Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[DY444]

On 22/05/2022 at 14:43, Platform 1 said:

Tfl giveth with one hand... and taketh away with the other (albeit temporarily)...

 

Planned track closures (as at 19 May 2022)

 

And again the TfL Journey Planner doesn't seem to know about this (yet).  It suggests the fastest route from Farringdon to Paddington on 11 June is the Cross/Liz/Purp line.  Travellers will need to be wary because the H&C is also shown as closed that weekend.

 

Mind you, I don't envy the team that writes the software to handle all these exceptions...

 

It's closed every Sunday over the summer to allow them to test and iron out the last issues with the running to/from the GWML and GEML.  However it's open on the Jubilee weekend Sunday and my wild guess is that Saturday 11th closure is to give them back the testing day they lost on that Jubilee weekend Sunday.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, ess1uk said:

there have been queues in the rain for the first train 

Start as you mean to go on.

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Start as you mean to go on.

What with fire engines and an emergency evacuation at Paddington?

 

Luckily a false alarm, but the evacuation protocols worked.

[Michael Hodgson]

37 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

What with fire engines and an emergency evacuation at Paddington?

 

Good job the Queen didn't open it on opening day then 😁

[Ron Ron Ron]

Another sad indictment of the nature of British press journalism.

Some news outlets (media, newspapers etc) are leading the story with “Late” and “Over budget” being given pre-eminence over the successful delivery of a hugely complex and challenging project.

 

 

.

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Another sad indictment of the nature of British press journalism.

Some news outlets (media, newspapers etc) are leading the story with “Late” and “Over budget” being given pre-eminence over the successful delivery of a hugely complex and challenging project.

 

 

.

But it is both, if they went with the opposite then they would be as bad a governments for hiding the truth about major civil engineering that don't go completely to plan.

 

HS2 is another example of this or the 'new' money for railways that is old money dressed up in new clothes.

 

Yes it is great that Crossrail is open, it is a brilliant piece of engineering and we should be proud, but lets not kid ourselves that it was a shining example of good project management and delivery from the beginning.  In time it will be forgotten about, ditto with HS2 when it's finally running but right now the cost and delivery over runs are front and centre.

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

………but lets not kid ourselves that it was a shining example of good project management and delivery from the beginning……

You’re right. It certainly wasn’t until two and a half years ago, when the project management team were completely replaced with a more competent, experienced senior management and new project management team.

 

A large part of the blame also goes on the inappropriate timescales and setting of  “target dates”, with associated budgets.

No project of this type, which is mostly underground, in a complex subterranean environment, could be completed in that way.

The experts brought in from other similar projects around the world, as part of the project recovery, told them so when they took over.

Hence the more pragmatic, focussed and realistic approach from that point on, until today.

 

It’s also forgotten that the original budget was slashed by a couple of billion, before being approved and being given the go ahead.

Needless to say, it overran on an impossible budget, with insufficient headroom.

The final figure will exceed the original estimate ( the one that was cut back from), but over 10 to 14 years and working with a large degree of inherent uncertainty and unknowns, is anybody really surprised?

That’s without factoring in Covid, which added more delay and cost increases.

 

If Crossrail had overrun by 50% or ended up costing double the original budget, then ‘d be more concerned.

 

As you say, in a few years time, all this will be forgotten.

 

 

.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Live track indicator…..

 

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/xrcos#T_PADTLL

 

 

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[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Live track indicator…..

 

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/xrcos#T_PADTLL

 

 

.

I notice they are using a different method of indication of line clear in front of train.

Railcam's diagram (which has been up for a couple of weeks now) has the more traditional red/green aspects showing as if using traditional colour lights.

 

Interesting to see the regular 5 mins interval between trains showing nicely where at any one time there are trains at every other station.

[Ron Ron Ron]

All driven on autopilot as well.

[Pete the Elaner]

6 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

It’s also forgotten that the original budget was slashed by a couple of billion, before being approved and being given the go ahead.

