Modernisation Plan Diesels

[Nearholmer]

OK, now we've wandered seriously OT, I have an excuse to post this picture, of The Seven Stars in Kyushu train, with its dedicated loco. Basically a standard freight diesel, built especially for the job, and covered with vast amounts of faintly ridiculous bling. It looks a bit like an Austin A30 van to me.

 

Did any Modernisation Plan Diesel ever get pimped up to this degree, even for a Royal Train?

 

K

[Clive Mortimore]

This thread seems to have wandered off how useless BR diesels were to how useless Britain is. Strange that our politicians keep telling us everyone from the rest of the world wants to live here.

 

Anyhow as a 1960s diesel modeller I am pleased we have so many useless classes of locomotives. How boring it would have been if all we had was EMD locos, bit like today.

[railsquid]

The Japanese have such a variety of rolling stock and some very sturdy reliable DMUs from the 70s still doing excellent service. I feel our 14x and 150s are much inferior to the rugged KiHa 40

The train serving as my avatar is one such beast, and yes it did really carry that livery.

 

 

The variety of Japanese trains is a bit odd as they have vast numbers of identifit high density suburban EMUs that look pretty much the same to my eyes except for flashes of colour

Unfortunately in eastern Japan at least, many of the major railway companies have settled on a common design, lots of variations in cab ends and livery but overall an increasingly bland, if reliable and comfortable experience (provided you're not too worried about sitting at peak times).

 

My experience in this country is that there is never enough time allowed for the design process, with the consequence being that the design needs amending post construction, which is expensive and usually means the optimum solution is not achievable. If the Japanese are getting the design right before building, then it's easy to see where their reputation comes from...

 

If it's any consolation, the prototype of the newest generation of trains for Tokyo's Yamanote line (the main loop line and strategically critical) was put into revenue service in December and hurriedly withdrawn a few days later due to chronic software problems. No doubt they'll work it out, but the last time they introduced a new generation of trains (the design I mention above) they rolled them out on a less glamorous line first. There have also been quite a few incidents and accidents over the years which show things aren't quite as perfect as one might think.

 

However on the whole - speaking as a non-expert - for the most part the railways Just Work, each company owns its own track and stock and pretty much all started out as railway companies and are still customer-orientated, rather than investment opportunities sucking up subsidies for turning trains around before they reach their destination so as not to be late etc. Also you should have seen the face of my Japanese wife the first time we travelled on an HST in the UK (actually as it was to Hereford via Oxford and Worcester scratch the "HS" part) and I showed her how to open the carriage door.

 

Anyway time to split off the Japan stuff from this thread? I need my fix of BR era diesel lore.

[pete_mcfarlane]

OK, now we've wandered seriously OT, I have an excuse to post this picture, of The Seven Stars in Kyushu train, with its dedicated loco. Basically a standard freight diesel, built especially for the job, and covered with vast amounts of faintly ridiculous bling. It looks a bit like an Austin A30 van to me.

 

Did any Modernisation Plan Diesel ever get pimped up to this degree, even for a Royal Train?

 

K

Thank you MTV, you pimped my ride!

[railroadbill]

I was  a mere school boy "spotter" when dieselisation was getting into it's stride. (if I was being sarky, sir, I would say a pretty lame stride at that!)  We thought Deltics were great, because of their high power and better performance.   However the early locos like EE type 4s were rather naff because they had no better performance than say a Britannia (I travelled on the GE line to see an aunt from time to time). That would also apply to their work on the wcml.  The fact that less diesels could do the work of more steam locos because they could run a high mileage all day was of course not clear to us young enthusiasts. Unreliability of the early diesels was a pain, didn't seem to be able to go anywhere by train without it breaking down. 

Suburban trains that had what became a class 21 or a baby deltic didn't provide a better service that an N2 or L1 and just stopped in the middle of nowhere.

 

Later, locos like 47s which had more power than the locos they replaced  improved things on the lines that remained after Beeching.

 

The modernisation plan ran into Beeching anyway (left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing) and since vast swathes of railway were disappearing, they might as well have hung on with steam a bit longer.

 

The answer was electrification, and if they'd asked the 14 year old me, I could have told them that. But they didn't.   :-(

 

Of course in later years if there was a venerable old class 40 around I would be only too pleased to travel behind it!

[locoholic]

OK, now we've wandered seriously OT, I have an excuse to post this picture, of The Seven Stars in Kyushu train, with its dedicated loco. Basically a standard freight diesel, built especially for the job, and covered with vast amounts of faintly ridiculous bling. It looks a bit like an Austin A30 van to me.

