PECO Announces Bullhead Track for OO

[bertiedog]

I well remember a club member who proposed to remove all the Peco flexible track he had laid, as it "did not work", and this statement was on the track, not the points. He said it kinked, and the large radius's were impossible to lay accurately, so I went to view the layout to help out.

 

Apart from making the situation worse by running at full speeds most of the time, he did indeed have kinks all over the place and also "hollows" in the track . On checking he used a ruler or straight edge, he said no, he had none that big, whilst standing in front of a pile of six foot battens stacked against the wall. I suggested that these could be used and he said some runs were longer than six feet, so I suggested a taut string to align the battens, he simply had no idea about how to draw or layout a straight line.

 

I asked how he laid the curves,... by eye!...and suggested the battens again, or a piece of string. Any way it was quite quickly relaid, and he learnt darn quick, it was just he had never been taught how to lay out shapes etc.

 

When it came to laying out a right angle he had no idea a couple of bits of string could do it accurately.

and all of this from a man who believed in a pub discussion that the Egyptians could not have built the pyramids without help from aliens......

 

Anyway he got the track near perfect in the end......

[martin_wynne]

It seems that people who have never built anything have absolutely no appreciation of what is being offered. Instead of just looking at the price point, try to see the new bullhead point as a ready-to-use product that is available to everyone. Everyone will have the opportunity to have points on their layout that are currently only the preserve of people able to afford professional track builders or who take the time and effort to build their own.

 

As I mentioned earlier, we may not have appreciated just what a leap into a new market this could be for Peco. There are going to be modellers buying these turnouts who haven't bought a single thing from Peco for 30 years.

 

And where might it lead? Peco can't go longer with their existing geometry, and a bullhead inside slip on their existing 12-degree geometry would look absurd. Any bets on the next in line:

 

1. curved versions of these turnouts.

 

2. a longer B-7 turnout.

 

3. 1:7 diamond-crossing and slips.

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

I well remember a club member ...

 

I don't believe that is the market Peco are looking at for this new track. They make the Code 100 range for a reason -- and will go on making it.

 

Martin.

[Jeff Smith]

It's not so much threading sleepered chairs, that a non robot jig could do in a flash, but the issue is making the chair moulding grip the bullhead section and keeping it upright in the mouldings with a tight grip. Flathead is easy, the shape is the cross section of a keyed joint, but bullhead is vague in comparison in 4mm scale sizes.

 

Look at the plain track and after it is correctly laid and ballasted push the rail top sideways, it moves far more than the flatbottom, which resists the side pressure easily.

 

As made it also pops out of the chairs a bit too easily, but fortunately simple pressure downwards will return it into the chair, some thing flatbottom cannot do, and requires re threading the lot.

 

I expect that Peco are welding extra hidden retainers to the rail sections in the points, that will keep the rail fastened and upright, as chairs alone would not be enough to meet the usual standards of robustness that Peco offer.

 

This is one of the areas that C&L fall short on, the assembled points are very delicate until fully fitted, something the Peco dare not supply, given the track record of general robustness they aim for.

 

Stephen

Remember that Peco is attempting to please all camps. The reduced height inner jaw has to accommodate older wheels as well as support the rail.

[Guest]

I can understand PECO sticking with their current "standard" of Small, Medium and Large turnouts etc but it would be a great and major step to move to more prototype based turnouts, as pointed out above i.e. B7 etc. Maybe the people tempted by the new range (at a new price!) will be different enough to those happy with Code 100 and Code 75 for PECO to make the leap. One can only hope.

[martin_wynne]

I can understand PECO sticking with their current "standard" of Small, Medium and Large turnouts etc but it would be a great and major step to move to more prototype based turnouts, as pointed out above i.e. B7 etc. Maybe the people tempted by the new range (at a new price!) will be different enough to those happy with Code 100 and Code 75 for PECO to make the leap. One can only hope.

 

It's difficult to know. This is the Peco small radius turnout and double-slip with bullhead timbering matching their flexi-track:

 

 

The radius in the slip is only 19".

 

I would think that modellers who have been pressing Peco for better track wouldn't be happy with that. It's the sort of thing you might find behind the gasworks. But you never know.

 

Peco should know -- they've got 60 years worth of sales figures.

 

Martin.

[Dungrange]

The radius in the slip is only 19".

 

I would think that modellers who have been pressing Peco for better track wouldn't be happy with that. It's the sort of thing you might find behind the gasworks. But you never know.

 

Of course there seems to be an increasing interest in small industrial locomotives at the moment, so perhaps the small points would appeal to the same market and in the future we'll see a lot of industrial layouts using small radius points (if Peco produce them).

Edited September 24, 2017 by Dungrange

[steve45]

If it involves hand assembly as Peco have said (insert-moulding of bullhead rail is difficult) there may not be much to be gained from the economies of scale.

 

Do Peco have any robots? AI is developing fast -- has a robot anywhere in the world been trained to thread code 75 bullhead rail through a chair?

