Castle Aching

[Martin S-C]

While we are talking about the GWR, i was recently given some GWR drawings, prints from official originals, including this one. the ideal vehicle for the space starved modeller.

GWR early 3rd class carriage.jpg

I know nothing more about it than the GWR drawing number

Jonathan

Clearly based on the Hornby 4-wheeler.

[Hroth]

Is anything off topic here? A previous Pegg movie Shaun of the Dead was filmed in a redundant pub in New Cross, SE London. This was the sign that greeted me on my way from work nearby - I know I have used it on RMweb - I hope not here. I never saw one though.

Zombie warning 5.03 Monson Rd SE14.jpg

It was, during one of the iterations discussing the Wroxham Zombie Apocalypse of 1909.

 

Even if you didn't see any zombies, the near-experience seems to have made an indelible impression on you!

It must have been their hunger vibes..... 

 

(Page 400, post #9981, 26th May 2018)

[Hroth]

The 'C' is actually a 'G'.  In the pre-grouping era several railway companies made use of a form of 'G' that can be readily mistaken for a 'C'.  The Glasgow & South Western Railway was one example and the Great Eastern Railway was another.  There were other miscreants as well.  Look very closely at the enlarged diagram image and you will soon see that the alleged 'C' is nothing of kind at all.  How do I know this? - spending too much time studying old goods wagon photos in the attempt to get lettering styles correct while making digital pre-grouping models.   

You mean that (when you peer closely at the screen) almost unrecognisable serif on the end of the lower curve of the first initial?

 

Scrooge must have sent out an edict to save ink that week!

[Annie]

Yes exactly that Horth.  For some reason that style of 'G' was popular in the pre-grouping era even though it must've caused a good deal of confusion at times.

[Regularity]

Isn't it great to watch a fight in someone else's back yard that something you said started, but has absolutely nothing to do with you!!

Quite a tame discussion compared to what goes on in your house, though...

[RedGemAlchemist]

Quite a tame discussion compared to what goes on in your house, though...

If it's anything like when my brothers and I get in a room together to play video games it's probably best left off this board...

[corneliuslundie]

I can now report that you are all completely off piste with the origin of that carriage. John Lewis, the HMRS company steward in matters GWR rolling stock, has responded as follows;

"The drawing looks somewhat like the style of the Culm Valley coach illustrated at Russell’s GWR Coaches Part 1 fig 7 (Pg11). That coach was built for the Monmouth Railway & Canal Co. in 1848 by Smith & Wylie. It is said to be 13ft 3in x 7ft 6in x 5ft 10in (body presumably inside height) it had 4 wheels at 7ft 4in wheelbase. It lasted until Dec 1889. It was MR&C No.08 and GWR 3^rd class 1184. GWR 1185/6 (MR&C10 and 12 ) are given as the same dimensions and they lasted until Jan 1890 and .Mar 1888 respectively.

"There were two more which were even closer to the dimensions in the drawing: GWR 1187/8 MR&C 3 and 5..Also built by Smith & Wylie in 1848 they were: said to be 13ft 6in x 7ft 4in x 5ft 10in; 4 wheels, 7ft 4in w/base.  They lasted until Jan 1890. I suspect they also ran on the Culm Valley or some such light railway. I think these last two are the most likely candidates. No more MR&C third class coaches from 1848 survived at the takeover by the GWR."

I should have thought of the Monmouthshire Railway 7 Canal Co.

So now all modellers of the MRCC have an authentic vehicle to model.

Back to CA.

Jonathan

PS Apologies for the occasional lack of capitals but my laptop is playing up. It has also taken a dislike to numbers above 5.

[Talltim]

PS Apologies for the occasional lack of capitals but my laptop is playing up. It has also taken a dislike to numbers above 5.

But does it change G to C?

[Martin S-C]

This conversation is relevant to my interests. Having now run out of "G"s from my Powsides alphabet transfer sheets, I'm reduced to using "C"s on my wagons and adding little serif-y bits to turn them into the letter I need. If I employ the draughtsman responsible for that MRCC coach in my paint shop I can save myself a fair bit of time and eyesight.