Did any Modernisation Plan Diesel ever get pimped up to this degree, even for a Royal Train?

K

Why have they attached a grille from an Austin A30 to the front of that train?

[rockershovel]

I don't know that we ARE so very far OT.

 

There seems to be a consensus that the Modernisation Plan suffered from lack of clarity of vision, overpowering force of circumstances and lack of the management ability to produce usable designs, and the locos it produced reflected that.

[Nearholmer]

Locoholic - I have no idea, but if you see my post above the photo, you will see that the same question occurred to me. Nice that they've gold-plated it, though ....... So very tasteful. Not.

 

Rocker - I think you're about right. And, I've certainly learned a good deal along the way.

 

K

[PenrithBeacon]

I'm by no means an expert on diesels, but I get the impression that the steam engineers on BR thought that a like-for-like replacement in terms of horsepower was the way to go. This resulted in the proliferation of Type 2 power to replace the numerous Class 5 and 8 steam engines.

 

What they actually needed, of course (or so it seems with hindsight) was Type 3 and 4 to replace the Class 5 and 8 steam engines with Type 5 for the Class 8 and 9.

 

The LMS got it right with the 'Twins' at least for the conditions of the 1940s. Used as singles for a Class 5 and 8 replacement and doubles for Class 8 services. As the situation moved on single headed Type 5 was right for the replacement of the Class 8 Pacifics.

 

BR got there in the end, perhaps if the prototype phase of the Modernisation Plan had been allowed to continue, the experience of operating these would have caused the penny to drop a little earlier.

 

Regards

[Nearholmer]

This would have been useful at the beginning of this discussion, but I only just found it on line

 

http://www.pendragonpublishing.co.uk/Export_Or_Die.pdf

 

A very, very good article about the earlier years of the British diesel loco industry, full of fascinating "might have beens".

 

K

[Fat Controller]

I'm by no means an expert on diesels, but I get the impression that the steam engineers on BR thought that a like-for-like replacement in terms of horsepower was the way to go. This resulted in the proliferation of Type 2 power to replace the numerous Class 5 and 8 steam engines.

 

What they actually needed, of course (or so it seems with hindsight) was Type 3 and 4 to replace the Class 5 and 8 steam engines with Type 5 for the Class 8 and 9.

 

The LMS got it right with the 'Twins' at least for the conditions of the 1940s. Used as singles for a Class 5 and 8 replacement and doubles for Class 8 services. As the situation moved on single headed Type 5 was right for the replacement of the Class 8 Pacifics.

 

BR got there in the end, perhaps if the prototype phase of the Modernisation Plan had been allowed to continue, the experience of operating these would have caused the penny to drop a little earlier.

 

Regards

BR weren't the only ones to follow this route. The majority of SNCF diesels were either equivalent to a Type 2 (BB66000- 1380 bhp) or Type 3 (BB67000- 1970 bhp, up to 2350 bhp in later examples) The more powerful diesels numbered about a hundred A1A-A1A 68000 (2660 bhp, five using ex-BR Class 48 engines) and 93 CC72000 (3550bhp). The majority of diesel-hauled trains were, indeed still are, worked by the smaller types in multiple. The older locos are being replaced by BB75000, which are 2700 BHP, and usually work in multiple on freight. [all the bhp ratings are of the engine; the figures at rail level would be significantly less]

[jonny777]

Ultrasonic axle testing became applied to all the diesels in those days. The axles weren't, of course, plain parallel but had several changes of section across the length, such as wheel seats, gear seats, and the gear case seals, I think. Fatigue cracks were known about and the importance of surface finish applied, but cracks could still develop. A specially trained operator applied a scanner on the axle end, greased, and the scanner was shaped at an angle, to "look" along the inside surface of the axle, as the operator moved the scanner round. He was watching a cathode ray tube, which gave a flickering horizontal line, with little whiskery blips showing where the steps in the axle were, and also incipient cracks. This was repeated for both ends. Testing was done on a programme, so the whole deal was under control, with nothing going "ping" out on the track.

 

 

Sadly things did go ping on the track.  This was why they went searching for the ultrasound and associated oscilloscopes.

 

The Penzance parcels was derailed one night with a Western in charge, and broken axle was the cause. They took a chance that it would be a one-off which is where the 6 locos every weekend, lifted and bogies removed, policy came from.

