Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[KingEdwardII]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

we headed to a particular nearby pub

Unfortunately, our rural location would have meant a rather soggy walk to the nearest pub - and our on-site clubhouse bar was closed at the time of the alarm. Else we too would have done the headcount in the bar!

[Michael Hodgson]

9 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Couldn't do that today!  

Couldn't always do it back then, because the landlord was required to call "Time Gentleman Please"  at certain times of the day.

 

We had to evacuate an office in the City because of a bomb scare, and we were supposed to asemble in the square outside.  Trouble was, we found that several other offices did the same and all wanted to have their count in the same place !

[Ron Ron Ron]

Back to progress reports on the Lizzie.

 

In today’s evidence given at the regular London Assembly, transport committee meeting, TfL Commissioner, Andy Byford, gave a progress report and was subjected to some searching questions.

 

Summary.

Trial Operations are almost complete.

The last mass evacuation exercise took place this last weekend.

Of course there’s a lot more to this process than evacuation exercises, with most of the other stuff done before Xmas and during the week days since New Year.

Andy Byford says that the railway should be technically ready, within a few weeks time.

The next phase will be to continue an operational timetable service, for final assurance on reliability.

He again emphasised that they will not open to the public until they are fully confident that the railway is robust and reliable.

 

Apart from some relatively minor issues that are being cleared up and some minor software updates, the railway systems are virtually safe and ready.

The main remaining issues relate to the train systems.

Most notably, reliability issues when trains transit from the eastern, NR Shenfield branch, into the central core section, at Stratford.

The issue has been nailed down to external random electromagnetic interference, which causes occasional emergency braking to be applied on some trains. 
This isn’t a safety issue, but an unacceptable operational issue.
Mr Byford says that the team have now fully identified the cause and work is in hand with the train manufacturer and NR, to resolve the problem.

As such, no firm date has been given, however, there was an interesting politically oriented question about the possibility of opening, before the “cut off” prior to the London local elections in May.

(n.b. the cut off refers to the official campaigning period.)

After that cut off date, Mayor Khan can’t take the limelight at a grand opening, until after the elections have taken place.

Andy Byford, was very diplomatic in saying the team recognised the political aspects of the opening, but would not be prepared to “rush” the opening date under any circumstances, even if it was technically possible to do so.

 

There was further questioning about the following opening phases, as the western and eastern arms are gradually connected into the line.

Andy Byford said that trains from Shenfield, should be running through to Paddington, before (and at the latest), by the December 2022  timetable change. Similarly trains from the western arm will be running into the central section by the end of the year.

 The full service, with trains running through the tunnels and out onto the NR system on the other side (NR - Crossrail - NR) is likely to be complete by May 2023.

This is a shorter phasing than that in the original plan.

 

 

.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Northmoor]

27 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Back to progress reports on the Lizzie.

 

In today’s evidence given at the regular London Assembly, transport committee meeting, TfL Commissioner, Andy Byford, gave a progress report and was subjected to some searching questions.

 

Summary.

Trial Operations are almost complete.

The last mass evacuation exercise took place this last weekend.

Of course there’s a lot more to this process than evacuation exercises, with most of the other stuff done before Xmas and during the week days since New Year.

Andy Byford says that the railway should be technically ready, within a few weeks time.

The next phase will be to continue an operational timetable service, for final assurance on reliability.

He again emphasised that they will not open to the public until they are fully confident that the railway is robust and reliable.

 

Apart from some relatively minor issues that are being cleared up and some minor software updates, the railway systems are virtually safe and ready.

The main remaining issues relate to the train systems.

Most notably, reliability issues when trains transit from the eastern, NR Sheffield branch, into the central core section, at Stratford.

The issue has been nailed down to external random electromagnetic interference, which causes occasional emergency braking to be applied on some trains. 
This isn’t a safety issue, but an unacceptable operational issue.
Mr Byford says that the team have now fully identified the cause and work is in hand with the train manufacturer and NR, to resolve the problem.

As such, no firm date has been given, however, there was an interesting politically oriented question about the possibility of opening, before the “cut off” prior to the London local elections in May.

(n.b. the cut off refers to the official campaigning period.)

After that cut off date, Mayor Khan can’t take the limelight at a grand opening, until after the elections have taken place.

Andy Byford, was very diplomatic in saying the team recognised the political aspects of the opening, but would not be prepared to “rush” the opening date under any circumstances, even if it was technically possible to do so.

 

There was further questioning about the following opening phases, as the western and eastern arms are gradually connected into the line.

