Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

King's Cross St Pancras for the Great Eastern Royal Train to Wolferton!

 

 

Liverpool Street for the workers, Kings Cross for the middle classes and St Pancras for the posh.

 

 

Inner for the Rich, Middle for the Poor

Lincoln's for the Scholar, and Gray's for the Bore!

Edited July 4, 2017 by Edwardian

[runs as required]

I found this while researching Bruntons mechanical travelling engine, might make an interesting cameo model

Excuse me! Who is that ruffling around my avatar's nether regions?

Are you actually proposing to build a cameo model of my galloping lever-legs or the structure illustrated? :-)

 

dh

[Nearholmer]

And, if so, why?

 

What is that crumbling pile of masonry, anyway?

 

K

[Nearholmer]

Actually, thinking about it, maybe what CA needs is a giant tower, built by religious fanatics who are convinced that the second-coming is imminent. That would attract excursionists. And, that many-buttressed thing might serve.

 

Did I bore everyone with the crazy tower built near Chatham in the late nineteenth century?

 

K

[Shadow]

Was it by any chance pointy?

[Compound2632]

King's Cross for the Great Eastern Royal Train to Wolferton!

 

That strikes me as curious - St Pancras would, I would have thought, be much better adapted for royal comings and goings and was a regular working for GE enginemen. Or did the train run to Cambridge via Hitchin? I have to confess that most of my rail travel to and from Cambridge was via Kings Cross but that was twenty years ago and more. 

 

I always thought these Hanoverians rather low anyway.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

That strikes me as curious - St Pancras would, I would have thought, be much better adapted for royal comings and goings and was a regular working for GE enginemen. Or did the train run to Cambridge via Hitchin? I have to confess that most of my rail travel to and from Cambridge was via Kings Cross but that was twenty years ago and more. 

 

I always thought these Hanoverians rather low anyway.

 

Sorry, senior moment, it was St Pancras.

 

The point being that it was not Liverpool Street, so as to avoid "certain repetitive ceremonies" undertaken when Royalty entered the City!

[Nearholmer]

Pointy?

 

No, sort of cuboid. Maybe if they'd got the shape right it things might have fared better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezreel%27s_tower

 

K

[wagonman]

St. George for England, Kings Cross for Scotland.

 

 

 

I still prefer the original version...

 

St George for England

St Pancras for Scotland

[Killian keane]

And, if so, why?

 

What is that crumbling pile of masonry, anyway?

 

K

Stac y foel was not just any crumbling pile of masonry, its a very interesting crumbling pile of masonry!

It was a massive sulphur chimney I beleive which stood until the second world war

[corneliuslundie]

Liverpool Street had masses of workmen's services, though they would mostly have come from the inner suburbs.

My comment was based on Gwen Raveratt. She felt that no-one of any class would travel to Cambridge via Liverpool Street. The GER ran services from St Pancras joining the Cambridge line at Tottenham.

I had assumed that the attraction of Castle Aching was a local version of Our Lady of Walsingham - possibly a Catholic version? Though when our grandson was christened at Rudham the Anglican service was so (literally) bells and smells

 that my son in law leaned over to his wife to check that they weren't in the Catholic church by mistake.

Jonathan

Street added to Liverpool for the avoidance of doubt.

Edited July 5, 2017 by corneliuslundie

[Killian keane]

Excuse me! Who is that ruffling around my avatar's nether regions?

Are you actually proposing to build a cameo model of my galloping lever-legs or the structure illustrated? :-)

 

dh

It is I rifling through your shady past!! either dilapidated relic would make for a right interesting model!!

You could have old 'lever legs', complete with its 19th century cleats dumped at the foot of the chimney surrounded by undergrowth!

Edited July 4, 2017 by Killian keane

[Edwardian]

Liverpool had masses of workmen's services, though they would mostly have come from the inner suburbs.

My comment was based on Gwen Raveratt. She felt that no-one of any class would travel to Cambridge via Liverpool Street. The GER ran services from St Pancras joining the Cambridge line at Tottenham.

I had assumed that the attraction of Castle Aching was a local version of Our Lady of Walsingham - possibly a Catholic version? Though when our grandson was christened at Rudham the Anglican service was so (literally) bells and smells

 that my son in law leaned over to his wife to check that they weren't in the Catholic church by mistake.

Jonathan

 

No potpourri!!!

 

Unless it contains Norfolk lavender, of course!

[runs as required]

It is I rifling through your shady past!! either dilapidated relic would make for a right interesting model!!

You could have old 'lever legs', complete with its 19th century cleats dumped at the foot of the chimney surrounded by undergrowth!

If you are thinking about my old 'lever legs', I suggest the challenge would be a Live Steam model at say 5 1/4" gauge.

Then would it be the single cylinder version as originally at Crich with steam admission to either side of the cylinder? Or the one that blew up with the loss of 13 lives while being egged on to go faster than the 30 mph gallop already achieved 202 years ago this month at Newbottle while celebrating the victory at Waterloo. This is said by some to be a twin cylindered version.

