Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge Mk3 coaches

[piranha230]

Maybe they will, but I doubt it, for example a Hornby mk4 coach was around £12.50 when it was released in around 1989, a Hornby retooled mk3 was around £13.99 when they were first released in 1999, now they are both around £30.00 for tooling that is now 27 and 17 years old.

Oxford rail have a massive competitive edge if they can sell a highly detailed coach that is highly detailed, accurate, and with many small parts fitted for a similar price to the Hornby mk3 , I know which one I would go for.

Hornby are virtually bankrupt, they sell models that were tooled by Lima years ago at ridiculous prices, models with the wrong paint colours and there own tooled old models.

They have no innovation, they could of retooled the mk3 and captured that share of the market, they could do the mk3 dvt again in Intercity swallow livery, you rarely see that one on Ebay, they could do some AC electrics and multiple unit's, but no they just seem to concentrate on new steam train models, and put an old tooling ex Lima model into a new livery, they could just put a detailed underframe on the ex Lima class 156 and make a few alterations, wait I think another firm will announce this very soon, same again with its class 86 and 87, the last 2 are being done by another firm.

If Oxford rail tools up models that are more accurate than Hornby and Bachmann , but at a lower price, I think Hornby would be finished, and Bachmann would start to worry, they both seem to think they are invincible, they seem to not bother what recent companies have up there sleaves, such as Rapido and Realtrack .

People will not tolerate old tooled or innacurate models at highly raised prices, they simply wont buy them, or buy not as many as they used too.

Hornby have missed out big time, the mk3 coaches, the class 142 and class 156, and class 86 and class 87, all models within their current range, that will now be I suspect will be announced by new entrants to the market.

[Steamport Southport]

Hmmm.

 

So Hornby are finished and Oxford Rail are the new saviours of the model railway world?

 

Obviously you haven't looked at the respective Adams Radial Tanks then. Or the Dean Goods with the incorrect firebox that Airfix got right over 30 years ago, if it wasn't for the tender drive then that model would still stand up well today.

 

Don't even mention the mistakes on the LNER cattle wagons or the PO wagons with the wrong liveries for the type of wagon. Yes they are nice, reasonably priced models and will sell by the bucket load. But they are only of the standard of Mainline or Airfix from the early 1980s.

 

 

Sorry, but I just don't get the constant slating of Hornby for no reason whatsoever whilst "bigging up" other companies. If I had Hornby Mark 3s then I wouldn't be parting with them until I'd seen one in the flesh and checked for accuracy.

 

 

 

I wish Oxford well, but on the evidence so far they've got a long way to go before they are "more accurate than Hornby and Bachmann".

 

 

 

Jason

[Hilux5972]

I have to agree Jason. Hornby are definitely not going anywhere soon. Their locos are still a massive leap and they, along with Bachmann, each have their own locos that no one else makes, which very clearly gives them the market edge. Castle, 42xx/5205/72xx, 28xx/2884, B12, B17, Class 50, Class 56, Class 60, Class 67 just to name a few.

[lofty1966]

Maybe they will, but I doubt it, for example a Hornby mk4 coach was around £12.50 when it was released in around 1989, a Hornby retooled mk3 was around £13.99 when they were first released in 1999, now they are both around £30.00 for tooling that is now 27 and 17 years old.

Oxford rail have a massive competitive edge if they can sell a highly detailed coach that is highly detailed, accurate, and with many small parts fitted for a similar price to the Hornby mk3 , I know which one I would go for.

Hornby are virtually bankrupt, they sell models that were tooled by Lima years ago at ridiculous prices, models with the wrong paint colours and there own tooled old models.

They have no innovation, they could of retooled the mk3 and captured that share of the market, they could do the mk3 dvt again in Intercity swallow livery, you rarely see that one on Ebay, they could do some AC electrics and multiple unit's, but no they just seem to concentrate on new steam train models, and put an old tooling ex Lima model into a new livery, they could just put a detailed underframe on the ex Lima class 156 and make a few alterations, wait I think another firm will announce this very soon, same again with its class 86 and 87, the last 2 are being done by another firm.

