Edwardian Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) LNWR livery does particularly suit smaller tank engines - the lining isn't "lost" to the great expanse of black as on say, a Stanier tender. That said, the ease with which the lining can follow curves or bring together an irregular shape means that it's also very effective on a Standard Class 4 2-6-4T. Midland red travels less well - it's really not suited to very large engines*, as the Princess Coronation pacifics bear witness. That said, I imagine IEG wouldn't work so well on them either - such a vast expanse of locomotive needs a subdued colour such as black or dark green. *Now there's a red rag to the Derby-baiters! Much as Western Region is not my 'thing', tender locomotives such as Halls, Manors and Collet Goods do look good in this livery. Not sure I could imagine a Marsh Atlantic looking good in IEG. Aside from the colour, it's a Victorian livery, so it's very much based upon panels; livery panels bordered with often elaborate lining and set against a darker or contrasting ground. You see examples on the NE, with late Fletcher (Saxony Green against Brunswick Green) and T W Worsdell (Saxony Green against Claret). Larger, later locomotives with larger areas of plain surfaces tend to favour plainer, simpler liveries and, perhaps, darker colours. Possibly merely a case of what we're used to seeing, but larger, later locomotives can have a relative simplicity of lines and fittings. Edited July 28, 2018 by Edwardian 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) Quite so. Ah Yes....the famous Steam Railway sponsored 're-paint' of City Of Truro..... In fact, only the one side was properly painted thus.... The uproar when photos were published was something to experience! Apparently, by the time that the NRM were 'informed', the loco was green again! City of Truro arrived on loan from the NRM in July 1984 for overhaul to main line working condition as part of the forthcoming GWR 150 celebrations. Prior to restoration, SVR Chief Engineer Alun Rees suggested to Steam Railway Magazine Editor David Wilcock that the SVR could repaint the driver's side of the locomotive in BR lined black as a ‘spoof’. This was done and photographed before strip down commenced. On 1 April 1985 the magazine published an article showing City of Truro in its ‘new’ unauthentic BR lined black livery as 3717 complete with smokebox number plate. The ‘April fool’ did not go down well in some quarters; the SVR received many vitriolic letters threatening returned membership cards, cashed-in shares and a boycott on visits, whilst the magazine was similarly criticised. https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_3717_City_of_Truro During its restoration in 1984, the locomotive was the subject of a 'spoof' by Steam Railway magazine. The engine was being restored on the Severn Valley Railway, and workshops foreman Alun Rees suggested to editor David Wilcock to repaint the driver's side of the locomotive in BR lined black as 3717. This took place, and several pictures of the engine as 3717 were taken on shed at Bridgnorth and in the Bridgnorth yard. It was almost discovered by John Coiley when he visited the railway that year, but Rees had the engine parked with its driver's side along the workshop's wall so it couldn't be seen. The images were released in 1985 with the note that 'proposals for a double chimney and high sided tender were narrowly defeated...' This subsequently upset many GWR enthusiasts; however, the engine never ran in this livery both in service or in preservation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_3700_Class_3440_City_of_Truro Edited July 28, 2018 by Sarahagain 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 Anyway, what’s wrong with black - provided it be lined and glossy... And as long as it's only applied to goods locomotives Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted July 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2018 And as long as it's only applied to goods locomotives Hope you don’t mind, but I have highlighted what appears to be a typo... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) Ah Yes....the famous Steam Railway sponsored 're-paint' of City Of Truro..... In fact, only the one side was properly painted thus.... The uproar when photos were published was something to experience! Almost as good a spoof as the physically impossible* claim to have covered a quarter-mile in 8.8 seconds. *Acceleration had gradually fallen from 2.8 mph per second when she was doing just over 80 mph to 0.23 mph per second over previous quarter-mile covered in 9.2 seconds, i.e. about 98 mph; to cover the next quarter-mile in 8.8 seconds, acceleration would have had to leap to 0.5 mph per second - requiring an increase in power that is clearly unphysical. That's even before we take into account the measurement uncertainties: Rous-Martin's stopwatches read to 0.2 s, so at nearly 100 mph the uncertainty in speed has to be +/- 1.1 mph with timing over quarter-miles - he seems to have been oblivious to this, merrily quoting speeds to three significant figures. And as long as it's only applied to goods locomotives Jim ... such as the engines that lumbered up from Euston with the 2pm, for Cardean to take over? Sorry this is all getting a bit OT for Oak Hill but, as Ahrons claims his friend said, better to be a dead mackerel on the London and North Western than a first class passenger on the Brighton. Edited July 28, 2018 by Compound2632 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted July 29, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2018 Oak Hill's Refurbishment - Day 3 The loco yard - It's been a while since we visited here! Day 2 was a write off as I was exhibiting with UMRC in Horsham, day 3 however has