Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[spamcan61]

Then there's Berlin's latest airport, 9 years late and 4 billion EUR over budget.

[DY444]

Just got back from a ride on the new line.  Very impressive overall.  The trains I used ran to time, and were quite well filled, a few rail enthusiasts, but largely just common or garden ordinary passengers which bodes well.  The only thing I didn't like much were the art "clouds" on the roof of the entrance at Paddington.  It is admittedly a grey day today in London but, in the light prevalent when I was there, it just looked like the glass hadn't been cleaned properly!

 

As has already been said the platforms are very long and quick interchanges are going to be more dependent than usual on being in roughly the right part of the train.  I have a feeling too that the route to/from the entrance at Paddington might become a pinch point around the end of platform 1 at busier times especially in the minutes after a long distance train has arrived in that platform (which happened just as I emerged).  Obviously everyone on the core is being tipped out at Paddington at present which possibly makes it worse so we'll see but long distance passengers will still be changing there until Old Oak opens.

 

Thumbs up overall though and I suspect the cost and schedule overruns will very quickly be forgotten as they were with the JLE.

Edited May 25, 2022 by DY444

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Interchange from the Circle/District/Bakerloo shouldn't be too bad - come up the steps on to the Lawn and turn left to get outside and the EL station is in front of you. Though note that the other set of steps up from the Bakerloo Line ticket hall that came out near the high numbered platforms appears to have been blocked off (possibly due to Covid).

 

Alternatively if changing from the Circle/District, you can exit Praed Street station, cross the road and go up the left hand side of the hotel to reach the EL. 

'The other steps' to the Bakerloo Line ticket hall looked (on Monday this week) to be rather permanently closed.  I wonder if a big reason for closing this - extremely useful - access could be linked to a poster in the main booking hall/barrier area which says that access to the Bakerloo Line will be closed for safety reasons at busy times to prevent overcrowding.    I don't know if the Bakerloo Line entrance directly from Praed St is still open but I presume that it probably is?  BTW I believe there is a new deep level pedestrian tunnel linking the Liz Line circulating area with the Bakerloo line and LUL now shows step free access  from the street to the Bakerloo Line via the Liz Line entrance.  

 

On Monday I couldn't see any sign of any new, more direct, access (from the Liz Line) to the Circle/District Line platforms but there might something as there has long been considerable passenger interchange between the main/(ex) suburban platforms and the Circle/District Line, especially for Inner Rail trains (and off Outer Rail trains).   I think Crossrail will do little or nothing to alter that traffic pattern although the pandemic might well have reduced its volume.

[RJS1977]

Yes, I agree that the 'other steps' were a useful entrance that now appears to be permanently shut. They were particularly useful if changing from the H&C to the Bakerloo. 

 

The Praed Street entrance also seems to have disappeared - I think swallowed up in the building work that's going on.

 

These two closures seem to have had the effect of making the remaining passageway a lot busier than I remember it being.

[DY444]

51 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

'The other steps' to the Bakerloo Line ticket hall looked (on Monday this week) to be rather permanently closed.  I wonder if a big reason for closing this - extremely useful - access could be linked to a poster in the main booking hall/barrier area which says that access to the Bakerloo Line will be closed for safety reasons at busy times to prevent overcrowding.    I don't know if the Bakerloo Line entrance directly from Praed St is still open but I presume that it probably is?  BTW I believe there is a new deep level pedestrian tunnel linking the Liz Line circulating area with the Bakerloo line and LUL now shows step free access  from the street to the Bakerloo Line via the Liz Line entrance.  

 

On Monday I couldn't see any sign of any new, more direct, access (from the Liz Line) to the Circle/District Line platforms but there might something as there has long been considerable passenger interchange between the main/(ex) suburban platforms and the Circle/District Line, especially for Inner Rail trains (and off Outer Rail trains).   I think Crossrail will do little or nothing to alter that traffic pattern although the pandemic might well have reduced its volume.

 

Paddington Liz line station has 2 levels below street/main line station level.  The 1st level down is where the ticket gates are and the 2nd level down is the platform level.  The new Bakerloo Line access is a flight of escalators which goes down from the 2nd (platform) level.

 

Edit.  There will of course be lifts too but I didn't see those so don't know if they go from the 1st level via the 2nd level to wherever the Bakerloo escalators go, or if there are separate ones for 1st to 2nd and 2nd to the Bakerloo. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by DY444

[KeithMacdonald]

Is it me? I can't see any mention of the Liz lIne on the Paddington map.