If Oxford rail tools up models that are more accurate than Hornby and Bachmann , but at a lower price, I think Hornby would be finished, and Bachmann would start to worry, they both seem to think they are invincible, they seem to not bother what recent companies have up there sleaves, such as Rapido and Realtrack .

People will not tolerate old tooled or innacurate models at highly raised prices, they simply wont buy them, or buy not as many as they used too.

Hornby have missed out big time, the mk3 coaches, the class 142 and class 156, and class 86 and class 87, all models within their current range, that will now be I suspect will be announced by new entrants to the market.

You been smoking them funny fags again ?

7 plank wagons , 6 plank wagons , LNER cattle wagons , Dean Goods ....all with incorrect specs'!

Edited October 1, 2016 by lofty1966

[jjb1970]

I think when people accuse Hornby of no innovating, of not making detailed models etc what they're really saying is that Hornby are not making models that they personally want them to make. Either that or they're ignorant of the rebuilt LSWR coaches, Collett coaches, the forthcoming Peckett and air smoothed Merchant Navy etc. To claim Hornby are just selling old junk and cannot make a detailed model is absurd.

These Mk.3's look like being the model where Oxford get it right after a few disappointments which I welcome, but lets keep some perspective before righting off Hornby and Bachmann who both make plenty of great models.

[Wigan Wallgate OO Gauge]

Add the P2 to the list of Hornby's good original innovative designs

[Beacon]

A bit of an insight into the Oxford approach to pricing within the Facebook postings of their new releases yesterday evening:

 

"When I was last here the Brexit vote had not taken place, but the polls were indicating a victory for the remain, subsequently as we know, the result was to leave. This has repercussions on all companies like us, as of course our products are made overseas, so overnight the costs of us getting products to the UK increased by around 15%, indeed if you go back exactly 1 year the costs have increased by over 20%, This impacts on the tooling investment as well.

I was surprised to see some companies increase their prices overnight as there is a lag in these costs working their way through the supply chain. I have taken a softer decision on pricing, looking at the overall costs of the business – my 40 years training means that my view is:

If we all work 20% harder some of these costs can be offset

Some would argue that a return to UK manufacturing would avoid these increases, unfortunately they wouldn’t because:

Our base costs labour and overheads would be higher to start with

 

Raw Materials are imported because we don’t have the base materials

 

Prices for plastic and zinc are dollar based.

 

And the point of all of this is – don’t trust polls."

[Legend]

If it is the price then it'll throw a few cats amongst pigeons I think.

Where's that moggy when you need it!

 

Agree exceptional value. Well done Oxford

[royaloak]

Where's that moggy when you need it!

 

Agree exceptional value. Well done Oxford

IF that is the price they go on sale/ are sold at!

 

We are a long way from that.

[The Stationmaster]

IF that is the price they go on sale/ are sold at!

 

We are a long way from that.

 

We are indeed.  The economic situation might look reasonable at present in relation to the international value of the £ but that is always going to be a movable feast and it can go either way.  At present the real impact of Brexit is far from known or understood and for all we know we might be going through a sort of 'phoney war' period where nothing is happening before all hell breaks loose, but on the other hand all hell might not break loose - we simply don't know.  What we do know are that Oxford are a small company with low overheads while Hornby is not - and has much higher overheads and both it and Bachmann spend a lot of money on research and development.  We also know that Oxford are new entrants and as such are probably happy to try to build market share at the cost of relatively low rates of return, possibly even hoping to 'do a Hattons'  and make their money out of volume rather than by a higher gross profit on each model sold.

 

What we don't know is how it will all turn out and what hurdles there are along the way to cause any of these companies to stumble or what opening avenues will allow them to prosper.  Equally the Chinese situation is also fluid with many factories in the model business currently very hungry for whatever work they can get and no doubt sometimes pricing accordingly or doing other deals such as accepting the final part of payment at the time of UK wholesale sales rather than earlier in the process - that too can impact on retail price and reduce risk for the UK commissioner.

[Horsetan]

A bit of an insight into the Oxford approach to pricing ...:

"When I was last here the Brexit vote had not taken place, but the polls were indicating a victory for the remain, subsequently as we know, the result was to leave. ....the point of all of this is – don’t trust polls."

Don't trust polls....or Remainians?