Example of early GWR "G".

 

And later.

 

My own shenanigans with the letter "G".

(apologies to Edwardian for the hi-jack and shameless insertion of pics of my own models into this thread)

[Hroth]

But does it change G to C?

Only occasionally when infected by the Enigma virus.

 

Another symptom to look out for is KQOWE FVJPU JUUNU KGLME.....

 

PULB....... 

[Nearholmer]

I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but a look at genuine GWR-period wagon photos, printed material, and general sign writing shows that the serifs on Gs varied hugely, from small, downwards towards barely distinguishable. The good, big, clear serif seems to be quite a modern thing, possibly dating from when it suddenly dawned on people that clarity was more important than style when it came to conveying information. I suspect that a lot of preserved wagons are over-seriffed.

 

This dawning has yet to reach French market-stall holders, I notice; they seem to pride themselves on the sort of florid but unintelligible script traditionally associated with doctors and pharmacists.

[Edwardian]

This conversation is relevant to my interests. Having now run out of "G"s from my Powsides alphabet transfer sheets, I'm reduced to using "C"s on my wagons and adding little serif-y bits to turn them into the letter I need. If I employ the draughtsman responsible for that MRCC coach in my paint shop I can save myself a fair bit of time and eyesight.

 

Example of early GWR "G".

early-G.jpg

 

And later.

later-G.jpg

 

My own shenanigans with the letter "G".

Dsc02297.jpg

Dsc02358.jpg

(apologies to Edwardian for the hi-jack and shameless insertion of pics of my own models into this thread)

 

Very nice, and perfectly welcome, not least in the absence of any progress on my own models. 

[Martin S-C]

I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but a look at genuine GWR-period wagon photos, printed material, and general sign writing shows that the serifs on Gs varied hugely, from small, downwards towards barely distinguishable. The good, big, clear serif seems to be quite a modern thing, possibly dating from when it suddenly dawned on people that clarity was more important than style when it came to conveying information. I suspect that a lot of preserved wagons are over-seriffed.

 

This dawning has yet to reach French market-stall holders, I notice; they seem to pride themselves on the sort of florid but unintelligible script traditionally associated with doctors and pharmacists.

Quite. I never understood why Europeans (I mean the 'other' Europeans) write a numeral 1 as though it's an uppercase A without the horizontal. Something like /\. And why write a perfectly clear "7" and then cross it out?

 

I disagree somewhat on the main point however, plenty of period photos show the GWR (I mention them because I know this company best) moving through about 3 versions of the upper case G. The clarity came in with the enormous 1904 style lettering as well, of course.

 

I find this an interesting study, I suppose it falls under marketing, product promotion and other social psychology headings, but almost all the railway companies began with very small understated lettering and almost all moved to very large lettering at about the same time, in the early 1900s. At a similar time private owner liveries jumped out of nothing (from very understated and simple) to basically mobile advertising hoardings. By the 1930s company lettering tended to get a little smaller again and by WWII was back to very small letters, again almost across the board. I'd find a study of this process - aligned against a timeline of British politics and social habits as well as the growth of road competition - to be a quite fascinating read.

[DonB]

Thanks for all the clarification on title for the Serif in lettering . I should have known (or remembered) that....... I worked briefly for a boss who insisted on using Sans-Serif text on all his company paperwork!

 

Back to the little wagon drawing - Clicking on the drawing produced an enlarged version, clearly showing a tiny downward serif on the letter which I had assumed to lack one. A genuine Red Herring!

 

It did however elicit an observation from Martin S-C  :-Quote:-

 

"I disagree somewhat on the main point however, plenty of period photos show the GWR (I mention them because I know this company best) moving through about 3 versions of the upper case G. The clarity came in with the enormous 1904 style lettering as well, of course.

I find this an interesting study, I suppose it falls under marketing, product promotion and other social psychology headings, but almost all the railway companies began with very small understated lettering and almost all moved to very large lettering at about the same time, in the early 1900s. At a similar time private owner liveries jumped out of nothing (from very understated and simple) to basically mobile advertising hoardings. By the 1930s company lettering tended to get a little smaller again and by WWII was back to very small letters, again almost across the board. I'd find a study of this process - aligned against a timeline of British politics and social habits as well as the growth of road competition - to be a quite fascinating read."