 

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/London-Paddington-Station-Map.pdf

 

Or maybe Network Rail is slow with the updates?

[DY444]

1 minute ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Is it me? I can't see any mention of the Liz lIne on the Paddington map.

 

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/London-Paddington-Station-Map.pdf

 

Or maybe Network Rail is slow with the updates?

 

It hasn't been updated yet

[KingEdwardII]

2 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Or maybe Network Rail is slow with the updates?

This page has an update which deals with the Elizabeth line:

 

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations-and-destinations/stations-made-easy/london-paddington-station-plan

 

...although it isn't the clearest map I ever saw!

 

It does show the escalators and the lifts, including the connection to the Bakerloo. 

 

Yours,  Mike.

[ess1uk]

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Yes, I agree that the 'other steps' were a useful entrance that now appears to be permanently shut. They were particularly useful if changing from the H&C to the Bakerloo. 

 

The Praed Street entrance also seems to have disappeared - I think swallowed up in the building work that's going on.

 

These two closures seem to have had the effect of making the remaining passageway a lot busier than I remember it being.

This building?

https://paddingtonsquare.co.uk

[melmerby]

Is it me or do those diagrams seem somewhat confusing?

Bits of this and that detached from the main diagram don't help.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, melmerby said:

Is it me or do those diagrams seem somewhat confusing?

Bits of this and that detached from the main diagram don't help.

And even worse because of the way the whole pedestrian layout has changed  in the station.  Access to the H&S platforms - impressive that the 'booking hall' area is - has become awful from any part of the main station and now involves going out doors instead of the previous covered access.  And that route is also part of the pedestrian access to the taxi pick-up/set down point.

 

What was previously easy level access either to or from taxis has been replaced by the need to go up to/get down from the High Level (as was) with very limited lift access availability for those with heavy luggage - who are the very  people most likely to use a taxi.  In our experience it isn't unusual to have to queue for the lifts and it definitely takes much longer to/from train side especially for the low numbered platforms.  Part of that resiting is of course down to Crossrail taking over the former departure side carriage drive adjacent to the old main booking office and platform 1.

 

Access to/from Platform 14 is better than it used to be apart from the major expedition now needed to get from it to the H&S or vice versa.  Access to the Bakerloo Line is now much worse than it once was from the high numbered platforms and from the H&S.   But at least nothing too much has been done to ruin access to the Circle/District especially if you ignore the currently signed route to get to the Inner Rail platform and use the old route - which still exists.

 

Ans one trick that seems to have been missed would be to re-open the subway from Platform 1 giving access to most of the main line side platforms.  It's close ot the LizLine entrance and a good way to avoid the crowds on the Lawn although it does mean that people would be steered away from the 'retail experience' but they could perhaps then save money as well as time getting to their train?

Edited May 26, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Ron Ron Ron]

Day 2 

Geoff Marshall explores Paddington low level.

He walks the new link between the Elizabeth Line and Bakerloo platforms, which also provide a step free route.

It takes 2.5 to 3 mins to get from one to the other.

 

 

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Ans one trick that seems to have been missed would be to re-open the subway from Platform 1 giving access to most of the main line side platforms.  It's close ot the LizLine entrance and a good way to avoid the crowds on the Lawn although it does mean that people would be steered away from the 'retail experience' but they could perhaps then save money as well as time getting to their train?

 

Thing is, if that subway is as direct as you say then it could become significantly overcrowded in the peaks. IIRC there is at least one tube station which has a 'go the long way round' to try and overcome dangerous overcrowding in passageways and upon a recent visit to London Bridge during the Bank branch closure access into the tube station was deliberately made more awkward by closing an entrance so as to avoid overcrowding during peak times.

 

Similarly many a commuter bemoaned the loss of the subways at the city end of the high level platforms saying the new route made their interchange with the underground longer - but quite frankly they were a death trap in the old London Bridge in the peaks due to overcrowding so they got removed from public use (I think some still exist for emergency evacuation purposes).

 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by phil-b259

[KingEdwardII]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

explores Paddington low level

Unfortunately, the video does not deal with the route and timing for the interchange between Elizabeth line trains arriving/departing from the main line platforms and the trains on the subterranean Elizabeth line platforms, which is the what I really want to know about.

