nicktamarensis Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Hi, Apologies in advance from a complete wiring novice. I have returned to the hobby after many years absence and find myself stumped by something fairly basic. Decades ago I was always the 'scenery chap' in past projects and I regret now not taking any notice of what the 'electrics man' was up to! I am constructing an end to end 10' x 10' 'L' shaped layout having a terminus at one end and 'country area' at the other. The track is SMP Scaleway and the points are all Marcway which at the moment are all manually worked. All the points at the terminus end fan out from one line coming into the station throat and work OK from one electrical feed. However, when I have attempted to connect a siding at the terminus end fed from a point running in the opposite direction I cannot get it to work. I have given the siding a separate feed but am not sure how this should be connected back to the controller. This is a basic 'Combi' btw. Do I need a rail break somewhere with an associated switch? Many thanks in advance, Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicktamarensis Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 Hi Dutch Master, Thanks very much for a very speedy reply. I've appended a (very) rough plan of the terminus end. I hope this helps. If you can elucidate on the location of the isolation point and how I switch back to the controller this would be most helpful. Can I use the same switches already used for the loco release road? When connecting back to the controller via a switch does this extra connection get fed in with the existing main feed or should this be connected via terminal block? Sorry to be so thick on this!! Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 See attached, put a switch in each of the 4 feeds then connect back to your controller, use terminal blocks wherever it suits for convenient wiring. Insulated joints should be in both rails, feeds to both rails. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicktamarensis Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 Thanks very much for your guidance. This is much appreciated. One question: Why do I need another feed in the station area when this part is all working OK? Cheers, Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 What I have given is the correct wiring for live frog points which I assumed Marcway to be as specified on their website. Without the gaps and separate feed you risk a short when the crossover is operated depending on the position of the points at the other end of the platform. If you don't get a short and it works then leave it if you want. The other reason to have a separate section for the end of the runround is so you can park an incoming loco there while you use another to shunt the train. Standard wiring practice for live frog self isolating points is to feed from the toe of the points. Including a switch for every feed then gives the maximum flexibility for operations or fault finding. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicktamarensis Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Many thanks again. Just to clarify...... Yes, Marcway points are live frogs. I have put in an insulated section on the loco release - but only on one of the tracks - this seems to work OK. I have also put in an insulated section on the extreme l/h end of the siding second up from the bottom one - again, only on one track and this seems to be OK as well. Apologies, another supplementary question - when you say to put in a break on both rails of the each affected track I assume that both sides of each rail would need to be connected via a switch - does this mean a switch for each rail of the track or can I combine the two sets of wires onto one switch? The track on both areas requiring treatment is already set and glued down onto a cork base - is it OK if I just remove or cut through the existing rail joiners from the track to point section and replace these with a small bit of plastic or card to prevent accidental re-connection? This would save me having to cut the track in a new location, plus the length of rail connecting the two points is only short. Also would you recommend the use of a DCU to filter all this wiring for the switches - I'm not sure whether the Combi on its own has enough 'oomph'. Apologies once more - all this is a fairly steep learning curve for me and a lot of the published info and that on the web appears to me to be confusing and contradictory - but I imagine that's mainly down to my inexperience!!! Cheers, Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicktamarensis Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Apologies once more - having read some other material on the site I assume that one just cuts the track for a break and there is no need to insulate it and then provide a switch connection. Although there is a break in the track, the loco wheels would pick up the current on both sides of the gap. Frighteningly basic stuff I know, but I'm still learning. Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Good site here http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
knitpick Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Nick; Grovenor's solution would work. [it would also ease any transition to DCC at a later date.] You will need double pole on-off (aka single throw) switches to switch both power and return to the feed points. These are a single switch - typically of the toggle switch variety. I personally would make one side a common and use single pole switches - but that affects the location of the insulating breaks. In respect of the extra station feed area, I would include it (and the associated insulating breaks) for additional operational flexibility. Note that without this feed, if the release crossover is set to the loop and the entry point to the platform you will get a short circuit. However with the points all correctly set it will - as you know - work OK. It's your railway so the final decision is yours. When inserting breaks after laying track, I have heard of people using Araldite in the gap. It's non-conductive; it can be filed to shape, and being an adhesive is less likely to fall out. However, I've never tried it myself. In respect of picking up both sides of a break, this only happens when the loco itself is bridging the gap - i.e. has wheels both sides of the gap. Once the loco is fully across the gap it will only pick up from the side that it is on. There is a slight proviso here in that a wagon or coach with metal wheels can sit with a wheel on top of the gap and conduct electricity between the two sections. Not sure about your "DCU" query. the Combi should have enough oomph to power a single loco anywhere on the line. If this is a mistype for CDU (Capacitor Discharge Unit) then that device is for point motors (aka point switches). It is nothing to do with section switching. But a CDU does give good oomph for changing points using solenoid style (e.g. Peco or Hornby) point motors. I hope this helps clarify matters rather than confuses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I've never used insulated rail joiners, or filled in the gap, with copper clad sleepered track. I just cut, or left, a gap. Whether that's right or wrong, it worked for me on two exhibition layouts that ran very smoothly and reliably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 One of the first things I have done for a new track plan is decide which rail is the Earth, or negative rail, the nearest or furthest, then subject to the need for rail breaks (at frogs), they are all connected together - 'Common Return' - thus the other rail of the track will be the Positive rails and these are the ones activated with Section switches etc., As stated in previous posts, beyond the frog(s) there needs to be a rail break, feed from the toe of the point. Thus in your sketch, you have one line to represent the track, try it with two lines per track, one another colour to be your Negative (Earth) rail. Eventually all will be come clear(er). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicktamarensis Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Thanks very much for all the info chaps. What a wonderful site this is! I have installed one of the new feeds and cut a rail break. The problem area now works perfectly! I'll repeat the dosage on the other siding and proceed from there. Knitpick - I take the point about the station area and will do as you suggest Apologies, it was a typo on my part - I meant CDU - and thanks for the tip about the Combi. My aim is create something that has a fair amount of operational interest but remains as simple as I can make it. I'll need to introduce about 4 or 5 point motors at some stage - but at the moment I'm shying away from this aspect until I feel a little braver! Many, many thanks again, I'm in your debt gentlemen. Cheers, Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Good to hear its going well, as knitpick says, a CDU is only relevant when you have solenoid type point motors. So far as insulated joints go, air is an insulator so just cutting a gap is fine so long as the rails as held firmly on each side, araldite or a slip of plasticard in the gap stops it accidentally closing up, you can also fit cosmetic plastic fishplates for better appearance if you like. Come back on here if you need more help. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicktamarensis Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 Many thanks Grovenor, There's bound to be other aspects that I will need your assistance over! I know it's off topic, but I have acquired a couple of Gaugemaster Seep PM4 motors for use with the Marcway points and drilled out positioning holes in the baseboard and also through the sleepers of the points ready for their installation. However, I've not taken this job any further at present. That'll be the next can of worms for me!!! Cheers, Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Apologies once more - having read some other material on the site I assume that one just cuts the track for a break and there is no need to insulate it and then provide a switch connection. Although there is a break in the track, the loco wheels would pick up the current on both sides of the gap. Frighteningly basic stuff I know, but I'm still learning. Nick. If you use any kind of track or rail than those made by Peco, you will find the Peco insulated fishplate will not fit. Therefore you will either leave off the metal fishplate or cut it through if already fitted with a silting disc . As to which rail is which, live or return, just make a decision and stick to it. Personally, I label the under side of the baseboard with a marker pen. Same for wiring, black is back is a trusted maxim for me. You can find as you connect up your controller, the loco goes the opposite way, not turn to the left, go to the left etc and so you have to reverse it's out put wiring. Have a copy of your track diagram and mark on it how you see the wiring. Then cross off as fitted. Best of luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicktamarensis Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 Thanks for the tip Judge. As you say, it's all about sticking to a plan and remaining consistent. I've been using Peco metal railjoiners rather than the Marcway ones - I can't get on with the latter as they are small and need squeezing shut once fitted. Fiddling work. The Peco ones fit better, but I cut these in half because they are so long! So far so good.............. Thanks again, Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimberian Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Hi Folks, I have just this minute registered to ask almost exactly the same question after deconstructing the set I got for Christmas, so thanks for the advice from me too. Would it be considered bad practice to also ask how this would apply to dead frog points, as these are what I am currently experimenting with before going out and buying the track I need for my master-plan, or should I open another thread? All the best, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimberian Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Welcome Paul. Best practice on RMweb is to search for threads that address your question, chances are it's been done at least twice in the last year As for the question: insul-frog type points don't have this problem, but because of that, cause other problems. So it's really a trade-off: ease of tracklaying or smooth operations. That's your call Hi, Thanks for your reply Like most forums, same questions over and over I am just unclear on what you mean by InsulFrogs not having this problem, as I have a dead section of track which looking at it now after the discussion I believe there would be no power going there. An extra feed would sort this I think, but I am thinking I probably wouldn't need to use IRJs as once the points are switched the original power is not getting through to that entire section, and so no short would occur? Cheers (and I will stop hijacking this thread now!) Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourthsVeil Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Paul, add another feed as shown below. It is standard wiring practice to feed from the TOE of the points. HTH Armin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted January 8, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2016 .... and with insulfrog points you are right, you don't need IRJs as the frogs keep the two sides of the circuit apart. With electrofrogs you would need IRJs on both rails between the 2 points top left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimberian Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Just a quick one to say thanks guys, very helpful. All the best, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acelauk Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 A method for wiring this type of layout may be seen at www.eastbank.org.uk/circuits.htm and go to Short Circuits No. 6. If dead frog points are used, no rail gaps are required. If live frog points are used the rail gaps shown are essential. In both instances the single link wires shown are essential. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardGreen Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 People often talk about "Common Return", but I cannot get my head around the concept. As the polarity of the rails changes with changes in the direction setting of the controllers, the common return will be required - at least on occasions - to act as both positive and negative at the same time if it is connected to more than one electrical section, won't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted May 19, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 19, 2016 Correct, that is so. However the various devices take the power required without any problems. Try it out and you'll find it just works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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