in models. Point blades is another anachronism I haven't seen used for a long time as well. The correct terms would be acute crossing and switch rails. Oh dear I seem to have become a fine scale snob in my old age I guess my EM and S4 modeling days stuck eh!? Regards Lez. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 Hi Bob. Where did you find the moving diagram? It's quite good but the terminology is a bit odd is it an American thing? The term frog is something I haven't seen used for a very long time and only used in models. Point blades is another anachronism I haven't seen used for a long time as well. The correct terms would be acute crossing and switch rails. Oh dear I seem to have become a fine scale snob in my old age I guess my EM and S4 modeling days stuck eh!? Regards Lez. Hi... A 'rivet counter' by any other name...... you're all the same...! I just had it on file..... Regards always....have a great weekend.... Bob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold lezz01 Posted January 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2019 It's a fair cop gov. I can be a bit precious about track work Bob. I've always liked building fine scale track and getting as close to the prototype as possible. It's one of the reasons I have gone with diesel era and a made up location in 00, I just don't have enough space to model a MR steam era track layout not in P4 anyway. Regards Lez. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 Hi All,,,,,, The 'yard ballast' is setting, but having a sand content this is taking a while longer...will let harden further before continuing......thinking ahead to the next step as the goods yard is developed and the scenery built around it......I intend to begin the track section wiring of the engine shed.............an area where things can get really 'mucky'.... Regards always...... Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) Evening all...... Hope all you kind guys are well and your weekend has gone well......? Just a quick update on the state of play.......no further work has been undertaken tonight as it's been a day on the SVR at Arley (even though we are now in winter maintenance shutdown period until 16th February, when passenger services recommence), station life continues.....we're busy, colleagues undertaking some much needed replastering and soon to be repainting of the SMO in traditional GWR colours....... .......for myself, (despite having put my back out recently and therefore some discomfort) the task today has been to begin replacing the station's boundary fence.....using a post borer, heavy duty thumper, large diameter posts and a bad back don't mix well....but needs must.....! Anyway ...have taken a look at the 'setting' goods yard...and this is how 'she blows this evening'....seems okay and a reasonably sand / ballast surface to key the to soon to be applied DAS clay.....? Take care guys..... Regards always 'Bad back' Bob Edited January 13, 2019 by BobM 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Should look good with the clay over it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) Should look good with the clay over it! Hi...... I am hopeful yes.....looking at the advice om Chris Nevard's site.....best to undertake this in small sections.....so will do so and post accordingly.....hopefully too the ballast mix may give this a rougher texture as well as keying it into the yard..... We'll see eh....(exciting stuff)....have two slabs of (white) DAS clay,,, Regards always... Bob Edited January 13, 2019 by BobM 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb67 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Looks good so far Bob, it is best to work in small sections as the clay stars going off pretty qiuck, I also wouldn't put it on too thick, just smear it over the surface until you get the look you want, study any photo's you have for ideas, maybe leaving some sleepers showing and you could prob put a few puddles in somewhere. Good luck. Steve. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 14, 2019 Author Share Posted January 14, 2019 (edited) Evening Guys......Hope all are well...? DAS clay and myself have been 'out on our first date' this evening and like any first night out...it has been a question of getting to know each other and unsure whether you'll hit it off ....? I'll leave posting personal comments until what I have applied has gone off, added to and possibly weathered down.....but please I'd appreciate your input as always...... Decided to test the application on a small section of the goods yard road, as if this doesn't meet with approval can be ballasted again and blended back into the overall effect...... The block of white DAS clay was opened, the slab having a small piece cut off for use, both then being wrapped in clingfilm the former then being put into the salad crisper compartment of the fridge for storage...... Never having seen or used DAS clay before, I was unsure of what to expect......surprisingly malleable it does indeed dry quite speedily, even wrapped up in clingfilm and small pieces broken off, it is best to use in small quantities....... .......using small bits I did spread and thumb in firstly into the 4' then into each side of the 6'......can be a bit messy to use....and a bit of a what-not to keep off the chairs, both within the 4' and rail sides.....but after an hour the result was thus...... will 'expand the area' on our 'next date'......unless either of us get cold feet.....! Comments appreciated..... Regards always Edited January 14, 2019 by BobM 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Gotta be brutally honest Bob... I think it’s brilliant it really does look the part. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold lezz01 Posted January 14, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2019 That looks good Bob. Regards Lez. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb67 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 That looks great Bob. Steve. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) Hi...... Spent an hour or so expanding the area of DAS application to bring up the levels of the replicated ash surface within the goods yard........the results here......remain a little 'hesitant' as to just how exactly the final effect created, will unfold or end up....but I will carry on........ I am minded to tweak a few of the gaps here on this section then weather up the area so far created. as it is possible the 'white out' effect here of the applied DAS which is making me somewhat uncertain.......before moving on to the next area.... The application of DAS clay (probably irrespective of whether white or red is used) has done two things, it has removed the previously applied 'sleeper grime' and the painted rail sides, so the sleepers will have to be painted once more, after the overall white has been eradicated...... Will let this set overnight and tone down the white on the next Cambrian Street visit...... Comments as always appreciated....... Regards always.... Bob Edited January 15, 2019 by BobM 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) Looks good Bob Edited January 16, 2019 by danstercivicman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 Hello my good friends....hope one and all are well....? Undertook an hours 'tweaking' on the Das clay work already applied to the sidings within the goods yard,,,,,,last evening I mentioned that I intended the next step to include the beginning of the 'removal' of the white appearance of the Das clay before moving on....? However, leaving the applied clay to set overnight and 'sleeping on' the results.....what I had thought would be okay, being fine to leave and move on....but in the cold light of the morning I realised that that initial thought was incorrect..... ..........the result wasn't either clean enough, had many gaps, these particularly around the sleeper ends and the overall the detail for me, just wasn't 'good enough'......maybe I am getting 'picky'...? So....decided to spend a little further time, correcting that lack of 'care' and to work with a little more slowly and thought, attempting to bring up the quality a bit..... spending more time on each smaller section rather than 'blazing on' to complete things quickly..... .......here are images of the area worked upon this evening....further areas require attention and will move on to these later, updating as this is completed.... Regards always..... Bob 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold lezz01 Posted January 16, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2019 Looking forward to seeing some colour on it Bob mate. Regards Lez. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Try not to be disheartened Bob it looks good 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) Hi...... Hopefully tomorrow evening will see the beginning of the process to 'wash out' that brilliant white effect of the applied DAS clay...... .........planning to use initially a dilute pale grey with a hint of dark earth but at this stage noting too dark..... Any suggestions for an alternative base colour....? Regards always.... Bob Edited January 17, 2019 by BobM 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold lezz01 Posted January 17, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 parts burnt umber to 1 part black if using powder paints or 3 parts 29 dark earth to one part 33 back if using humbol Bob. Regards Lez. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 parts burnt umber to 1 part black if using powder paints or 3 parts 29 dark earth to one part 33 back if using humbol Bob. Regards Lez. Hi Lez..... Thanks for the advice...would that be applied in thinned mixture too.....or straight in those ratios...? Regards always.... Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now