Needless to say, it overran on an impossible budget, with insufficient headroom.

The final figure will exceed the original estimate ( the one that was cut back from), but over 10 to 14 years and working with a large degree of inherent uncertainty and unknowns, is anybody really surprised?

 

 

That is usually how outsourcing & contracts (fail to) work:

A project gets tendered to 3 contractors. Their engineers work out it will cost about £100m, so they bump this to £150m because they know that management will underquote to get the work.

Management do indeed cut it .. by half to make sure they get the contract..£75m. They win the contract because they are the cheapest.

Engineers fall out with management because £75m is just not possible.

Project owners give themselves a nice bonus because they have got a good deal & publicise that the project will cost £75m.

The work starts.

The contractors run out of money & state that they need a further £25m or else they will go bust. If this happens, the project will be unfinished so another company is invited to tender. They quote £75m to finish off what the others have started.

The original contractors are given £25m extra. The project is now said have overrun & be over budget.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I notice they are using a different method of indication of line clear in front of train.

Railcam's diagram (which has been up for a couple of weeks now) has the more traditional red/green aspects showing as if using traditional colour lights.

 

Interesting to see the regular 5 mins interval between trains showing nicely where at any one time there are trains at every other station.

No different from what Open Train Times  were already using for the area around the junction at Westbourne Park and have long been using for CTRL (aka HS1), i.e. a representation of a repere/section marker board.- 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

No different from what Open Train Times  were already using for the area around the junction at Westbourne Park and have long been using for CTRL (aka HS1), i.e. a representation of a repere/section marker board.- 

Just had another look at the HS1 line and those markers still dont change, they do on the Elizabeth Line diagram.

 

Neither Open Train Times or Railcam seem to have a live signalling feed from HS1

[ess1uk]

11 hours ago, woodenhead said:

What with fire engines and an emergency evacuation at Paddington?

 

Luckily a false alarm, but the evacuation protocols worked.

captured here

[KeithMacdonald]

Happy excited people on a new purple train!

 

 

[Northmoor]

12 hours ago, woodenhead said:

What with fire engines and an emergency evacuation at Paddington?

 

Luckily a false alarm, but the evacuation protocols worked.

The media, apart from mentioning the delay and over-spend (which is as you say, probably fair enough) didn't seem to have gone overboard on mentioning the fire evacuation.  Once upon a time - certainly in British Rail days - certain Fleet Street journalists might well have instigated just such an incident to create the headlines they'd already planned on writing.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Northmoor
words shuffled

[St. Simon]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

I notice they are using a different method of indication of line clear in front of train.

Railcam's diagram (which has been up for a couple of weeks now) has the more traditional red/green aspects showing as if using traditional colour lights.

 

Interesting to see the regular 5 mins interval between trains showing nicely where at any one time there are trains at every other station.

 

Hi,

 

I also noticed that they also have track occupation indications as well, first time I've seen that on OTT!

 

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

All driven on autopilot as well.

 

Yes, supervised ATO at GoA 2 (or possibly GoA 1, not sure actually!), fantastic technology. (I'm sure you guys know that, but thought I'd just clarify in case people think it is driverless!)

 

Simon

Edited May 24, 2022 by St. Simon

[Mike Storey]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

That is usually how outsourcing & contracts (fail to) work:

A project gets tendered to 3 contractors. Their engineers work out it will cost about £100m, so they bump this to £150m because they know that management will underquote to get the work.

Management do indeed cut it .. by half to make sure they get the contract..£75m. They win the contract because they are the cheapest.

Engineers fall out with management because £75m is just not possible.

Project owners give themselves a nice bonus because they have got a good deal & publicise that the project will cost £75m.

The work starts.

The contractors run out of money & state that they need a further £25m or else they will go bust. If this happens, the project will be unfinished so another company is invited to tender. They quote £75m to finish off what the others have started.

The original contractors are given £25m extra. The project is now said have overrun & be over budget.