 

I've picked up that the interchange at Liverpool Street involves:

 

- ideally be in the Eastern end (front) of the Elizabeth line train from Paddington

- leave the Elizabeth line station from the eastern entrance ("Broadgate")

- go into Liverpool Street mainline station and head direct for the high numbered platforms (right hand side as you enter the building from the front)

- timing unclear at the moment...

 

You need to check out/check in at both Paddington & Liverpool Street, but if using Oyster or Contactless Card, then you will get the benefit of the maximum charge for the day in any case.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Grovenor]

23 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

- ideally be in the Eastern end (front) of the Elizabeth line train from Paddington

- leave the Elizabeth line station from the eastern entrance ("Broadgate")

- go into Liverpool Street mainline station and head direct for the high numbered platforms (right hand side as you enter the building from the front)

- timing unclear at the moment...

The Eastern entrance (or really exit in this case) splits into two, Broadgate and Liverpool St. You need to ignore the former and follow the latter.

[The Lurker]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

Similarly many a commuter bemoaned the loss of the subways at the city end of the high level platforms saying the new route made their interchange with the underground longer - but quite frankly they were a death trap in the old London Bridge in the peaks due to overcrowding so they got removed from public use (I think some still exist for emergency evacuation purposes).

 

 

In the remodelled LBG station, the utility of those ramps would have also been diminished by the demolition of the overbridge across Tooley Street and down into the Cottons Centre.

 

I suspect that most users now barely remember the old routes and have become used to the new one - albeit my job moved from the Cottons Centre to the other side of the station so I don't have to join the throngs crossing Tooley Street from the new entrance so don't know whether that is noticeably worse. I suspect that changing platforms from say a Thameslink to a CHX of CST service is more time consuming than the old footbridge.

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Unfortunately, the video does not deal with the route and timing for the interchange between Elizabeth line trains arriving/departing from the main line platforms and the trains on the subterranean Elizabeth line platforms, which is the what I really want to know about. …….

Geoff briefly mentions it at the beginning of the video.

He says that you simply walk from the main line platforms, across the concourse and through the exit to the Elizabeth line low level station.

He says it takes about 2 minutes.

 

It’s of no great consequence, as this is a short term situation.

EL trains to/from the great western main line will be running directly into the central section tunnels in about 6 months time.

Initially to/from Abbey Wood, so same platform changes can be made for the Shenfield branch, at any of the central section stations, until the full service commences next spring.

 

 

.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[KingEdwardII]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

It’s of no great consequence, as this is a short term situation

It is of consequence to me, since I will be doing this journey a week Saturday!  I realize that the eventual configuration will be far simpler, but that ain't going to be my experience next week...

 

Yours, Mike.

[Chris116]

I had an afternoon out yesterday to ride on the Elizabeth Line and the Battersea Power Station branch of the Northern Line. I was impressed by the trains on the Elizabeth Line which have much more comfortable seats than most modern trains. I think it is a pity that Abbey Wood only has two EL platforms as incoming trains were all being held outside for a platform to become available. A three platform station would have made far more sense especially if they ever want to increase the service frequency.

 

Looking down the length of the train inside.

 

Looking down the outside of the train at Abbey Wood.

 

Sadly the maps in the trains are only the size of the adverts which means the writing is very small and the zone information is in grey and totally unreadable.

[m0rris]

 

20 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ans one trick that seems to have been missed would be to re-open the subway from Platform 1 giving access to most of the main line side platforms.  It's close ot the LizLine entrance and a good way to avoid the crowds on the Lawn although it does mean that people would be steered away from the 'retail experience' but they could perhaps then save money as well as time getting to their train?

 

Unfortunately the Subways are probably a bridge too far to put back into use. There's two key factors at play, firstly the Heathrow Express rebuilding work remodelled the middle of the station when they installed the airport check-in conveyors for plts. 6/7 and secondly the areas that have been left comparatively untouched have been used for utilities and it would be a lot of work to re-route everything away from the original subways. On the flipside, the old mail conveyor looked in surprisingly good nick last time I went down there!

[EddieB]

3 hours ago, Chris116 said:

I had an afternoon out yesterday to ride on the Elizabeth Line and the Battersea Power Station branch of the Northern Line. I was impressed by the trains on the Elizabeth Line which have much more comfortable seats than most modern trains.