 

Martin.

 

There would not only be reduced plastic  and nickel silver material usage quantities (both of which are purchased in units of weight) but also due to longer production runs the injection moulding machine costs would be lower as there would be fewer tool changes and machine set up costs. Also the cost of stockholding is reduced, and as there are likely to be more sold, packaging and transportation costs will be less. According to your assumptions hand assembly costs will be the same, but as the unit is smaller then the hand movements will not be as great in distance therefore there should be more units made per hour.

 

I could go on but I believe that there is a price point on this product beyond which a lot of people will not go beyond. In the real world everyone has a budget whether it is for modelling or their own total household budget and £40 is too rich for me, at that price 'I'm out' as they say.

[sp1]

There would not only be reduced plastic and nickel silver material usage quantities (both of which are purchased in units of weight) but also due to longer production runs the injection moulding machine costs would be lower as there would be fewer tool changes and machine set up costs. Also the cost of stockholding is reduced, and as there are likely to be more sold, packaging and transportation costs will be less. According to your assumptions hand assembly costs will be the same, but as the unit is smaller then the hand movements will not be as great in distance therefore there should be more units made per hour.

 

I could go on but I believe that there is a price point on this product beyond which a lot of people will not go beyond. In the real world everyone has a budget whether it is for modelling or their own total household budget and £40 is too rich for me, at that price 'I'm out' as they say.

Agree. I can build turnouts for a fraction of the price of a ready to lay one. Ready built copper clad ones from Marcway come in at around £25. If the new Peco bullhead ones are less than this I will go with them (bearing in mind it takes me about 4 hours for each turnout- allowing for coffee breaks etc) . I also have baseboards ready to go - I can wait and see for a few weeks- anywhere between £15 and £25 I will use these, just in terms of ease of use and the time factor to get things up and running......

[martin_wynne]

but as the unit is smaller then the hand movements will not be as great in distance therefore there should be more units made per hour.

 

But the components are smaller, needing greater hand-eye co-ordination. I would be surprised if one of these can be assembled much faster than the same thing in 0 gauge. Either way, I don't think buyers will want them thrown together as fast as possible to save a few quid -- Peco have a reputation for quality and reliability which they guard carefully.

 

Martin.

[newbryford]

Agree. I can build turnouts for a fraction of the price of a ready to lay one. Ready built copper clad ones from Marcway come in at around £25. If the new Peco bullhead ones are less than this I will go with them (bearing in mind it takes me about 4 hours for each turnout- allowing for coffee breaks etc) . I also have baseboards ready to go - I can wait and see for a few weeks- anywhere between £15 and £25 I will use these, just in terms of ease of use and the time factor to get things up and running...... 

 

At a minimum wage of £7.60, that's £30.20 in labour alone........ 

 

Cue discussion about the cost of "spare" time.

 

I could use that same four hours far more productively - playing trains for instance.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Pacific231G]

It's difficult to know. This is the Peco small radius turnout and double-slip with bullhead timbering matching their flexi-track:

 

 

The radius in the slip is only 19".

 

I would think that modellers who have been pressing Peco for better track wouldn't be happy with that. It's the sort of thing you might find behind the gasworks. But you never know.

 

Peco should know -- they've got 60 years worth of sales figures.

 

Martin.

Thanks for this Martin

I knew that the radii in Peco's slips were tight but didn't realise they were quite that tight and it explains why my attempts to design a very short terminus throat including them to replace medium radius points have produced unexpectedly severe buffer locking.I'm about to do the same exercise with an SMP slip and some of their 3ft radius turnouts but suspect I'll get the same result.(Update: I did,  one buffer of each coach was under the drawhook of the other just as with the Peco slip)

 

Since I don't have room for Peco's large radius points (which would themselves be unusually sharp for any main line) I'll be interested to see how their bullhead track looks when applied to medium radius pointwork. Possibly a bit more goods yard sidings than back of the gasworks though in the 1950s and 1960s when Peco were producing Pecoway and Individulay track using a sleeper spacing of about 2ft6ins in 4mm scale (10mm), most scale modellers seemed to regard a nominal radius of three feet even for handbuilt points as the norm in OO .

 

It certainly won't get over the fundamental dilemma that almost all of us run scale models on a very underscale railway (in terms of length rather than gauge) so are inevitably creating an impression of the railway rather than a scale model of the whole thing. Perhaps success is aesthetic rather than mathematical.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Pacific231G

[sp1]

At a minimum wage of £7.60, that's £30.20 in labour alone........ 

 

Cue discussion about the cost of "spare" time.

 

I could use that same four hours far more productively - playing trains for instance.

 

Cheers,

Mick

I could use those multiples of four hours procrastinating about what to actually build.....

[martin_wynne]

Price is very low here: http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1263_1_16679.html

[LBRJ]

Seems another reminder is needed....

These are not about Finescale realistic points that are exact replicas of real points for the many thumbed, they are a very welcome addition to the streamline range!