begun by looking at the loco yard, everything that was not stuck down has been removed. some more rewiring has been done as the work done on Friday had left a few sections still unreliable Ballast has been removed around the droppers, soldering has been done, ballast has been taken up between the rails in places where it was too high. FOr the first time ever my Tri-ang stock that is still on it's original wheels can enter the yard. I need to do something about the track that runs through the shed as the rails seem to have dropped, they are now below the floor so nothing can actually run into the shed until I have sorted that. Time to consider that, and once it is sorted I can begin the clean up and rebuild Gary 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu4472ke Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 Anyway, what’s wrong with black - provided it be lined and glossy... Even better when its lettered LNER Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted July 29, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2018 What's all this talk about lined black engines???? Gary 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 What's all this talk about lined black engines???? Ah, but they're lined red and white, not just red!! Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted July 30, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2018 Oak Hill's Refurbishment - Day 4 Some more loco yard bits Today has not seen as much work as I wanted, I have however got the tracks for the shed working, and given the loco yard section a clean. To say it looks different would be an understatement!! Next will be to look at the buildings in the yard, wouldn't it be nice to have working doors on the shed............................................. Gary 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2018 white Grey and cream... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted July 31, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2018 Grey and cream... With a very fine yellow line as well... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) With a very fine yellow line as well... Not so, according to Talbot et al., LNWR Liveries (HMRS). This gives the usual dimensions for cab, tender, or tank sides as, grey, 5/8", with a cream line, 1/8", immediately alongside, then 1 1/2" - 1 5/8" further in, a red line, 1/4". The specification for BR Mixed Traffic lining was identical. Edited July 31, 2018 by Compound2632 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted July 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2018 I am not expert on LNWR liveries but I know somwone . . . From the forthcoming Southern Style after Nationalisation being published shortly by the HMRS, referring to BR lined black: "The drawing D49-18727 for Dark Green Tender Engines also gave specifications for Lined Black (LB). The copy seen at Ryde IoW Works was dated February 1949. This drawing, which superseded the 1948 drawings, was of an ex-LMS style 4-6-0 numbered 44444. It gave details of the lining: Grey ⁵/₈ in. wide beside Cream, ¹/₈ in. wide, then a 1⁵/₈ in. gap of black and on the inside of that Red, ¼ in. wide. This only varied from the 1948 dimensions in that the grey was ¹/₈ in. thinner. The radius of 4 in. and the gap between the lining and the cab edge of 5 in. remained the same. The lining colours were quoted as “RFU RE paint specification Item Number . . . ”." So no yellow, though in early days before the Southern Region could get hold of cream paint it did use yellow instead. I hope that is helpful. Jonathan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2018 That drawing has been posted here. To get back on topic, are there any original drawings or specifications for the Brighton IEG lining, or is it handed down by tradition? I suppose when Gladstone was first preserved in 1926, Brighton works could call on painters who had first-hand knowledge. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted July 31, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2018 I'm not sure about original drawings or specifications, but we do still have the Brighton Toy and Model Museum's model of D2 "Como", which was reputedly painted at Brighton Works while IEG was still in use! I believe when Gladstone was painted in 1926 they tried to match the colour to that model. However by now both will have suffered from fading so the colours will be wrong, but at least they show us the correct styles of lining! Gary 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2018 According to that SLS page, Gladstone was repainted in 1959 - has it been repainted again since? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted July 31, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2018 I'm not aware of it having any other repaints, it may be the 1959 repaint I was think of with the attempt to match Como. If you look at the loco not it does have some rather tatty areas, so if it has been repainted, it wasn't recent. Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) I'm not sure about original drawings or specifications, but we do still have the Brighton Toy and Model Museum's model of D2 "Como", which was reputedly painted at Brighton Works while IEG was still in use! I believe when Gladstone was painted in 1926 they tried to match the colour to that model. However by now both will have suffered from fading so the colours will be wrong, but at least they show us the correct styles of lining! Gary That model of 'COMO' was in the Brighton Museum for many years....I remember it well from school visits! There are the names of a loco crew painted in the cab, as the LBSCR Locos were 'one-crew' locos at the time! I didn't know it had swapped sheds! (Been transfered to the Toy & Model Museum, presumably on loan?) In 1959 Gladstone was given by the Stephenson Locomotive Society (celebrating its Jubilee Year) to the British Transport Commission, with the agreement that the engine would be repainted in its original colouring and lining. During the repainting the BTC took the opportunity to present the engine in as true to its original form as possible. http://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/co205742/london-brighton-south-coast-railway-locomotive-gladstone-steam-locomotive It seems that Gladstone was transfered in 1975 from BTC Clapham to NRM York... "Restored' in 1977", so possibly new paint? In 1959 the Society celebrated its Golden Jubilee and it wished to have Gladstone in the best of condition to mark the event. Society Officers visited York to find there was nothing radically wrong with the engine, but it was in obvious need of a repaint. The price quoted by the British transport Commission, which was now responsible for the (old) York Museum was beyond the Society's means and therefore the time had come to offer Gladstone to the BTC with its other historical relics. The locomotive was therefore repainted under the supervision of Society members who had researched the accurate colouring and lining used in Brighton days; it was possibly the most accurate restoration of any preserved locomotive in Europe at the time. Gladstone was formally handed over to the BTC at York on 18 September 1959 adorned with a circular plaque mounted on the buffer beam. (See right) With the transfer of relics from the former BTC, Gladstone became part of the National Collection and was moved to the new National Railway Museum at York when it opened in 1975. To mark the 50th anniversary of its preservation, Gladstone was restored by the Museum staff and on 28 May 1977, carrying the LB&SCR Royal train headboard and decorations, it was on display to SLS members in the Museum yard together with the Pullman Car Topaz. This was much appreciated although one Brighton diehard remarked that he did not approve of having a Brighton engine coupled to a Pullman Car used on the the South Eastern & Chatham Railway! http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk/SLSgladstone.htm More photos, etc...) http://universalviewer.io/uv.html?manifest=https://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/iiif/objects/co205742#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=2&xywh=-553%2C-1%2C6223%2C3414 https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/214-gladstone-lbscr-214-lbscr-618-sr-b618/ Edited July 31, 2018 by Sarahagain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Doing some research for a future project a Highland Jones goods when the wife looked over my shoulder and said "what you up to" "Just playing around with an idea for another loco build" and she said "Not another o..... Oh its yellow, we've got to have a yellow one you must build it" so looks like the Highland goods going to be in Stroudley improved green (Yellow) and not Highland green. Oh well at least she's endorsed the build. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2018 As preserved? Or at least, No. 103 as livery reference. Are the Scottish engines restored c. 1959 and used for railtours in the 60s currently wearing the paint they were give then? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted July 31, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2018 Your quite right Sarah, It is at the Brighton Museum, the Toy and Model museum have it listed in their index, but upon actually reading the entry it says that it is only listed due to it's historical importance to Brighton, and not the fact that it is actually there. As a point of interest I note from the article that the model was actually started in the 1880's!! and took 13 years to complete! Gary 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Como is a city at the southern tip of Lake Como in Northern Italy, so not exactly a LBSCR Station, or town, or something else in the area ....in fact the D2s were named after towns and other places on the continent.... http://www.semgonline.com/steam/d2class_01.html No. 308. 'COMO' Built July 1883. Withdrawn December 1904. The Brighton Toy & Model Museum 'Como' page: https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/index/Como_locomotive_LBSCR_308_(Dr_J_Bradbury_Winter) Brightom Museum...Como... https://dams-brightonmuseums.org.uk/assetbank-pavilion/action/viewAsset?id=28254&index=2&total=6&view=viewSearchItem https://brightonmuseums.org.uk/discover/2015/02/26/images-of-brighton-gallery/ Another model of 'Como'. (4mm scale...) Includes a photo of the real thing! (& 'Caen') http://www.lbscrmodels.co.uk/como.html Home page: http://www.lbscrmodels.co.uk/index.html L.B.S.C.R. LOCOMOTIVE NAMES FROM 1900 listing...BRITISH RAILWAYS 1920 - 1970 http://www.britishrailways.info/LBSCR%20NAMES.htm 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2018 As preserved? Or at least, No. 103 as livery reference. Are the Scottish engines restored c. 1959 and used for railtours in the 60s currently wearing the paint they were give then? As far as I know they are, but how accurate a repaint they are is open to question..... Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Collier Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Having seen Como in the flesh at Brighton a few years back it showed how difficult it is to match colours. Although the model was built and painted in the same era as its full size counterparts the tender was supposedly built and finished before the loco. It was subtle but the loco and tender were different shades which shows how even at the time paint wasn't always mixed the same. Makes guessing now easier 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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