Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

Did it have an engine?

 

Apparently for a brief period c. 1905 they had a Peckett W4 on hire from Huntley & Palmers who were experiencing a temporary slump in the biscuit trade, or more specifically the commemorative biscuit tin trade, due to the lack of suitable events to commemorate.

[uax6]

The engine shed still exists and is used as a garage workshop. They had about 20 three plank (or was it four?) wagons....

 

 

Andy G

[Nearholmer]

I don't have the IRS county book for Norfolk, but if someone here does, that will almost certainly identify EOL's loco(s).

 

K

[Caley Jim]

Regarding RCH standards. They were indeed a means of bringing together what was 'best practice' at the time, so many features of the 'standard', of whatever year, would have been present in vehicles built in the years leading up to then. However, these were then the minimum standards to be applied from that time on.

 

Jim

[Clearwater]

Custom was booming in the Edwardian period.  I suspect the outbreak of co-operation between some companies was a reflection of the system reaching near saturation point in terms of the lines constructed.  There was no longer much 'low hanging fruit' in terms of desirable locations as yet unconnected to the system.  It made sense to rationalise, de-conflict, and to share the costs of new lines where possible. 

 

Another example might be the very fruitful co-operative relationship between the GW and GC at the turn of the Century, leading to the new joint line.  An earlier example stems from the 1880s, when the hitherto hostile GNR collaborated in a joint line that gave GE its link to the North.

 

That said, the GW built quite a lot of route miles in the Edwardian period.  Aimed at gaining or retaining competitive advantage, these were doublings of existing mainlines and the building of faster and more direct routes to existing important destinations (Westbury cut-off, direct routes for S Wales and Birmingham). The GW was not chasing after new locations, and additional communities served en route were by the by.

 

 

 

I agree that further amalgamations might well have occurred in due course even had that berk of a Kaiser not caused WW1.

I suspect the GW's plans were driven as much by economics and the changing importance of Birmingham relative to Bristol. Hence the cut-off and GCR cooperations made sense to compete against the LNWR. If they existed, it would be interesting to understand the relative profitability of the different GW routes. I suspect they made a good portion of their cash on those Birmingham services. Certainly, demand was large enough by the thirties to justify about a third of the crack express locos to be based on those services.

 

On a separate, tangential (apologies Edwardian!), is Birmingham unique in UK major cities in being served post grouping by competing companies on direct services to London? I know places other cities did have some joint stations but generally one seems to me to be much more secondary in nature whereas Birmingham had two direct London services both at true express timings

 

David

[Northroader]

Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham.

[£1.38]

Edinburgh

[Compound2632]

For how long into the grouping period did Manchester retain an express service to London via the GCR route?

 

Exeter and Plymouth.

 

Liverpool, if you allow Birkenhead.

 

Wolverhampton - generally the ultimate destination of both the Euston and Paddington Birmingham expresses.

 

Leicester.

[£1.38]

I suggest Aberdeen, Bradford, Salisbury(?), Chester and Wakefield too.

Edited July 3, 2017 by £1.38

[Donw]

I suspect the GW's plans were driven as much by economics and the changing importance of Birmingham relative to Bristol. Hence the cut-off and GCR cooperations made sense to compete against the LNWR. If they existed, it would be interesting to understand the relative profitability of the different GW routes. I suspect they made a good portion of their cash on those Birmingham services. Certainly, demand was large enough by the thirties to justify about a third of the crack express locos to be based on those services.

 

On a separate, tangential (apologies Edwardian!), is Birmingham unique in UK major cities in being served post grouping by competing companies on direct services to London? I know places other cities did have some joint stations but generally one seems to me to be much more secondary in nature whereas Birmingham had two direct London services both at true express timings

 

David

 

Depends on how you define it. Exeter and Plymouth both had GW and SR services there had been much competition in GW and LSWR days until they came to some agreement. Edinburgh had competing services via the East and West coast main lines these resolved to LMS and LNER services. The GW and LMS  ran services direct to Birkenhead and Liverpool respectively which although separated by the Mersey were in competition and both ran services to Chester There may be others possibly places like Sheffield has competing LMS and LNER services.