 

None were found in the first two weekends, one in the third (total 18 locos) but then the fourth weekend found three on six locos, so as Fiennes says he panicked and took the whole class off passenger work.  The Canadian oscilloscope was then purchased and the class was restored to passenger working.

 

However, Laira found 7 cracks in one weekend with the ultrasound and that seems to have triggered the replacement programme which was done for every Western and Hymek, according to Fiennes.

[rockershovel]

.... which is rather an illustration of something the oil industry has learnt over the years, that better monitoring techniques tend to produce conclusions you were not, originally, looking for

 

The SNCF thing illustrates another important point, that engineers very rarely make deliberate or egregious mistakes. They may persist with known problems, such as Crewe's fixation with inadequate axle journals; they may have them imposed by cost-cutting senior management, or they may be wished upon them by marketing considerations, but left to their own devices they will work within known limits, which works well for as long as those limits apply.

 

It's fairly clear from the two examples that extrapolating from steam practice may have been all the information they had to work with, but events would subsequently show otherwise.

[Tim H]

BR weren't the only ones to follow this route. The majority of SNCF diesels were either equivalent to a Type 2 (BB66000- 1380 bhp) or Type 3 (BB67000- 1970 bhp, up to 2350 bhp in later examples) The more powerful diesels numbered about a hundred A1A-A1A 68000 (2660 bhp, five using ex-BR Class 48 engines) and 93 CC72000 (3550bhp). The majority of diesel-hauled trains were, indeed still are, worked by the smaller types in multiple. The older locos are being replaced by BB75000, which are 2700 BHP, and usually work in multiple on freight. [all the bhp ratings are of the engine; the figures at rail level would be significantly less]

 

Did SNCF have a significanl about of non-electrified trunk routes?  BR needed higher power main line traction because with one exception the major trunk routes were not electrified within the planned design life of the locomotives.  The exception was the SR where a "one size fits all" medium-powered machine suited their needs for non-electrified secondary traffic.

[Fat Controller]

Did SNCF have a significanl about of non-electrified trunk routes?  BR needed higher power main line traction because with one exception the major trunk routes were not electrified within the planned design life of the locomotives.  The exception was the SR where a "one size fits all" medium-powered machine suited their needs for non-electrified secondary traffic.

At the time the diesels were being ordered, there were large chunks of SNCF that had not been electrified, and which relied on ageing 141Rs, built for a short life and limited to 100kph. The routes not wired included those to Belfort, Cherbourg, Brittany and Clermont Ferrard, as well as routes to the Channel Ports (only Dunkerque was wired until 1994)- whilst none of the cities named are as important as Lyon, Marseille or Bordeaux, they were still important centres.

[Dava]

Just to add some photos of the locos in question, there is a line of modernisation era locos at Loughborough on the GCR.

 

Here is class 25 D5185, nicely turned out in green and a tidy external design, but even now it has little mechanical and cooling issues.

 

 

At the other end of the line-up is class 31 D5830, still in ginger livery. This is a reliable as well as good-looking loco and gets used a lot on Santa and dining trains.

 

 

Between these two are a pair of BRCW locos, 33 D6535 which looks a bit of an old dog, but mainly needs bodywork attention. The other is class 27 D5401. The BRCW locos may be less attractive externally than either of the other two, bristling with louvres, but over their working lives performed pretty reliably.

 

Class 20 D8098 was also there - but escaped photography this time by moving off quickly!

 

Dava

 

[Nearholmer]

"Did SNCF have a significanl about of non-electrified trunk routes?"

 

Until Eurostar and TGV-O, I think that all of the routes to Brittany and La Manche were diesel, and for premium fast services, gas turbine. I certainly recall some good rides behind "classic diesels", in pairs, hauling rakes of lead-heavy coaches that rode unbelievably smoothly.

 

And, one jolly exciting trip by RTG (gas turbine) to Boulogne, then to (Pegwell Bay maybe??) by big hovercraft. Both were loud and fast, but not at all comfortable. The white heat of fossil fuel consumption c1977!

 

Kevin

[Peter Kazmierczak]

This would have been useful at the beginning of this discussion, but I only just found it on line

 

http://www.pendragonpublishing.co.uk/Export_Or_Die.pdf

 

A very, very good article about the earlier years of the British diesel loco industry, full of fascinating "might have beens".

 

K

 

Well you can see where the external styling of the protype Deltic clearly originates.

[Reorte]

It's fairly clear from the two examples that extrapolating from steam practice may have been all the information they had to work with, but events would subsequently show otherwise.

A major change in motive power at a time when the railway was changing significantly anyway. I suppose it was clear that those changes were underway but how clear would it have been as to where they'd end up?

