Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[mikemeg]

As far as I can ascertain, from photographs, the wash out plugs were of two different shapes. Those on the top of the firebox were of a 'flattened oval shape' similar to those shown on the model in the previous posting; those at the lower part of the firebox were circular with a raised circular rim. There also appears to have been one of these circular plugs on the corner of the firebox front, on each side.

 

I'm not certain whether or not the Q7's were built with the lower set of wash out plugs. On the B16/1's, the lower set of wash out plugs were an LNER addition and it may be that those on the Q7 were also an LNER addition, as the Q7 and B16/1 boilers were the same.

 

The photos below show these plugs and their locations though this shows the loco - 3463/63463 - in its late LNER and British Railways condition.

 

Also worth noting that the balance weights on the wheels on the driven axle were offset from 180 degrees, as they were on all 3 cylinder locos.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited September 5, 2017 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Those photos certainly dont look much like the etches in the model - certainly the lower sets. I'm not sure what I'll do about that. The photos from Mike are helpful in showing the rods leading to the sandbox, which, on the NER builds, seem "squarer" and are visible above thefootplate and through the gap below the boiler. On 63460 they seem round and are flush to the footplate upper side. Have I got that right?

 

Has anyone tackled the LRM J25? I have it in mind for my next project and have a nice photo of one passing Little benton Sidings, north of Newcastle, which is my "In progress/just started" layout

[RBAGE]

I think the lower covers seem to be different on the 2 locos. The later, BR photograph looks more like the models etched offering (bolt and tee bar) but deeper than the model. The LNER period loco looks to have fusible plugs. Also quite deep.

 

 

The same loco in each image. Is this related to a change of boiler or a general change in technology?

 

The etched parts for the upper covers look nothing like either of the photos attached. Although, it may be that what we can see is just a cover for the plug beneath.

 

The loco photograph are very useful and has be thinking about making modifications to my model.

 

John,

I have a London Road J25 that has been waiting to be built for many years. If this is your next project, it might encourage me to get my finger out.

One problem I've thought about for some time is that there doesn't seem to be much room for motor and gearbox. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by RBAGE

[RBAGE]

Is one a mud hole cover and the other a wash out plug?

[rowanj]

The issue/problem with the bottom, round, plugs will not be easy to resolve, as the boiler has what I considered to be very helpful etched ovals where they fit. So simply fitting a round plug will leave the rugby ball surround visible.  I'm not sure what the answer is, paricularly given that I've primed the boiler.

 

In the meantime, I've succumbed to another act of potential folly and purchased the LRM J25. The manufacturer confirms it has a ready-rolled boiler, which reduces my anxiety. I'm trusting a 1024 motor with High Level Compact+ will fit, Rob. ArthurK recommends it, I believe, for his J24.

Edited September 7, 2017 by rowanj

[mikemeg]

The issue/problem with the bottom, round, plugs will not be easy to resolve, as the boiler has what I considered to be very helpful etched ovals where they fit. So simply fitting a round plug will leave the rugby ball surround visible.  I'm not sure what the answer is, paricularly given that I've primed the boiler.

 

In the meantime, I've succombed to another act of potential folly and purchased the LRM J25. The manufacturer confirms it has a ready-rolled boiler, which reduces my anxiety. I'm trusting a 1024 motor with High Level Compact+ will fit, Rob. ArthurK recommends it, I believe, for his J24.

 

Assuming that the drive is to the rear axle and the motor is mounted vertically in the firebox, then you might be pushed to get a 1024 in. On Arthur's J24 I used a Mashima 1020 just to avoid any fouling of the terminals on the firebox top. The firebox on the J24 - and I imagine the J25 - is not large enough to allow the motor to be mounted diagonally.

 

If you gear the drive train up - say using a 60 : 1 ratio (used to be 54 : 1 but Chris Gibbon of High Level now uses a different final drive gearwheel with more teeth) - then there should be enough 'grunt', in that combination.

 

I've used the 1020 on one of the J72's (the Bachmann conversions) but with the High Level Humpshunter gearbox (108 : 1 ratio) and that will easily move thirty five wagons and it will move them exceedingly slowly!!

 

Key thing is to get a little weight into the loco; I weight them at six - seven ounces, which gives them good adhesion. Best place on the J24/25 is the boiler, under the dome, and more or less over the centre driving wheels.

 

Two of the few photos which I took of this build as this was not a test build. I bought this one at list price!!

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited September 7, 2017 by mikemeg

[RBAGE]

It'll take a lot of grease and a tiny shoe horn to get anything into that wasp wastes firebox.

 

I sit with bated breath.

[RBAGE]

Mike,

Is that the London Road J25?

 

It looks very lovely and is just the sort of encouragement I need to get started.

[mikemeg]

Mike,

Is that the London Road J25?

 

It looks very lovely and is just the sort of encouragement I need to get started.

