PECO Announces Bullhead Track for OO

[martin_wynne]

Looks very good to me, and worth waiting for. Strange how none (?) of the big boys is yet offering them on pre-order. (unless someone has seen something I have missed?)

 

Hi Mike,

 

Gaugemaster have them on pre-order:

 

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=PESL-U1188

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=PESL-U1189

 

Martin.

Edited September 22, 2017 by martin_wynne

[Mike Storey]

Hi Mike,

 

Gaugemaster have them on pre-order: http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=PESL-U1188&style=&strType=&Mcode=Peco+SL%2DU1188

 

Martin.

 

Thanks Martin - still no price shown. Seems very strange so soon before likely distribution.

[Russ (mines a pint)]

I have a whole layout on hold until they are available,

 

likewise-

 I quite enjoy building small numbers of points , and although I have done in EM before I'm really dont have the time to commit for it these days. 

 

I'm not one for ultra technical detail - glaze over at many things - I still have a huge stash of both EM and OO sleeper base (bought cheaply in bulk) and if the points look good enough to go with the OO sleeper bases that will do for me and save massive amounts of time,  I doubt the sleeper thicknesses will match the old sleeper bases but thats easy enough to work round. 

 

To me its the sleeper size and spacing that looks wrong on the old code 75/100 track and that is a bigger issue to me than the gauge.

[martin_wynne]

Maybe distribution isn't as close as Peco have been suggesting? All part of the marketing to raise awareness and expectations. No doubt they have an eye on the Warley Show at the end of November.

[lapford34102]

 

still no price shown

Perhaps they haven't yet finalised the price or only done so recently.  We'll know when they're ready.

 

Personally expecting something a magnitude greater than perhaps we're used to.

 

Stu

[Russ (mines a pint)]

Perhaps they haven't yet finalised the price or only done so recently.  We'll know when they're ready.

 

Personally expecting something a magnitude greater than perhaps we're used to.

 

Stu

Perhaps O gauge prices as they are offered a choice of flatbottom or bullhead - ie £30-£40 per point? 

[lapford34102]

Russ, that sounds about right. Production costs will be similar, material differences won"t be that significant

Stu

[Mike Storey]

Perhaps O gauge prices as they are offered a choice of flatbottom or bullhead - ie £30-£40 per point? 

 

Whoaaa....hold on a minute there fella. That would put them pretty close to a C&L or Marcway price for a 00 RTR (they build the kit for you jobbie) unless I am way out of date with their pricing. If you are right (and I don't see it myself for what is likely to become a mass-produced product given the, reported, sales so far of the plain track and the huge numbers of pre-orders placed with those retailers allowing it), but if you are right, that would not be a turnout. It would be an utter turn-off.

 

O Gauge is still a relatively niche market, although expanding fast, so unit cost will be relatively higher to re-coup capital investment and make a few sovs, I am used to paying such prices for 16mm NG points (which are actually 0 gauge in gauge, if you see what I mean), which is also, despite our self-delusion, a surprisingly niche market.

 

I doubt we are looking at much more than a 30-50% premium on current Code 75 points........he says hopefully. 

[Bernard Lamb]

Whoaaa....hold on a minute there fella. That would put them pretty close to a C&L or Marcway price for a 00 RTR (they build the kit for you jobbie) unless I am way out of date with their pricing. If you are right (and I don't see it myself for what is likely to become a mass-produced product given the, reported, sales so far of the plain track and the huge numbers of pre-orders placed with those retailers allowing it), but if you are right, that would not be a turnout. It would be an utter turn-off.

 

O Gauge is still a relatively niche market, although expanding fast, so unit cost will be relatively higher to re-coup capital investment and make a few sovs, I am used to paying such prices for 16mm NG points (which are actually 0 gauge in gauge, if you see what I mean), which is also, despite our self-delusion, a surprisingly niche market.

 

I doubt we are looking at much more than a 30-50% premium on current Code 75 points........he says hopefully. 

It all comes back to the principle that cost and price bear no relationship to each other.

It might well come down to what will the market bear, rather than can we make our usual margin.

I would agree that your price band is in the right area to satisfy all requirements.