Andy Byford said that trains from Sheffield, should be running through to Paddington, before (and at the latest), by the December 2022  timetable change. Similarly trains from the western arm will be running into the central section by the end of the year.

 The full service, with trains running through the tunnels and out onto the NR system on the other side (NR - Crossrail - NR) is likely to be complete by May 2023.

This is a shorter phasing than that in the original plan..

I'm sure you knew it's Shenfield, not Sheffield........

 

Good on Andy Byford for not being swayed by the politicians.  Andy may run TfL on behalf of the Mayor, but he doesn't have to run TfL to suit the Mayor.

[Ron Ron Ron]

12 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I'm sure you knew it's Shenfield, not Sheffield........

Thanks.

Bl##dy Spillchucker !

 

13 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

……Good on Andy Byford for not being swayed by the politicians.  Andy may run TfL on behalf of the Mayor, but he doesn't have to run TfL to suit the Mayor.

He very cleverly and astutely made the veiled inference that if they forced him to open earlier than he wished, then any fault for it going wrong would be totally on the politicians heads. It’s on the record as well.

 

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

I do wonder about the opening date beyond Paddington onto the GWML in view of what I was told very recently about the situation with ETCS etc on both the GWML and the Heathrow branch (although the latter seems to more likely be finger trouble from what I've been told).  If it was me I would be very wary at even hinting at a date for through running while technical issues remain unresolved.

[Ron Ron Ron]

16 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I do wonder about the opening date beyond Paddington onto the GWML in view of what I was told very recently about the situation with ETCS etc on both the GWML and the Heathrow branch (although the latter seems to more likely be finger trouble from what I've been told).  If it was me I would be very wary at even hinting at a date for through running while technical issues remain unresolved.

The Crossrail trains are already running all day, each and every day on the GWML and Heathrow Branch.

Weren’t those issues ironed out before the Class 345’s took over from the Class 360’s more than a year ago?

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

19 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I do wonder about the opening date beyond Paddington onto the GWML in view of what I was told very recently about the situation with ETCS etc on both the GWML and the Heathrow branch (although the latter seems to more likely be finger trouble from what I've been told).  If it was me I would be very wary at even hinting at a date for through running while technical issues remain unresolved.

The Crossrail trains are already running all day, each and every day on the GWML and Heathrow Branch.

Weren’t those issues ironed out before the Class 345’s took over from the Class 360’s more than a year ago?

 

 

.

[Grovenor]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The Crossrail trains are already running all day, each and every day on the GWML and Heathrow Branch.

Weren’t those issues ironed out before the Class 345’s took over from the Class 360’s more than a year ago?

But not running over the interface between the CBTC in the tunnel and the GWML signalling, so there may well still be some interface/changeover issues to resolve. Similar issue at Stratford which is apparently now understood and fix in progress. Hence the initial service being in 3 bits, one on each type of signalling. Two of them having been running for some time of course.

[KingEdwardII]

This may have been discussed a lot previously, but is Abbey Wood actually a good terminus for the Elizabeth line in the South East of London? Given that Canary Wharf is on this leg of the line, there surely has to be a lot of demand to use this route for commuters to get to/from both Canary Wharf and the City. Currently, Abbey Wood has a fairly limited service out to places like Dartford, Gravesend and the Medway towns. How is this meant to work once the Elizabeth line is open?

 

I have seen that there have been consultations about extending the Elizabeth line eastwards in this area, but I have found information about this somewhat confusing. Any insight on this?

 

Yours, Mike.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

This may have been discussed a lot previously, but is Abbey Wood actually a good terminus for the Elizabeth line in the South East of London? Given that Canary Wharf is on this leg of the line, there surely has to be a lot of demand to use this route for commuters to get to/from both Canary Wharf and the City. Currently, Abbey Wood has a fairly limited service out to places like Dartford, Gravesend and the Medway towns. How is this meant to work once the Elizabeth line is open?

 

I have seen that there have been consultations about extending the Elizabeth line eastwards in this area, but I have found information about this somewhat confusing. Any insight on this?

 

Yours, Mike.

 

It should be remembered that Dartford itself is NOT within the GLA and as such has any monies spent there (or east thereof) will be of zero benefit to London taxpayers / residents - if the residents of north Kent want easier access to canary Wharf then that is going to be down to the DfT and the Westminster politicians to fund, not TfL / GLA / The London mayor to organise off its own bat.

 

And moving to the second part of your question - the main constraint on extending the Crossrail / Elizbeth line is the ability of the North Kent lines in the vicinity of Dartford to acept any more trains!