[scottrains29]

I'm looking forward to these new coaches and will certainly be buying a fair few. I'll probably keep my 20 odd Hornby coaches for now at least.

 

As the OR coaches aren't at production stage yet, is it worth highlighting to them any areas of improvement so the get it right first time? They do look good to me but I would have liked working corridor connections as these really help make the train less toy like and more realistic. If this can't be done, perhaps the ability to remove the existing gangway to allow the modeller to add their own working ones would be good. Annoyingly, the old Hornby and Lima ones don't come off. I also hope they come with tinted widows. The latter Hornby ones do look better with them. I'd like then to come with lighting, or at least the ability/ space to add this later. Is there any other areas for improvement?

 

It's a pity Hornby didn't retool the mk3 when they brought out their latest power cars. It's looking been a story of cat and mouse re Hornby HSTs. The 1999 coaches were much better than the 1970's tooled per cars. Then the latest power cars were much better than the 1999 tooled coaches. Finally we can now have a set that all looks good

[Horsetan]

....As the OR coaches aren't at production stage yet, is it worth highlighting to them any areas of improvement so the get it right first time? ....

 

Word of advice: don't offer "help" in the relentless way that "adrianbs" did with a couple of other products - as I understand it, the manufacturer basically ignored him in the end.

[Wheatley]

[snipped]

 

Oxford rail have a massive competitive edge if they can sell a highly detailed coach that is highly detailed, accurate, and with many small parts fitted for a similar price to the Hornby mk3 , I know which one I would go for.

 

Hornby ... have no innovation, they could of retooled the mk3 and captured that share of the market, they could do the mk3 dvt again in Intercity swallow livery, you rarely see that one on Ebay, they could do some AC electrics and multiple unit's, but no they just seem to concentrate on new steam train models

 

 

...they seem to not bother what recent companies have up there sleaves, such as Rapido and Realtrack .

 

 

Hornby have missed out big time, the mk3 coaches, the class 142 and class 156, and class 86 and class 87, all models within their current range, that will now be I suspect will be announced by new entrants to the market.

 

I think Oxford's 'errors' on all their railway releases aren't errors at all, I think it's a deliberate policy. Tool up a model to modern standards of detail in terms of definition and sharpness of mouldings, get it 80% there in terms of accuracy, then churn it out ad nauseum in as many different liveries as possible at a very competitive pricepoint to the 95% of the market that don't care whether one of the sides is on back to front. Think about it - why spend several thousand pounds in extra tooling to do the cattle wagon properly when most of the market are very happy with it because you can't see both sides at the same time, and the others have already built the Parkside kit.  This is exactly how their car ranges work - one basic tooling with as many different liveries as possible.

 

The rest of your post sounds like the standard D&E modellers' grumble about Hornby. Their new steam era releases are exceptional, but you ignore these because they haven't moved on in D&E terms since their superlative Class 60 and HST (does the 71 count or is that not modern enough ?) Elsewhere Bachmann have grudgingly retooled their 40, and even Heljan, champions of the D&E scene, seem to be churning over their existing catalogue and not falling over themselves to add anything new after none of you bought their 86. (Although they have released a rather nice range of railbusses). Rapido and Realtrack, meanwhile, have precisely one class each in their respective catalogues.

 

In short, if you're expecting Oxford to corner the market with a "highly detailed coach that is highly detailed, accurate, and with many small parts fitted" I think you might be disappointed. Expect their 1976 TS to be exactly the same moulding as the 2016 version when it appears.

 

Several of Hornby's steam releases have sold out in weeks, some versions of the Peckett are sold out to pre-orders before it even goes into production. Maybe, just maybe, the D&E market isn't actually as big as the D&E market would have us believe it is ?

[Wigan Wallgate OO Gauge]

So guys, which of the two available liveries do you think will prove to be most popular?

[Derekstuart]

Godwins law, chapter 2.

 

ALL model railway discussions eventually end up in a debate as to whether or not Hornby is finished.