There could be surprising differences. People in Shropshire told me they would take the GWR services to Birmingham and London as it was quicker so although the line into Shrewsbury was GW and LNWR joint the bit from Wellington direct to Wolverhampton was GW only the LNWR line heading towards Stafford  

 

Don

[Donw]

I suggest Aberdeen, Bradford, Salisbury(?), Chester and Wakefield too.

 

I may be wrong but I am not sure if the GWR ran a direct service to Salisbury from London

Don

[Poggy1165]

The Manchester-Marylebone express service operated right through until BR days, I can't recall whether it ended in 1958 or 1960. Even after that there were night trains.

 

How many people, other than railway enthusiasts and employees with restricted privilege tickets, ever actually travelled from Manchester to Marylebone is another matter. However, even in pregrouping days the ordinary fare was identical, whichever route was taken, and at some point (not sure when) the tickets became interchangeable between GC/MR/LNWR so you could go one way and back another. Which suggests to me the revenue was pooled in some agreed ratio.

 

(As an aside, "foreign" privilege tickets were apparently restricted for many years, possibly right up to BR. We had family in St. Helens, and remember my grandparent's tales of being "forced" to take the GCR route many times instead of the faster and more direct LNWR one. Given that my grandfather was staunch in his love of the GCR, I also wonder how many "ordinary" passengers ever went that way to St. Helens?)

[Compound2632]

All this post-grouping discussion is getting seriously OT. It would be more instructive to list those towns and cities that were served by a single pre-grouping company only. Apart from places deep in North Eastern Railway territory, I think we'll struggle. Through carriages count as being served by a second company, e.g. Southampton, which saw Midland through carriages from the north via the M&SWJR.

 

EDIT: limited to passenger traffic.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Compound2632

[Poggy1165]

If you're counting through coaches, very few I should imagine. Kyle of Lochalsh, perhaps. Some very unlikely routes used to be offered.

[Tom Burnham]

The Manchester-Marylebone express service operated right through until BR days, I can't recall whether it ended in 1958 or 1960. Even after that there were night trains.

 

How many people, other than railway enthusiasts and employees with restricted privilege tickets, ever actually travelled from Manchester to Marylebone is another matter. However, even in pregrouping days the ordinary fare was identical, whichever route was taken, and at some point (not sure when) the tickets became interchangeable between GC/MR/LNWR so you could go one way and back another. Which suggests to me the revenue was pooled in some agreed ratio.

 

(As an aside, "foreign" privilege tickets were apparently restricted for many years, possibly right up to BR. We had family in St. Helens, and remember my grandparent's tales of being "forced" to take the GCR route many times instead of the faster and more direct LNWR one. Given that my grandfather was staunch in his love of the GCR, I also wonder how many "ordinary" passengers ever went that way to St. Helens?)

I think I've read that even in the 1930s, if you had a London-Bristol ticket you could travel by LMS via Birmingham for the same fare.

[Edwardian]

All this post-grouping discussion is getting seriously OT. It would be more instructive to list those towns and cities that were served by a single pre-grouping company only. Apart from places deep in North Eastern Railway territory, I think we'll struggle. Through carriages count as being served by a second company, e.g. Southampton, which saw Midland through carriages from the north via the M&SWJR.

 

EDIT: limited to passenger traffic.

 

If you're counting through coaches, very few I should imagine. Kyle of Lochalsh, perhaps. Some very unlikely routes used to be offered.

 

So, what through coach services might we see at Castle Aching? 

 

Possibly none, as it is not a major destination, but coaches (dual braked, presumably) could come off the GE Lynn-Hunstanton line in the vicinity of Wolferton. 

 

Also coaches, including Midland Railway coaches, could come off the M&GNJ in the vicinity of Great Massingham.  

 

Now, all the West Norfolk's junctions on the southern part of the line are so configured that services must run into Castle Aching and, where travelling onward, there reverse.  This happens in the case of the junction leading to the Bishop's Lynn Tramway (the "Bacon Lettuce & Tomato Line") and the Wolfringham Branch.  In the opposite direction, this is the case with the junction for the Achingham Branch.