 

Previous studies have shown that the corridor from Erith through Dartford (including  a fair distance towards Gravesend) needs 4 tracking, plus grade separation of the flat junction need to be built with the Eltham , Sidcup and Slade Green depot lines if is to cope with anything more than a token extra train here and there.

 

(The route is currently  currently a mix of two and three tracks with flat junctions)

 

Thats before the need to equip the Elizabeth line with a large batch of dual voltage stock.

 

There are also serious concern of 'service pollution' where delays in Kent go and screw up the GWML and GEML - something any user of Thameslink will appreciate is a very real problem given the way disruption is passed between the BML, ECML and MML with that setup!

 

TfL are therefore of the mindset that any extension of Crossrail / Elizabeth line will require its own 25KV dedicated tracks from Abbey Wood at least as far as Dartford station - which is going to not only be expensive but will require a considerable quantity of land purchase and demolition to widen the railway footprint and complete separation from the access to Slade Green depot.

 

As I said earlier if Kent CC or the DfT are willing to fund the drawing up of a detailed proposal then TfL might carry out the necessary works as a contractor, but given the perilous state of their finances they are not going to spend any of their own cash on it.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by phil-b259

[Mike Storey]

3 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

This may have been discussed a lot previously, but is Abbey Wood actually a good terminus for the Elizabeth line in the South East of London? Given that Canary Wharf is on this leg of the line, there surely has to be a lot of demand to use this route for commuters to get to/from both Canary Wharf and the City. Currently, Abbey Wood has a fairly limited service out to places like Dartford, Gravesend and the Medway towns. How is this meant to work once the Elizabeth line is open?

 

I have seen that there have been consultations about extending the Elizabeth line eastwards in this area, but I have found information about this somewhat confusing. Any insight on this?

 

Yours, Mike.

 

Adding to, but slightly contradicting what Phil has said, the situation is as follows.

 

The demand flow you describe does not interfere with demand from Abbey Wood, as this would be contra-flow, to that demand from the City. In fact, interchange at Abbey Wood (for a fast service to Canary Wharf) would relieve Lewisham NR and DLR stations of significant demand, with which it could barely cope, pre-pandemic.

 

The original CrossRail plan was to extend through to Ebbesfleet, but this was cut to save costs, for reasons Phil has explained, as neither the Ebbesfleet Development Corporation nor the Hoo Peninsula development had made much progress in the last 10 years.

 

However, Bexley Council (for some reason) has successfully bid for about £5 million to explore up to 5 possibilities for improving connections between Abbey Wood and Ebbesfleet/Dartford/Gravesend. They have since pared this down to three, of which two involve major rail works. The third however, just involved some dedicated buses and an improved interchange between Ebbesfleet and Northfleet.

 

Since then (late 2021), Bexley, Gravesham and Dartford Councils along with Kent CC,  have signed a letter supporting a scheme to allow 8 Crossrail trains per hour to Northfleet, and four of those extended to Gravesend. Apparently, this involves "minimal" infrastructure works, but primarily the substitution of SE trains for Crossrail services, although there is a supposed net gain. The Mayor of London and TfL have supported this aspiration, but will not fund any part of it. Around 50% of funding is alleged to arrive from private developments in Bexley, Dartford, Ebbesfleet Garden City and from the proposed theme park near Swanscombe. These were generally known as Section 12 contributions, but have (since 2017) been replaced by national Housing Infrastructure Grants, for which local authorities have to bid, to central government, for permission and funding, to impose such conditions on "large scale" developments, to fund and receive matching (or similar) funding from third parties. To date, I am not aware of any such successful application (under this particular scheme), apart from TfL/GLA, which can implement its own arrangements anyway. A good example is Crossrail, but also Battersea, which mostly funded the Northern Line extension, but both of these pre-date the latest Act. Crossrail 2 has been deferred primarily due to the inability of TfL/GLA to raise sufficient finance through this route, whatever the over-cost of Crossrail 1. If they cannot achieve that, given the business and socio-economic case for Crossrail 2, then I would be hard pressed to suggest anyone who could.

 

All parties have accepted that the earliest any such improvements can be delivered is the mid-2030's, which probably means ........

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mike Storey

[Grovenor]

 

[Gordon Connell]

Opening date announced: Crossrail: Elizabeth line due to open on 24 May - BBC News

[KingEdwardII]

6 hours ago, Gordon Connell said:

Opening date announced

I think that this deserves national ringing of church bells and the cermonial dunking of the Mayor of London in the Thames!! Next I shall have to invent a pretext to travel on one of the shiny new trains right through central London...

 

Yours, Mike.

[Bernard Lamb]

I see that Grant Shapps is throwing his toys out of his pram over the announcement. 