 

Pick your university and tutor carefully - There's probably a PHD  waiting to be gained here !!! 

[Hroth]

"Back to the little wagon drawing - Clicking on the drawing produced an enlarged version, clearly showing a tiny downward serif on the letter which I had assumed to lack one. A genuine Red Herring!"

 

I didn't try that!  Doh!!!

 

If you look closely at the expanded image, the upper arm of the "G" has a flattened serif too, making it look like a G clamp....

 

 

(without the screw, naturally)

Edited November 5, 2018 by Hroth

[Nearholmer]

Cramp.

 

(Deliberately provoking pointless discussion of regional and temporal variations in usage.)

[wagonman]

Pedants Corner: the crossbar on a capital 'G' is not a serif.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Cramp.

No, clamp. Get your gob looked at, sounds like you have an infection.

Edited November 5, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Martin S-C]

...or a muscular seizure.

[Nick Holliday]

Pedants Corner: the crossbar on a capital 'G' is not a serif.

Never heard of it before, but it seems it's a barb.

[Martin S-C]

So the "tail" below the chin and spur is a part of a serif font?

 

 

I adore railway modelling because it drags you kicking and screaming into such a vast unexpected ocean of other subjects.

 

EDIT: Though I notice in this example that the barb does not appear to have a serif.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Compound2632]

Much of this anxiety can be avoided by modelling a railway that doesn't have a G in its title.

[Edwardian]

I think that the best that can be said for my horse 'bus build for Lancaster is that it was good modelling practice, and made something out of a broken kit that was otherwise doomed to be discarded. . Eventually I wrestled the various broken and defective pieces into something passable and I'm now declaring it finished.

 

It is the only modelling done in the last week or two, and it also woke the brain up. 

 

While I have finished it in established GW vehicle colours, the prototype upon which I take the kit to be based was out-shopped in a darker scheme.  The vehicle was photographed ex-works in 1894. I interpret it as having a lower body in a dark colour, which I would guess to be coach brown, and upper portions I suspect are black, much in the way the upper portions of private and stage coaches used to be.  The was also a long vent , like a railway coach door vent, running across the top of the twin side windows.  This was in a pale colour; perhaps a pale varnished wood?

 

I have never seen the kit finished in this way, though I have seen plenty adorning layouts in the chocolate and cream scheme that I have followed.

 

If I build my kit, I will go for this original livery.  However, the experience of building this kit has made me wonder whether a layered plasticard approach wound be more suitable for the body.

 

I have long since decided that the WNR should have a similar vehicle, so watch this space.

[Hroth]

I think that the best that can be said for my horse 'bus build for Lancaster is that it was good modelling practice, and made something out of a broken kit that was otherwise doomed to be discarded. . Eventually I wrestled the various broken and defective pieces into something passable and I'm now declaring it finished.

 

It is the only modelling done in the last week or two, and it also woke the brain up. 

 

While I have finished it in established GW vehicle colours, the prototype upon which I take the kit to be based was out-shopped in a darker scheme.  The vehicle was photographed ex-works in 1894. I interpret it as having a lower body in a dark colour, which I would guess to be coach brown, and upper portions I suspect are black, much in the way the upper portions of private and stage coaches used to be.  The was also a long vent , like a railway coach door vent, running across the top of the twin side windows.  This was in a pale colour; perhaps a pale varnished wood?

 

I have never seen the kit finished in this way, though I have seen plenty adorning layouts in the chocolate and cream scheme that I have followed.

 

If I build my kit, I will go for this original livery.  However, the experience of building this kit has made me wonder whether a layered plasticard approach wound be more suitable for the body.

 

I have long since decided that the WNR should have a similar vehicle, so watch this space.

His name was Ernieeeee!!!!!

And he drove the fastest milkcart in the East!

 

Apart from that, very nice!

[sem34090]

"Would you loike it pasturoised, cuz pasturoised is best..."