Oddly enough, the trains running through the recently opened section of the Elizabeth Line have similar configurations and levels of comfort to those introduced on suburban services out of Liverpool Street and Paddington around five years ago!

[Chris116]

3 hours ago, EddieB said:

Oddly enough, the trains running through the recently opened section of the Elizabeth Line have similar configurations and levels of comfort to those introduced on suburban services out of Liverpool Street and Paddington around five years ago!

I knew that the outer sections that were TfL Rail until the centre section opened used the same trains as the central section but until yesterday had not been on them. I just wish the South Western Railway stock was as comfortable but at least SWR is better than the Thameslink cattle trucks.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Chris116

[KingEdwardII]

28 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

Thameslink cattle trucks.

Moo!

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Geoff briefly mentions it at the beginning of the video.

He says that you simply walk from the main line platforms, across the concourse and through the exit to the Elizabeth line low level station.

He says it takes about 2 minutes.

 

It’s of no great consequence, as this is a short term situation.

EL trains to/from the great western main line will be running directly into the central section tunnels in about 6 months time.

Initially to/from Abbey Wood, so same platform changes can be made for the Shenfield branch, at any of the central section stations, until the full service commences next spring.

 

 

.

And once the whole thing is up & running I - like I suspect many others who've sussed things out- will change from a semi-fast GWR 387 to a Liz Line 345 at Ealing Broadway (and vice versa).  Obviously that won't be possible for passengers on GWR long distance trains  and fast commuter trains from/to  the Thames who would change to  the Liz Line at Paddington and if that only takes 3-4 minutes it will be a good interchange time.

 

2 hours ago, EddieB said:

Oddly enough, the trains running through the recently opened section of the Elizabeth Line have similar configurations and levels of comfort to those introduced on suburban services out of Liverpool Street and Paddington around five years ago!

They're nothing at all like the Electrostar 387s running out of Paddington apart from the fact that they are bogie vehicles running  on the same gauge track drawing power from 25kv overhead.   The noticeable thing about the 345s further out on the GWML is that passengers avoid the longitudinal seats if they can and, from experience, I don't think the ride at speed is as good as that on the 387s.  

 

The general level of onboard passenger facilities is completely different as the 345s are basically an UndergrounD train while the 387s are properly equipped for the longer journeys with only one shortcoming - the hard seat 'cushions' (which I, if no one else, have got used to).

[3rd Rail Exile]

14 hours ago, EddieB said:

Oddly enough, the trains running through the recently opened section of the Elizabeth Line have similar configurations and levels of comfort to those introduced on suburban services out of Liverpool Street and Paddington around five years ago!

 

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And once the whole thing is up & running I - like I suspect many others who've sussed things out- will change from a semi-fast GWR 387 to a Liz Line 345 at Ealing Broadway (and vice versa).  Obviously that won't be possible for passengers on GWR long distance trains  and fast commuter trains from/to  the Thames who would change to  the Liz Line at Paddington and if that only takes 3-4 minutes it will be a good interchange time.

 

They're nothing at all like the Electrostar 387s running out of Paddington apart from the fact that they are bogie vehicles running  on the same gauge track drawing power from 25kv overhead.   The noticeable thing about the 345s further out on the GWML is that passengers avoid the longitudinal seats if they can and, from experience, I don't think the ride at speed is as good as that on the 387s.  

 

The general level of onboard passenger facilities is completely different as the 345s are basically an UndergrounD train while the 387s are properly equipped for the longer journeys with only one shortcoming - the hard seat 'cushions' (which I, if no one else, have got used to).

 

I might be wrong (and apologies if so), but I think @EddieB had his tongue in his cheek slightly and was referring to the "all stations" Reading and Shenfield services which acquired 345s on their transfer to TfL Rail in preparation for Crossrail.  

 

I agree that they're nothing like the Electrostar 387s in terms of comfort or facilities (particularly the lack of facilities!). 

 

And yes, the Ealing Broadway change had occurred to me as well - I often catch the semi-fast 387 from Didcot into London as there's never any problem with seat availability, unlike some of the fast services...   But until full opening occurs, the hike to the Elizabeth Line from a terminating semi-fast arriving on Platform 14 at Paddington means the H&C/Circle is still a viable option to Faringdon and Liverpool Street.