Looking forward to my first trip as I have to go to Woolwich at the end of the month.

A saving of over 20 minutes each way for me.

Bernard

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I see that Grant Shapps is throwing his toys out of his pram over the announcement……..

 

It couldn’t be opened during the official electioneering period and was expected to be announced afterwards, so there are good grounds for complaint.

Crossrail raised the issue of the opening date and the local elections, back at a London Assembly transport committee hearing, a couple of months ago, putting the issue in the public domain and effectively warning off Mayor Khan from trying that political trick.

How the timing of the opening announcement will be viewed, will be interesting.

 

.

[Siberian Snooper]

Forget the politics, let's celebrate that it's opening, at least in part. Looking forward to the announcement that, all parts opening, without the need to change at Liverpool Street or Paddington.

 

 

[Grovenor]

I see no ground for complaint, when the date was agreed then it should be announced. Any benefit a politician might get for opening it is balanced by the blame for it being so late. Shapps would have announced it himself if he thought there was any benefit to be had.

Its a non issue.

[Bernard Lamb]

26 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

It couldn’t be opened during the official electioneering period and was expected to be announced afterwards, so there are good grounds for complaint.

Crossrail raised the issue of the opening date and the local elections, back at a London Assembly transport committee hearing, a couple of months ago, putting the issue in the public domain and effectively warning off Mayor Khan from trying that political trick.

How the timing of the opening announcement will be viewed, will be interesting.

 

.

That's a bit strong , not to say politically biased.

A bigger trick by Sadiq than that by Boris of appearing on GMB after a very long absence?

Tit for tat I would call it.

Hardly unexpected given the local media interest and the constant pressure to name the day.

Others would say that it just slipped out, nothing to do with what is happening on Thursday. 😀

Bernard

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

That's a bit strong , not to say politically biased.…….

Did you see the recording of that transport committee hearing Bernard?

By raising the issue of the forthcoming elections during questions about the timing of the opening date, Crossrail appeared to head off the possibility of any political interference being brought to bear on selecting a date.

It was a significant moment during that hearing.

It could have been very politically damaging for the mayor and his administration to fly in the face of the cross party agreement that it would not be electorally appropriate and that the decision should be based purely on operational and safety grounds.

That ensured the opening date would be post elections.

 

Moving forwards by a couple months to today….

Sneaking in this announcement, that could have easily been made this Friday, or next Monday, may have possibly breached the electoral “code” or whatever. 
Hence Shapps hopping about!

If so, there may or may not be a case to answer.

I don’t think the schoolboy “he did too sir” would wash as a defence though.

 

In any event it’s a sideshow.

As is the media frenzy over it being late and over budget.

It doesn’t matter one jot at the end of the day.

The key thing here is the final delivery of this amazingly ambitious project.

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Mike Storey]

23 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Did you see the recording of that transport committee hearing Bernard?

By raising the issue of the forthcoming elections during questions about the timing of the opening date, Crossrail appeared to head off the possibility of any political interference being brought to bear on selecting a date.

It was a significant moment during that hearing.

It could have been very politically damaging for the mayor and his administration to fly in the face of the cross party agreement that it would not be electorally appropriate and that the decision should be based purely on operational and safety grounds.

That ensured the opening date would be post elections.

 

Moving forwards by a couple months to today….

Sneaking in this announcement, that could have easily been made this Friday, or next Monday, may have possibly breached the electoral “code” or whatever. 
Hence Shapps hopping about!

If so, there may or may not be a case to answer.

I don’t think the schoolboy “he did too sir” would wash as a defence though.

 

In any event it’s a sideshow.

As is the media frenzy over it being late and over budget.

It doesn’t matter one jot at the end of the day.

The key thing here is the final delivery of this amazingly ambitious project.

 

 

Whilst we all applaud the announcement, I really cannot see what Shapps is on about. I too watched that committee hearing, and the primary issue of concern was as to whether Crossrail would be "bounced" into opening the line early, under political pressure, as opposed to completing all the tests they wanted to do before doing so, not about announcing when they would be opening. Shapps could have equally bathed in the good news, instead of turning it into another bunfight. 

 

Hey ho. We get the politicians we elect.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

The London Evening Standard have run a brief piece on the Crossrail control & signalling centre.

 

Crossrail: Inside the mission control for London’s new Elizabeth Line

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[Northmoor]

4 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The London Evening Standard have run a brief piece on the Crossrail control & signalling centre.

 

Crossrail: Inside the mission control for London’s new Elizabeth Line

It's been waiting a while; I visited just before commissioning, about four years ago.......  Impressive though, it's like Cape Canaveral in the main control room.