(I can justify being this far OT on Edwardian's thread because this took place in the 'land of the Prince Bishops' - though only just - the title being abolished in 1836)

dh

Edited July 5, 2017 by runs as required

[Killian keane]

If you are thinking about my old 'lever legs', I suggest the challenge would be a Live Steam model at say 5 1/4" gauge.

Then would it be the single cylinder version as originally at Crich with steam admission to either side of the cylinder? Or the one that blew up with the loss of 13 lives while being egged on to go faster than the 30 mph gallop already achieved 202 years ago this month at Walbottle while celebrating the victory at Waterloo. This is said by some to be a twin cylindered version.

(I can justify being this far OT on Edwardian's thread because this took place in the 'land of the Prince Bishops' - though only just - the title being abolished in 1836)

dh

We are getting off topic, but might I enquire as to where 5 1/4" gauge comes from? I run a lot of odd old gauges (2 5/8" and gauge 4 (3 1/4")) but never heard of that one Edited July 4, 2017 by Killian keane

[Compound2632]

a local version of Our Lady of Walsingham - possibly a Catholic version?

 

Our Lady appeared to the Lady Richeldis in 1061...

 

As Sellar and Yeatman wilfully mistranslate Pope Gregory the Great: 'not angels but anglicans'.

[runs as required]

We are getting off topic, but might I enquire as to where 5 1/4" gauge comes from? I run a lot of odd old gauges (2 5/8" and gauge 4 (3 1/4")) but never heard of that one

Very sorry, I meant 5" gauge - not only are we well off topic at CA; I'm totally beyond any competence whatever when posting about model engineering.

Like opera singing,and Parkour it is something I realise I shall never be able to do in my lifetime (though I'm still  buying second hand books on it).

dh (over and out)

 

Ed mis-typing

Edited July 5, 2017 by runs as required

[Edwardian]

David, keep working on those top Cs, you never know!

 

On the basis of all the great stuff parishioners have uncovered regarding EOL, I posted a query on the Industrial Railways board here.

 

SIGTECH informs me that there is a photograph in the Middleton Press Ely-Lynnvolume (which I do not have) showing EOL's open wagons and its fireless locomotive!

[wagonman]

David, keep working on those top Cs, you never know!

 

On the basis of all the great stuff parishioners have uncovered regarding EOL, I posted a query on the Industrial Railways board here.

 

SIGTECH informs me that there is a photograph in the Middleton Press Ely-Lynnvolume (which I do not have) showing EOL's open wagons and its fireless locomotive!

 

 

My word, so there is. My copy was on the top shelf – where else would one keep books about the LNER – so it was a bit of a stretch, but there they are. An aerial view shows 16 of them but the ground level view has rather fewer. They are 3 plank dropsides in a grey livery with black ironwork clearly supplied new about 1920 so no use for CA. The photo is rather dark and runs across the page gutter but I could try scanning it if you're interested.

 

 

Richard

 

PS: it's credited to D C Apps collection

Edited July 5, 2017 by wagonman

[Edwardian]

My word, so there is. My copy was on the top shelf – where else would one keep books about the LNER – so it was a bit of a stretch, but there they are. An aerial view shows 16 of them but the ground level view has rather fewer. They are 3 plank dropsides in a grey livery with black ironwork clearly supplied new about 1920 so no use for CA. The photo is rather dark and runs across the page gutter but I could try scanning it if you're interested.

 

 

Richard

 

PS: it's credited to D C Apps collection

 

Richard,

 

Many thanks.

 

If you can, please, provide a scan, I would be very interested. If you need an email, please just PM.

 

What you say does not surprise me; the equipment has to have been supplied at sometime between 1916-1920, so, if new, would be wrong for CA.

 

What is interesting, is the type of equipment employed; fireless loco and drop-side opens.  No tank wagons!

 

This could be for transporting the shale, but, and I must check this, was not the NG line from the open cast works via the mines to the retort plant?  Unless the SG ran from the mine shafts to the retort works, there would be no transportation of shale in SG wagons. 

 

Rather, I think this means the shale oil was to be shipped out in barrels in open wagons.

 

Does that sound right?

 

The quick and easy way for CA to reproduce this sort of traffic would be those Hornby drop-side stone wagons, perhaps with replacement Cambrian Kits Gloucester wooden u/fs (regret not doing that in the case of the Metropolitan Pyramid Company wagon of the same ilk). 

 

The Hornby wagon bodies are 4-plank.  I think Cambrian Kits (cost effective and simple to build) have a Cambrian Rys 2-plank.  A 3-plank option would probably be a 3D print or white-metal kit (more expensive options).

 

EDIT:  To reference EOL, we could have the Hornby drop-sides grey with black iron-work, lettered as "Norfolk Oilfields Limited", which might raise some eyebrows!

 

By c.1920 I assume that we are talking about metal oil drum barrels.  In 1905 they might still be traditional wooden barrels.  Thoughts welcome.