Bernard

[martin_wynne]

It all comes back to the principle that cost and price bear no relationship to each other.

 

Unless one is greater than the other, they won't be on the market for long.

 

Peco reportedly admitted earlier in this topic that they would be at a premium price because of the hand assembly needed for bullhead rail. I was surprised to see the solid machined switch blades instead of the hollow stampings -- it all adds to the cost. Looking at the pictures and a Peco 0 Gauge bullhead turnout, almost the only difference is the extra cost of material, which is a minor part of the total cost. I shall be surprised if the cost of these new turnouts comes in very much lower than the 0 Gauge turnouts. Also it's likely the market size is about the same -- mass-market this isn't, that's what the Code 100 range is for.

 

Martin.

[RANGERS]

The cost was always predicted to be North of £30, £40 was probably nearer the mark. Not sure how this compares with C&L RTR, I'd been thinking they were much more, but given its a fully functioning point, requiring very little else before you run trains over it, The added cost of actuating mech and polarity switching adds a touch more to the custom built.

[Tiptonian]

A very quick look at C+L website implies a C+L finished point to be £117. (Kit price of £57 plus £60 professional assembly.)       http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_377_1082

I hope I have got this wrong. Please correct me if I have!

 

Alternatively, there is, and "always" has been, Marcway, at £27:50p, or if you go down to 48" radius, four for £98!

http://www.marcway.net/list2.php?col=head&name=Marcway+00+%26+EM+Pointwork

 

If Peco can not beat this price, I wonder how many people will re-discover Marcway?

[martin_wynne]

A very quick look at C+L website implies a C+L finished point to be £117. (Kit price of £57 plus £60 professional assembly.)       http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_377_1082

I hope I have got this wrong. Please correct me if I have!

 

That's the correct C&L price. However, there is now no means of ordering them on the web site. I suspect this option has not survived the transfer to new ownership. It would be interesting to know how many were ever sold?

 

It would be better to contact one of the several professional track builders directly. That way for 00 you can also make it clear that you don't want the DOGA-Fine standard.

 

Martin.

[steve45]

The cost was always predicted to be North of £30, £40 was probably nearer the mark. Not sure how this compares with C&L RTR, I'd been thinking they were much more, but given its a fully functioning point, requiring very little else before you run trains over it, The added cost of actuating mech and polarity switching adds a touch more to the custom built.

Who predicted that, was it Peco?

 

The cost breakdown does not necessarily follow the O guage values as it is likely that volumes will be greater therefore there will be economies of larger production runs.

 

I think the marketing people at Peco need to consider pricing carefully, as they haven't launched anything like this before and if they don't get it right it will be dead in the water

[bertiedog]

It seems a bit strange to bring up the price this late in the discussion, it is a very specialist point to go with the bullhead track, and Peco warned the price would be higher than the standard products. I hope the distribution will be national and not confined to the Warley Show, which most people cannot attend.

 

The point cannot be compared to others easily, as it is pretty unique as a ready to use product with a good level of detail built in, and with respect to Marcway track and points, is not quite the same type of product or market.

 

The track so far has proved to be very good, if a bit delicate to handle before and during laying, and is a bit worrying that the average user is forced for the foreseeable future to mix in flatbottom points as well, with the smaller and tighter sleepering. On my current layout being a light railway points can be "buried" or altered one by one to get a match that barely shows, but we do need basic left and right points as soon as possible.

 

I hope the realistic price level chosen will not slow the sales or risk it's success, as it is on it's own at present, as rivals like the DCC have been dormant now for a long time.

 

The market for a decent main line track is the dominant one, and Peco will have to speed up the various points to supply this marketplace, or the whole line might stagnate or even fade away. But the one thing it is not going to be is as cheap as the other Peco tracks.

[bertiedog]

On the quoted prices, I think a lot has been assumed, as, as far as I know, no price level has been mentioned by the people at Peco, although hints were dropped on occasions comparing it to the O gauge product.

Stephen.

[martin_wynne]

The cost breakdown does not necessarily follow the O guage values as it is likely that volumes will be greater therefore there will be economies of larger production runs.