 

Nice pitch, but about 25 years out of date. Most major contracts are now shared risk and opportunity, with a target cost, not a fixed price. The Sponsor's project budget is sense checked by a third party before it gets anywhere near tendering, which quickly helps to show if a contractor is bidding too low. Contingency values are agreed between the parties, around a range determined by the agreed target cost, with proportions allocated. The remaining contingency is held by the Sponsor (or customer).

 

Almost all contract "failures" in terms of cost, in recent times, have been due to major variations either by the sponsor, post-award (e.g. GWEP), or by things going significantly wrong, such as interfaces with third parties (including other contracts on the same project), signalling compatibility, geological/utilities complications and so on (for which also e.g. GWEP but also Crossrail). The project is responsible in all such cases.

 

I do accept that under-bidding still goes on however, but is rare now, compared to what it used to be like when I first started in rail projects about 30 years ago.

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

Interesting to see the regular 5 mins interval between trains showing nicely where at any one time there are trains at every other station.

So are they using Time Interval working?

[EddieB]

22 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Yes it is great that Crossrail is open, it is a brilliant piece of engineering and we should be proud, but lets not kid ourselves that it was a shining example of good project management and delivery from the beginning.  In time it will be forgotten about, ditto with HS2 when it's finally running but right now the cost and delivery over runs are front and centre.

Many similarities with the Jubilee Line extension, in terms of construction, overrun and overspend - despite extensive studies and academic papers.  As in other walks of life, lessons from history are sacrificed on the altar of expediency...

[KingEdwardII]

Anyone got experience of the changeover between Elizabeth line trains at Paddington and at Liverpool Street? How long it takes, how complex the route, etc...

[Chris116]

In case anyone thinks it is a British problem to have projects like Crossrail arrive late and over budget can I suggest you study the Brenner Pass base tunnel which was originally due to open in 2015 but that rapidly changed to 2022 and is now expected to open in 2032. Compared to that Crossrail is almost on time!

[EddieB]

47 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

Anyone got experience of the changeover between Elizabeth line trains at Paddington and at Liverpool Street? How long it takes, how complex the route, etc...

At Paddington there are two flights of escalators (or lifts showing 4 levels), leading to the site of the former parcels depot - i.e. opposite side of the concourse to the platforms for continuation of the Elizabeth Line westwards.  Not difficult, and it depends where you're going - best to allow five minutes for connections.  Alternatively the footbridge can be used to access the other platforms.

 

I don't know about interchange with the Underground Lines not using the H&C/Circle through platforms.

 

[Edit]

At Woolwich, the surface connection to Woolwich Arsenal (DLR terminus + National Rail) is quite straightforward, 5-10 minutes walk (a couple of roads to cross).  It might be worth noting that the escalators/lifts are at the Paddington end of the platforms - a fair distance if you're at the Abbey Wood end of a nine-carriage train.

 

At Abbey Wood there are multiple pedestrian bridges between the National Rail and Elizabeth Line platforms - stairs, escalators and lifts.

 

[/Edit]

Edited May 25, 2022 by EddieB
Adding other interchanges.

[RJS1977]

Interchange from the Circle/District/Bakerloo shouldn't be too bad - come up the steps on to the Lawn and turn left to get outside and the EL station is in front of you. Though note that the other set of steps up from the Bakerloo Line ticket hall that came out near the high numbered platforms appears to have been blocked off (possibly due to Covid).

 

Alternatively if changing from the Circle/District, you can exit Praed Street station, cross the road and go up the left hand side of the hotel to reach the EL. 

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, Chris116 said:

In case anyone thinks it is a British problem to have projects like Crossrail arrive late and over budget can I suggest you study the Brenner Pass base tunnel which was originally due to open in 2015 but that rapidly changed to 2022 and is now expected to open in 2032. Compared to that Crossrail is almost on time!

And the cost has gone from €2.806bn (2007 prices) to €8.384bn (current estimate on completion).