[jjb1970]

I'm undecided about Oxford. The Mk.3 looks like a step forward which is to be applauded but with their other models I couldn't make up my mind whether their business model was to aim for price sensitive consumers that wanted good levels of detail but were willing to compromise in their expectations to suppress cost (sort of like a Railroad+ approach) or whether they were just sloppy and willing to sign off products which were flawed. I actually think there is probably space for a Railroad+ approach but if they are actually claiming to be seen as providing market leading models then they need to improve their development process.

[piranha230]

My main point is that Bachmann and Hornby have massively increased prices over the last 3 years or so, blaming mainly Chinese labour costs, so if a new entrant can sell a highly detailed coach with many separately added parts, and Hornby are charging a similar amount for one that was first sold in 1989 and 1999 that has no separately fitted parts, I think we are being ripped off.

Fair enough Hornby might have some highly detailed models in its range, but they also sell old tooled models at ridiculously high prices.

Bachmann are less guilty for selling old tooled models, but are for ripping people off with price increases.

And to the person who posted Hornby is not in financial trouble and will be here for a long time, I suggest you do a google search and read up about it !.

[jjb1970]

If we all work 20% harder some of these costs can be offset

I'm not sure that is true, working hard and working productively are not the same thing.

[jjb1970]

The pricing argument is a complex one I think and there are many variables. I think that the argument often get discussed in terms of it company A has development and manufacturing costs of X, distribution and marketing costs of Y and a required rate of return of Z from which their pricing derives then this is true for all companies. That however ignores the fact that companies can have very different cost bases, efficiencies, management ability, distribution arrangements, required rates of return etc. So because one company needs to increase prices hugely does not necessarily mean others have to, and as the Station Master has pointed out the current state of some of the Chinese factories means that they're probably offering some attractive proposals to companies in a position to shop around without being tied to particular suppliers. Whatever I think about the avoidable errors on some of the Oxford releases I will say their pricing is very attractive, whether it is an aggressive policy or a long term model is another question but I'd note that their diecasts are still very competitively priced despite having been established in the market for many years now.

[Matt]

There's also the question of volume.  I suspect that re-releasing an old moulding will shift far fewer units than a new moulding and if you can have confidence in volume sales, you can afford to sell at a lower unit price.  I would think this would apply with Mk3 - it wouldn't matter what livery Hornby released on their Mk3, I still wouldn't buy.  But if OR make a good go of the Mk3 I can see my buying a whole load to replace all my ageing Lima and Hornby Mk3s...  and judging by comments on here I doubt I am alone.

 

M

[Nile_Griffith]

There are some very good observations about the commercial environment that ALL the manufacturers find themselves in today. What probably can't be overlooked is that Hornby (love em' or loathe em') do appear to have missed a trick. As already pointed out, a prototype with forty years plus service and a whole plethora of variation, coupled with a near network wide usage. You kind of have to wonder what it was that made Hornby, indeed any of the existing manufacturers, but Hornby in particularly. think it un-worthwhile not to pursue an updated model and bring it to sale. Bachmann seem to be making their usual fist of delivering on the promised and much awaited Mk2F's an item the market place has had a sustainable appetite for for quite some time. Could Hornby be rightly accused of complacence? Or maybe it is that their long term but as yet unconfirmed future policy to focus their high end hobbyist output on steam outline models and their volume Railroad product with legacy designs?

[Derekstuart]

I would like to try a ground breaking idea. I know this will seem a bit controversial with some people and as downright heresy with others, but:

LET US WAIT AND SEE. If they re reviewed and found to be poor then we don't buy. If they are reviewed and found to be good then we buy.

 

I know it is a far fetched concept, but don't forget who pioneered the idea.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Derekstuart

[Bilbo]

Saw the Mk3 samples today and have to say they looked really good. I am sure someone will find something to comment adversely on but they looked to me better than anything we have had so far.

The Dean goods was on display as well plus a sound version and that looks/sounds really impressive

[piranha230]

Saw the Mk3 samples today and have to say they looked really good. I am sure someone will find something to comment adversely on but they looked to me better than anything we have had so far.

The Dean goods was on display as well plus a sound version and that looks/sounds really impressive

They are EP samples, but you can see that they have lots of separately fitted parts, don't forget that 1st EP samples get lots of refinements before they are approved  for production , but then again when the  final thing gets released some weird rivet counter on here will say something is wrong with it.