 

If it involves hand assembly as Peco have said (insert-moulding of bullhead rail is difficult) there may not be much to be gained from the economies of scale.

 

Do Peco have any robots? AI is developing fast -- has a robot anywhere in the world been trained to thread code 75 bullhead rail through a chair?

 

Martin.

[bertiedog]

It's not so much threading sleepered chairs, that a non robot jig could do in a flash, but the issue is making the chair moulding grip the bullhead section and keeping it upright in the mouldings with a tight grip. Flathead is easy, the shape is the cross section of a keyed joint, but bullhead is vague in comparison in 4mm scale sizes.

 

Look at the plain track and after it is correctly laid and ballasted push the rail top sideways, it moves far more than the flatbottom, which resists the side pressure easily.

 

As made it also pops out of the chairs a bit too easily, but fortunately simple pressure downwards will return it into the chair, some thing flatbottom cannot do, and requires re threading the lot.

 

I expect that Peco are welding extra hidden retainers to the rail sections in the points, that will keep the rail fastened and upright, as chairs alone would not be enough to meet the usual standards of robustness that Peco offer.

 

This is one of the areas that C&L fall short on, the assembled points are very delicate until fully fitted, something the Peco dare not supply, given the track record of general robustness they aim for.

 

Stephen

Edited September 24, 2017 by bertiedog

[AndyID]

 

Do Peco have any robots? AI is developing fast -- has a robot anywhere in the world been trained to thread code 75 bullhead rail through a chair?

 

Martin.

It's not impossible. The end of the rail could be formed into a "snake" that would thread easily. It would be cut off after assembly.

 

Another option might be to do it just like the real thing and insert keys (or thermoform part of the chair) after the rail is dropped into the chairs.

 

But it would take a serious investment that would only make sense if the volume justified it.

[martin_wynne]

But it would take a serious investment that would only make sense if the volume justified it.

 

Not a major investment to supply a bag of keys and a miniature hammer.

 

It's been done in the past -- over to Stephen.

 

And still is in 0 Gauge:

 

 

Martin.

Edited September 24, 2017 by martin_wynne

[bertiedog]

The track mouldings are simply fitted to a jig base, by hand or machine, and the rail section drawn in to place through the chairs, guided by a knife edge that opens the chairs slightly, and guides outside each chair that travel with the rail section. I doubt a robot could do it faster, robots only favour mass production 24 hours a day, and Peco with respect are not in that sort of market.

I did see Farish assembling Formoway.....not even a real jig, just a skilled assembler.

Stephen

[AndyID]

Not a major investment to supply a bag of keys and a miniature hammer.

 

It's been done in the past -- over to Stephen.

 

And still is in 0 Gauge:

 

 

Martin.

I tried it in 00. The domestic authorities shut it down on account of my language

[Bernard Lamb]

This is one of the areas that C&L fall short on, the assembled points are very delicate until fully fitted, something the Peco dare not supply, given the track record of general robustness they aim for.

 

Stephen

That issue is non existent if you work to the sequence as per the original instructions.

The components are designed for building both plain track and point work in situ.

It is not surely any fault of C & L if people don't assemble the items correctly.

In that respect C & L and Peco are aimed at very different markets.

Bernard

[bertiedog]

That issue is non existent if you work to the sequence as per the original instructions.

The components are designed for building both plain track and point work in situ.

It is not surely any fault of C & L if people don't assemble the items correctly.

In that respect C & L and Peco are aimed at very different markets.

Bernard

That's the whole point, there is no fault with C&L, it is just they must be made carefully and to instructions, and during the process are risking damage from all but the most skilled assembler. This does not mean it is difficult to learn to do it, but be fair a lot of modellers never even read the instructions, and I have see tracklaying that people are proud of, yet had issues galore.

Peco face producing a perfect product, thats very different to home assembly, and thats what your paying for, which is where we came in.

[coachmann]

It seems that people who have never built anything have absolutely no appreciation of what is being offered. Instead of just looking at the price point, try to see the new bullhead point as a ready-to-use product that is available to everyone. Everyone will have the opportunity to have points on their layout that are currently only the preserve of people able to afford professional track builders or who take the time and effort to build their own.