 

EDIT: We can probably discount the idea of a fireless loco.  Andrew Barclay don't seem to have started producing them until 1913, and Bagnall in 1923.  Would an oil-based site, such as a refinery, have employed spark arresters.  Would a barrier wagon be employed?

Edited July 5, 2017 by Edwardian

[Shadow]

There's some discusion about the fireless Loco in that link to the Kings Lynn Forum here

 

I can't get access whilst at work (blocked!! Unacceptable contents!!!) but i seem to remember it was an Andrew Barclay fireless engine that came from the Department of Supplies at Gretna military site.

(From memory AB number No 1105? Not sure about that num!) (D.E.S. 14). One of a batch of 15 (or 14 or 17 dependeing upon site looked at) supplied to DES. It was sold of to an oil company in Scotland, guess it then found it's way to Norfolk!

 

Edit to add :- Is possible that the loco and wagons were used after the Oil company failed, as the area was then used to extract gravel.

 

Edit 2 :- the number was 1554 not 1105!

Dave

Edited July 5, 2017 by Shadow

[Edwardian]

There's some discusion about the fireless Loco in that link to the Kings Lynn Forum here

 

I can't get access whilst at work (blocked!! Unacceptable contents!!!) but i seem to remember it was an Andrew Barclay fireless engine that came from the Department of Supplies at Gretna military site.

(From memory AB number No 1105? Not sure about that num!) (D.E.S. 14). One of a batch of 15 (or 14 or 17 dependeing upon site looked at)  supplied to DES. It was sold of to an oil company in Scotland, guess it then found it's way to Norfolk!

 

 

 

Mental confusion on my part.  I do, indeed, recall reading a somewhat heated, and possibly inconclusive, debate on the King's Lynn forum about this fireless loco. 

 

Why did it come as a surprise then?  Well, I have also been looking into Huntley & Palmers' railway equipment, and was filtering out information about a fireless locomotive supplied to the World's Premier Biscuiteers later than my period of interest. 

 

So, thank you for reminding me.

 

Did the forum discussion lead to a definite conclusion?

 

 

 

Edit to add :- Is possible that the loco and wagons were used after the Oil company failed, as the area was then used to extract gravel.

 

 

 

Hmm, does that open the matter up again?  Do we know the date of the photograph?

 

Of course, a fireless loco would not be necessary for gravel extraction.

 

Further, there are open wagons in the view from the chimney.  Do they look like 3-plank drop-sides?

 

Well, I think, yes, they do.  The lead wagons (with darker interiors) look like 7-plank minerals used to bring coal on the site.  The remaining 16, lighter-coloured, wagons are lower and one is showing the side dropped.  I think these latter are the EOL wagons. 

 

Though they are on a siding that appears to terminate in a gravel pit! 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Edwardian

[Shadow]

Mental confusion on my part.  I do, indeed, recall reading a somewhat heated, and possibly inconclusive, debate on the King's Lynn forum about this fireless loco. 

 

Why did it come as a surprise then?  Well, I have also been looking into Huntley & Palmers' railway equipment, and was filtering out information about a fireless locomotive supplied to the World's Premier Biscuiteers later than my period of interest. 

 

So, thank you for reminding me.

 

Did the forum discussion lead to a definite conclusion?

 

I'll have to go through it again tonight, but I think it was 99.9% sure it was DES14, but it was quite a protracted discussion!

 

Not something that happens on CA. Always short, sweet and to the point on here

[Edwardian]

I'll have to go through it again tonight, but I think it was 99.9% sure it was DES14, but it was quite a protracted discussion!

 

Not something that happens on CA. Always short, sweet and to the point on here

 

Thanks, Dave.  I will too, if I have a moment.

 

In the meantime, please see my ediied post above, which crossed with yours.

[Adams442T]

The standard 42 gallon oil drum (wooden construction) or tierce, was used from the earliest days.  When filled with crude oil, the barrels weighed about 300 lbs, and were then viable to be manhandled by one man.  King Richard III defined a wine puncheon as a barrel holding 84 gallons, and the tierce as one holding 42 gallons.  The Worshipful Company of Coopers produced wooden casks in this size thereafter.

 

U.S. patents weren't issued for steel oil drums until 1902, though a viable barrel wasn't produced until 1904, so its probable that CA wouldn't have seen steel drums until at least 1910, if not until before WW1.  The patent was introduced by the delightfully named, 'Nelly Bly' a determined woman who ran The Iron Clad Manufacturing Company!  These were standardised at 55 gallons, and have the classic 'oil drum' appearance that we accept today as being the norm for oil drums.  The Standard Oil Company took to painting their barrels in blue, though there is some evidence that, from 1866, the wooden barrels were also painted in blue.

 

It was found to be more profitable to ship larger quantities in tanks, still wooden in construction, but the problem of leakage, more prevalent in the larger tanks of course, meant that production of the 'tierces' continued.  One feature of the 42 gallon wooden drum was that it could be rolled on its side with (relative!) ease, and directed where you wanted it to go!

Edited July 5, 2017 by Adams442T