[cheesysmith]

Let's look at the 4 loco's lined up above. The 25 suffered from poor clean air management, with those bodyside intakes sucking in dirt laden air, resulting in premature engine wear. Also, overweight and poor electrical maintenance issues. The 27, GEC electrics and the b series sulzer engine required redesigned cylinder heads due to cracking. The 33 overall a excellent loco, except for the problems with using the inline 8 cylinder engine. The 31, when re-engined a very reliable design, spoilt by a poor electrical choice in unloading/week field. They were almost the diesel version of the midland compound, to run fast on short, lightweight trains.

[lapford34102]

Just to return to the Japanese comments for a moment though with a UK twist my son-in-law works at Ramsgate depot. They were very impressed with the Hitachi team who were there when the 395's were introduced. Very organized to the extent of having folding tables to put their kit on when checking a train - was told they arrived in a convoy of Landcruisers but that might be apocryphal. One member was even tasked with checking the litter bins were working correctly. IIRC what I was told they were based on a tried and tested Japanese unit though the signaling systems were new plus the 25kv/750dc system but they tested this to death on a 310/vep hybrid. Their philosophy was fix the problem, not the blame. Some wag did nearly cause an international incident by describing them as "Nissan VEP's"....

 

Sorry about going OT and now back to your scheduled programme :-)

 

Stu

[Fat Controller]

"Did SNCF have a significanl about of non-electrified trunk routes?"

 

Until Eurostar and TGV-O, I think that all of the routes to Brittany and La Manche were diesel, and for premium fast services, gas turbine. I certainly recall some good rides behind "classic diesels", in pairs, hauling rakes of lead-heavy coaches that rode unbelievably smoothly.

 

And, one jolly exciting trip by RTG (gas turbine) to Boulogne, then to (Pegwell Bay maybe??) by big hovercraft. Both were loud and fast, but not at all comfortable. The white heat of fossil fuel consumption c1977!

 

Kevin

The route to Dunkerque had been electrified fairly early, but  for the very heavy freight traffic, rather than for the Cross- Channel traffic. The routes to Cherbourg and Calais/Folkestone have been wired much more recently, In the case of the latter, it's been via Lille, rather than than via Amiens; the line between Amiens and Rang des Fliers remains diesel-operated at present. The Boulogne RTG service was to Boulogne Aeroglisseurs, south of Outereau, on what was otherwise a freight route to Outreau steelworks and the commercial port. I think the hovercraft I crossed on (at about the same time you used it, Kevin) went to either Folkestone or Dover, as I went forward by train. The shortest route to Paris from London, via Dieppe, remains diesel-operated as far as Rouen, with a change of train there.

[The Stationmaster]

Just to return to the Japanese comments for a moment though with a UK twist my son-in-law works at Ramsgate depot. They were very impressed with the Hitachi team who were there when the 395's were introduced. Very organized to the extent of having folding tables to put their kit on when checking a train - was told they arrived in a convoy of Landcruisers but that might be apocryphal. One member was even tasked with checking the litter bins were working correctly. IIRC what I was told they were based on a tried and tested Japanese unit though the signaling systems were new plus the 25kv/750dc system but they tested this to death on a 310/vep hybrid. Their philosophy was fix the problem, not the blame. Some wag did nearly cause an international incident by describing them as "Nissan VEP's"....

 

Sorry about going OT and now back to your scheduled programme :-)

 

Stu

I did a fair amount of ISA work on the hybrid test train - very interesting although I rapidly discovered in my part of that job that Hitachi's UK associate's paperwork for the test programme were not as reliable on detail as the Hitachi paperwork.

[Urthra]

I find it strange that after the plethora of diesel engine designs hauling thirty, fifty, even seventy ton vehicles from 1936 to 1945 under the harshest conditions - combat vehicles - anyone could argue that diesel power for heavy haulage was an unknown.

 

On the other hand, I did read recently of track design changing, and that steam loco wheels and axles were suddenly much more prone to damage with the new track. If this is true, it could have been a major factor in hastening the removal of steam.

If - pulling a tandom number from the proverbial - ten percent of steam loco wheels could have failed on the new track, that would have brought half the locos to a standstill....

[Nearholmer]

FC

 

I think you are right about that RTG/hovercraft journey. The hovercraft departed from nowhere near Boulogne town or ferry terminal, and the reason I queried Pegwell Bay was that I faintly remember walking from the hovercraft to the train, not catching a bus.

 

K