IF you really want to do better, and are not totally cack handed, other options have been available since the Forties

[martin_wynne]

they are a very welcome addition to the streamline range!

 

Rather more than just that, otherwise they would have the same hollow stamped switch blades, plastic check rails, etc.

 

Martin.

[LBRJ]

Rather more than just that, otherwise they would have the same hollow stamped switch blades, plastic check rails, etc.

 

Martin.

Oh sorry, I meant they are not supposed to be "C&L" standard - or anything like it..... They are ready made, ready to go BH points to add to the PECO range of Points and Track -, that is a major development and I welcome them massively 

but you knew that and just chose to say something just cos you could.

[martin_wynne]

but you knew that and just chose to say something just cos you could.

 

Isn't that the purpose of a forum?

 

It would be better not to post in a topic if you are not happy with others responding to it in their own way. There is the blogs section on RMweb if you prefer to have control of the subject and how the conversation around it develops.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[AndyID]

Oh sorry, I meant they are not supposed to be "C&L" standard - or anything like it..... They are ready made, ready to go BH points to add to the PECO range of Points and Track -, that is a major development and I welcome them massively 

but you knew that and just chose to say something just cos you could.

I got the impression Martin was complementing Peco on this product. Did I miss something?

[PMP]

Unless one is greater than the other, they won't be on the market for long.

 

Peco reportedly admitted earlier in this topic that they would be at a premium price because of the hand assembly needed for bullhead rail. I was surprised to see the solid machined switch blades instead of the hollow stampings -- it all adds to the cost.

 

 

Hmm and you said on here regarding a posting I'd made

After that rather bad-tempered post, you are going to look a bit silly if the turnouts are released at Easter with loose-heel switches

One of us is looking silly then, and its not me.

 

I posted this http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107569-peco-announces-bullhead-track-for-oo/?p=2565620

Apart from the delivery date looks like I was right, except for the bit that it was only Bertie that was blethering on about the point blades, I should have added your good self. Then again rather than making things up, I have actually been speaking to people directly involved with the project. Reading the thread closely enough you'll see that others too have been speaking to Peco, because their comments and mine have been consistent with each other, and accurate in content.

 

Maybe distribution isn't as close as Peco have been suggesting?

 

.

I hope the distribution will be national and not confined to the Warley Show, which most people cannot attend.

 

 

More bandwidth wasted...

I don't know about the track for the two people quoted above, but the points for me are in production. Oh almost forgot, as are those for retailers whom have placed orders for them.

 

Apologies for putting some factual information back in the thread, let the foaming recommence.

[Pacific231G]

Price is very low here: http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1263_1_16679.html

That's fair enough; they'll sell you any of their current stock for that very low price 

[martin_wynne]

One of us is looking silly then, and its not me

 

I'm happy to look silly. We are talking about a hobby where grown men play with toy trains.

 

Martin.

[Jeff Smith]

I'm happy to look silly. We are talking about a hobby where grown men play with toy trains.

 

Martin.

True enough, to us they are models, to the general public they are toy trains....

[hayfield]

That issue is non existent if you work to the sequence as per the original instructions.The components are designed for building both plain track and point work in situ.It is not surely any fault of C & L if people don't assemble the items correctly.In that respect C & L and Peco are aimed at very different markets.Bernard

 

Bernard

 

I totally agree with you regarding the instructions which I found vague, then Peter re-wrote them The other problem is that there are several different sequences which are mostly down to personal choice. So with so many differing pieces of information confusion sets in

 

The actual assembly is quite easy, the difficult part is the fabrication of the parts. Which in themselves are quite inexpensive in materials just the cost in labour, but the real costs from what I have noticed has I think been down to outsourcing the fabrication and the mark up required by a small size business. What is needed is a small one man cottage industry to step in

 

This has nothing to do with the new Peco turnout, which on looking at the Peco photos could be very promising

[Clive Mortimore]

Hmm and you said on here regarding a posting I'd made

After that rather bad-tempered post, you are going to look a bit silly if the turnouts are released at Easter with loose-heel switches

One of us is looking silly then, and its not me.

 

I posted this http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107569-peco-announces-bullhead-track-for-oo/?p=2565620

Apart from the delivery date looks like I was right, except for the bit that it was only Bertie that was blethering on about the point blades, I should have added your good self. Then again rather than making things up, I have actually been speaking to people directly involved with the project. Reading the thread closely enough you'll see that others too have been speaking to Peco, because their comments and mine have been consistent with each other, and accurate in content.

 

.

 

More bandwidth wasted...

I don't know about the track for the two people quoted above, but the points for me are in production. Oh almost forgot, as are those for retailers whom have placed orders for them.

 

Apologies for putting some factual information back in the thread, let the foaming recommence.

They won't sell, non prototype gauge, check rails too short, blades not tapered, crossing angle all wrong, don't have to make them, open the box and they work, commercial point motors fit them, no PCB to cut and I bet they will be reliable. Won't sell.