 

I do not see why I should not also arrange the junctions with the mainline companies in this way, so that through coaches for the fashionable resort of Birchoverham Next The Sea, run into CA and then head north to their ultimate destination.

 

I foresee a pair of MR Clayton 48' bogie Clerestories (Brake Third and Composite) used in this way in the not too remote future.  It might be fun to see them running behind a WNR locomotive with a quartet of WN 4-wheelers.  From whence on the Midland system might they run, and via what principal stations?  I am considering a suitable roof destination board.

[Nearholmer]

Kent was heavily duplicated between SER and LCDR, like two drunk men punching each other to oblivion, but much of Sussex was solidly LBSCR, apart from the East Sussex resorts, which were served by through trains from the GWR and LNWR. I don't think the through service from Salisbury to Brighton ran until SR days, so both county towns, Lewes and Chichester, were "one company", unless you count the Selsey Tramway, as were several medium sized market towns.

 

I think CA would need a special ingredient to merit through carriages. Does it have wells that produce heavily mineralised water? Or, has it somehow managed to market the freshness of its air, and cultivated a rash of boarding houses and private hotels? It doesn't seem that sort of place to me.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

So, what through coach services might we see at Castle Aching? 

 

I foresee a pair of MR Clayton 48' bogie Clerestories (Brake Third and Composite) used in this way in the not too remote future.  It might be fun to see them running behind a WNR locomotive with a quartet of WN 4-wheelers.  From whence on the Midland system might they run, and via what principal stations?  I am considering a suitable roof destination board.

 

We discussed this point at the end of April - Birmingham via Leicester seems most probable. The Midland wasn't given to big roof-top destination boards like the LNWR and GWR - the only examples I can find are for dining carriages in Scotch or Manchester expresses, and Metropolitan line suburban sets. More generally used were shorter boards that slipped into brackets in the eves panels - I think blue with white lettering and presumably reversible: CASTLE ACHING on one side and BIRMINGHAM on the other.

[Nearholmer]

Ah, I see the plan with reversing services to Birchoverham ...... makes more sense as a destination.

[Killian keane]

I found this while researching Bruntons mechanical travelling engine, might make an interesting cameo model

Edited July 4, 2017 by Killian keane

[runs as required]

Hang on! How Edwardian is "Bacon-letuce-and-tomato" please?

May I suggest a much more plausible destination at Castle Aching might be a nearby shrine to a young Norfolk girl who had an extraordinarily accurate vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary sometime in the 1890s.

[Compound2632]

Hang on! How Edwardian is "Bacon-letuce-and-tomato" please?

May I suggest a much more plausible destination at Castle Aching might be a nearby shrine to a young Norfolk girl who had an extraordinarily accurate vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary sometime in the 1890s.

 

That was covered in April too - picnic saloons.

 

EDIT: sorry, ambiguous response. I was referring to the pilgrim traffic, not what one might be eating for one's picnic in said saloons...

 

EDIT: I don't think west Norfolk in the 1890s had quite the right socio-religio-political context to produce a St Bernadette. What you do have is revival of pilgrimages from the burgeoning Roman and Anglo-Catholic urban centres to a rival national shrine - the Lady Richeldis was one of the earliest recorded Marian visionaries. She was an Anglo-Saxon noblewoman of substance.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

Possibly also through coaches from Kings Cross via Peterborough and the M&GN; less likely via Cambridge.

BTW Cambridge had competing services from London - Liverpool Street for the workers, Kings Cross for the middle classes and St Pancras for the posh. The latter disappeared but even in early BR days there were decent trains by both routes, which I used when commuting in the early 1970s. Only after electrification from KX all the way to Cambridge did the GER route get downgraded.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

Liverpool Street for the workers, Kings Cross for the middle classes and St Pancras for the posh.

 

Nice but possibly too neat. Not sure the workers travelled up to town quite so much. Liverpool Street for the City (business), St Pancras for the West End (pleasure), Kings Cross for... ?

[Northroader]

St. George for England, Kings Cross for Scotland.