 

No this is Arthur Kimber's J24 kit. Very similar to the J25 in size, profile, etc. The J25's outlasted the J24's by quite a few years; I believe the last J25 was withdrawn in 1962.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited September 7, 2017 by mikemeg

[ArthurK]

This was my solution for the J24. Mashima 1024 with Compact plus on the rear fixed axle. Front axles on beams of spring wire.

 

ArthurK

[ArthurK]

It'll take a lot of grease and a tiny shoe horn to get anything into that wasp wastes firebox.

 

I sit with bated breath.

Not really if it is an etched brass kit.

 

The North Eastern normally set their frames at 4' 1 1/2" apart (the J21 was an exception theirs were 4' 0"). Add to this the frame thickness of 2 times 1" then we have 4' 3 1/2". The firebox cladding was usually outside that. The total width available for the motor of a 4mm scale model is a little more than 17mm. More than enough to get a flat-can motor in there. If, as is normal, the motor forms an integral part of the chassis there is no problem inserting or removing the chassis provided that the motor is in a near vertical position.

 

In my kits there is normally a false frame to support the firebox cladding leaving 16mm for the motor access. This is enough for the flat-can motors normally used in 4mm models.

 

ArthurK

Edited September 7, 2017 by ArthurK

[Jol Wilkinson]

I always refer to the motor installation that Arthur used as "underslung" as the gears effectively go under the axle. I use simple single stage gears (a LRM motor mount and gears, but similar also available from Branchlines) for small wheel engines.

 

The attached shows a 1224 installed in LNWR Coal Tank chassis. The motor has to be low because of lack of headroom in the resin boiler casting, but the same approach works for LNWR Coal Engines and C Class 0-8-0s with etched boilers, which also have small wheels and short fireboxes. In those cases I shortened the tail shaft of the motor (as Arthur has on the J24), which allows me to rotate the motor to a more vertical position

 

 

[rowanj]

I've used Mitsumi motors, of the 5 for a fiver variety, in the past, coupled with Highlevel gearboxes. A couple were a bit under-powered, bu usually they work fine, though my locos dont do long mileage up stiff inclines. Having said that, though small, these motors are chunkier that a Masima 1024, so whether they will be an option for the J25 remains to be seen.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I've used Mitsumi motors, of the 5 for a fiver variety, in the past, coupled with Highlevel gearboxes. A couple were a bit under-powered, bu usually they work fine, though my locos dont do long mileage up stiff inclines. Having said that, though small, these motors are chunkier that a Masima 1024, so whether they will be an option for the J25 remains to be seen.

It rather depends on the gauge you are building. The Mashima 12xx cans will fit between OO frames, the 12XX and 14xx (usually) between EM and P4. That's for etched frames (not the old 1/16" brass strip variety) and with the flat sides vertical. The High Level motor mounts usually have the cans with the flat sides horizontal (as per Arthur's picture of the J24) so the 10 series motors then would need to be above the frames for  OO, but should be okay between EM or P4 frames.

 

I have a couple of the Matsumi 3 pole motors but haven't used them in anger yet as I have sufficient Mashimas for the kits I have yet to build.

[rowanj]

I tried to get a 1020 and 1024 from Scalelink and only 1 (not sure which as I'm away at the moment) is available, so the Mashima shortage seems to be biting. Has anyone used the Hanazono motors, which are open frame and appear on the Scalink website?

[Michael Edge]

Hanozono is almost identical to the much missed Mashima 10x24 open frame motor, only real difference is the large boss on the fixing end.

[rowanj]

I'm about ready to fit the rodding on the LH footplate and the reversing lever (?) on the RH. I also concluded that the casting for the lubricatord looks a bit puny, so they have been removed and will be replaced, at the same time siting them correctly futher back towards the smokebox.

 

I have also decided to try to do someting to fill the gap between the frames, which looks very blank. I'll fit the 2 crossbeams and make a stab at some motion, which will just be a representation. to do this, I'll need to remove the shaded part of the footplate casting, but the integrety should still be ok.

 

The NER cabside was assembled in 2 parts, riveted together just below the windows, so I'll have a go at that with Archer Rivet Tansfers. Thanks to Mikemeg for pointing that out on his excellent thread. Then it will be on  to the motion and brakegear.

 

John

[rowanj]

The primer reveals the usual areas requiring a bit more tidying - I seem to have disturbed the front lampiron, for a start, and I'm not convinced about the chimney. A B16/2=-3 from PDK is on the way, and I may see what is in the kit and replace with a brass one.

 

The boiler is a friction fit onto the footplate, though will be fastened by the nut under the smokebox when the chassis is completed, which is the next stage.... This should close the gap with the saddle, very visible once the primer was put on. 

 

The model is posed on what will be the southern headshunt of Little Benton Sidings, my under-construction layout. 'm 67, and a solo modeller, and it's at an early stage. But you never know..

 

As an aside, I have a SEF N5 to build, and was thinking of disposing of it, but found a couple of photos of 2 locos allocated in 1957/8 to Sunderland, so I'll hang on and give that a go at some point.

[rowanj]

The crosshead/ slidebar arrangement is simple enough for folk with 3 or more hands. The crosshead is a neat casting, which connects to the con rod via a brass pin cast on the crosshead. Inevitably, there is very little clearance between it and the coupling rod, so getting the pin flush is necessary. I tried to solder the parts together, but couldn't get a flush finish, so used pliers to distort the pin end to retain the con rod, a la rivet fixing. I hope it holds. but if not, I'll drill it out and replace with 8 or 10 BA nuts and bolts.

 

Getting the crosshead to run smoothly in the slidebars was also fiddly. After some cautious filing, I actually used a fine cutting disc in the Dremel, running at a very low speed to clean up the slots in the crosshead to deepen them sufficiently. The kit supplies a piece of tubing in which the crosshead rod runs, necessary because of the slope of the cylinders  The assembly runs well now, but the whole thing can't be soldered up until the lubricator crank is soldered to the crankpin to keep the con rod in place. So I'll assemble the other side, check for sticking points, then dismantle the chassis ready for brakes, other details, and painting. Hopefully it will go back together OK !

 

A picture shows the rivet transfer on the cab side, and the NER tender without water scoop. This seem to have been unique to the Q7's and, regrettably, otherwise superior builds to mine  have followed the kit instructions and fitted the second dome behind the rear coal plate.

[rowanj]

Just as I feared, but suspected. the rivited con rod worked loose. As I didnt suspect, thanks to my hamfistedness, I damaged the crosshead. I found a pair of Comet's in the spares box, and have begun the replacement. Easier said than done, as the grooves for the slide bar are too narrow and needed opening up. Even then, I needed to file the slide bar to get the crosshead to run smoothly. The rod is also much thicker than the one with the kit and won't fit the piece of tubing. As it happens, it all seems to work, but if I can track down a piece of tubing of the correct diameter, I'll probably fit it, just in case. 

 

While the chassis was partially stripped down, I fitted the first of what will be 2 crossbeams on the top, very visible on photos of the real thing but probably invisible on the model. the rest, along with some facsimile of the motion between the frames, will be attempted once the LH side con rod/crosshead is fitted.

 

I'm a bit surprised to have had this problem, but the fact that I seem to have put it right means that even moderate modellers like me should manage the kit, and more experienced folk will find it a doddle, but very rewarding.

Edited October 9, 2017 by rowanj

[Rob Pulham]

Looking good John,

 

I built the DJH Q7 on here a few years ago and it's on my hit list to build another in 7mm at some point. I had to modify the DJH cab because they hadn't taken account of the recessed cab front on their kit and thankfully someone pointed it out to me before I had gone too far.

 

Arthur was a great help with the detailing.

[rowanj]

Looking good John,

 

I built the DJH Q7 on here a few years ago and it's on my hit list to build another in 7mm at some point. I had to modify the DJH cab because they hadn't taken account of the recessed cab front on their kit and thankfully someone pointed it out to me before I had gone too far.

 

Arthur was a great help with the detailing.

 

Thanks, Rob. I actually used your excellent build as a guide for this one. Dave getting the cab right is a big help. At some point, Mine is an early NER loco. I'll build another as a Darlington/LNER loco with all the LH smokebox rodding as you did, and with AWS - this will give a different look to the 2 locos

 

John

[micklner]

I would have contacted Alexander models re the crosshead, on how to fit (it sounds a very strange way to fit a Con rod) and now sadly its replacement. He has been good deal with in the past. 

 

Does the Boiler fit flush with the saddle when screwed down, without forcing it down ? You appear to have  the Cab and Firebox high on the front of each in the pictures , this judging from the gaps between them and the footplate.

[rowanj]

I would have contacted Alexander models re the crosshead, on how to fit (it sounds a very strange way to fit a Con rod) and now sadly its replacement. He has been good deal with in the past. 

 

Does the Boiler fit flush with the saddle when screwed down, without forcing it down ? You appear to have  the Cab and Firebox high on the front of each in the pictures , this judging from the gaps between them and the footplate.

 

Hi Mick - always good to hear from you.

 

I agree that Dave is always willing to help, but I guess I assumed the Comet would be a straightforward replacement - and actually a better bet as it is pre-drilled to take a fixing nut and bolt, Then it just became a case of "I've started so I'll finish" knowing I could always get back to Dave if it didn't work. 

 

Funnily enough, though it's ages since I built a chassis with double slidebars, I never had any problem with them - usually Comet. It's LNER single bars which used to confound me, with the crosshead always falling out of the single slidebar

 

As for riding, I hope the photo shows the saddle/smokebox is a good fit. In fact, the quality of the castings is excellent, and any cock ups are down to my lack of craftsmanship.

 

John

Edited October 9, 2017 by rowanj

[micklner]

Glad its fitting down ok , I was concerned that the Footplate would distort when it is all screwed down.

 

Crosshead picture is a total blur, and I am sure its now sorted !!. I agree a much simpler method using a screw and nut, I suggest recessing the nut if there is enough meat in the crosshead to allow it . It will help with clearance on the Coupling Rods.