Castle Aching

[corneliuslundie]

Despite the time spent browsing this thread, i have managed to do some modelling. four wagon kits have been completed and two are well on the way. 

One of them is significant in my modelling career. It may only be another GWR Iron Mink but it is my first attempt at using low melting point solder instead of glue for such things. It has only taken me half a century - and four years since I bought the temperature controlled soldering iron, to be brave enough to try.

Of course with a van one's untidiness is hidden inside. So the next step has been two mineral wagons, lovely little dumb buffered wagons from Five & Nine models. So not only now have I soldered the four parts of the bodies together but I have sweated on the axleguard/axlebox castings. OK, one is slightly crooked, but I can manage than when using superglue.

And the other rather esoteric bit has been building an eighteen inch long test track in 31.2 mm gauge. Our next club layout will be built generally to 7 mm fine scale standards but there is an awful lot of slop both in the axleboxes and in the gauge which makes us worried about using Dingham couplings. So following the example of the Arun Quay layout we thought we would check out 31.2 mm which is what is used on that layout. Just as well we did as last night it was found hat the Dapol Terrier does not really fit a gauge that tight, probably by about 0.2 mm. so the next job is to tweak the test track to 31.5 mm and try again. By the way like most things this is not a new idea, having been discussed years ago in MRJ.

And duly reprimanded for re-raising the subject of saloons. The only reason is that I have some rather nice drawings of early GWR ones until they go to the HMRS at Butterley. Some by the way, though not classed as Invalid Saloons (whatever your interpretation of Invalid), had provision for suspending a bed for transporting an invalid. Something which might be hard to model at 4 mm/ft.

Jonathan 

PS sorry to be so on-topic AGAIN and not including a photo of our Jenny

Edited December 21, 2018 by corneliuslundie

[Edwardian]

That drill hall just gets better.

 

For some reason, today it puts me in mind of a particularly clever Christmas cake.

 

I suppose that means that I'll have to fit interior lighting at some point ... 

[Compound2632]

Please excuse this reversion to a subject touched on a day or so ago.

The tenders for all the Rainhill competitors were built in Liverpool by one Nathaniel Worsdell, the father (possibly grandfather) of T.W and Wilson Worsdell.

 

I have found occasional references to a book about the Worsdell family, but have not discovered more. I wonder if anyone on this beautifully eclectic forum knows more?

 

I hope no-one will mind this polite intrusion into the simple agricultural idylls of North and East Anglia from the lands of the mighty NER at the Edwardian height of it's commercial and technical supremacy.

 

 

Geoffrey Hill, The Worsdells: a Quaker Engineering Dynasty (The Transport Publishing Company, 1991) ISBN 86317 158 3.

 

I bought a copy second hand for £10 in 2012. 

 

Thomas Clarke Worsdell (1788-1862) had established himself as a road coach builder in Lancaster by the mid 1820s, moving to Liverpool in 1827. There he and George Stephenson were introduced by James Cropper, a L&M director who was also a Quaker. Thomas' eldest son, Nathaniel Worsdell (1809-1886, father of T.W. and Wilson), recalled the first discussions about railway carriages in 1828: 'Stephenson said to my father and myself, "Come to tea; and after it we will talk over the railway carriage". We did so...'

 

Soon after this, T.C. Worsdell was appointed Superintendent of Coaching for the L&M and had built up a substantial fleet of carriages - enough for the seven trains on the opening day, though the Duke of Wellington's carriage was built by another firm on an underframe supplied by Worsdell; presumably the company's Crown Street works was too busy to deal with a one-off special. The replica first and second class carriages built for the centenary of the L&M and now at York represent his designs. He was also responsible for the design and construction of goods wagons and the first horseboxes, establishing the basic design of side flap lowering to form a ramp and padded interior that was never deviated from in the following 120 years.

 

As L&M Superintendent of Coaching and with Rocket being the in-house entry at Rainhill, it's not surprising to find that he was responsible for the tender. 

 

Nathaniel served the L&M and LNW for 52 years; his two sons received their engineering training at Crewe, T.W. becoming F.W. Webb's Works Manager, after a stint at Altoona in a similar post for the Pennsylvania Railroad (more Quaker connections). Mention of the brothers Worsdell is far from being off-topic for the WNR, as T.W. was Locomotive Superintendent of the Great Eastern before moving to the North Eastern - a career that must have been rather frustrating for young Wilson, who had taken the post of Chief Draughtsman at Stratford to get away from Crewe, only to find his elder brother appointed his boss. He then moved to work for Fletcher at Gateshead, where of course history repeated itself...

Edited December 21, 2018 by Compound2632

[Hroth]

That drill hall just gets better.

 

For some reason, today it puts me in mind of a particularly clever Christmas cake.

 

One year, when very young, we had a Christmas table decoration in the shape of a "castle", 4 square with turrets at the corners, a gatehouse and keep, all in the best Woolies cardboard. The turrets, etc had small gifts, hats and mottos in them, it was a bit of a change to the usual Christmas crackers!

 

Afterwards, we used it as a toy fort until it eventually fell to bits.

[Hroth]

...

Now, back to the season of good Will towards everybody.

 

Kevin

 

The only Good Will is one entirely in your favour....

 

 

(Don't mind me, I'm only waiting for the Gasman to cometh)

(as it were)

(

)

[Edwardian]

 

I hope no-one will mind this polite intrusion into the simple agricultural idylls of North and East Anglia from the lands of the mighty NER at the Edwardian height of it's commercial and technical supremacy.

 

 

 

Well, I live in the lands of the mighty NER, so feel free ....!

[RedGemAlchemist]

I suppose that means that I'll have to fit interior lighting at some point ...

Interior lighting on a cake? How droll.

[Martin S-C]

Brilliant!

 

And you've beaten me to it in getting a WNR wagon in service!

 

Yes, the WNR starts here, on Annie's virtual layout. 

 

It will serve as inspiration.

 

Stock building is on the list, but I am haunted by the fear of unfinished projects and feel obliged to put the Drill Hall to bed.

 

Good progress has been made with the current section, so I should be able to move onto the hall section once all the Christmas preparation and work is dealt with. 

The drill hall is looking magnificent.

 

Is Annie's take on the WNR wagon livery close to your plans for it James? I didn't know that you'd mentioned what the livery would be and was wondering how you selected it, Annie.

[sem34090]

The only Good Will is one entirely in your favour....

 

 

(Don't mind me, I'm only waiting for the Gasman to cometh)

(as it were)

(

)

Always good to listen to that again.

[Regularity]

I haven’t done any modelling (well, apart from the exquisite little chiffon number for Saturday evenings... ) but I have done some acquiring, to the tune of a whole layout plus locos and stock: Lydham Heath, to be precise.

 

Not sure if I should mention it here: after all, “buying = modelling” is a more common mindset outside of this forum, and the layout is definitely set post 1924 due to the modelled condition of Carlisle, yet the real Bishop’s Castle Railway was never grouped (and is therefore neither pre- nor post- grouping... ) But absent a “light and independent railways” forum, this seems the best place for mentioning it.

 

It needs some minor attention and titivating*, but my aim is to take it out on the road a few times a year, to promote both the BCR and S Scale, and their respective societies. As it happens, I already have some suitable additional rolling stock built over the years, which is a bonus, but I shall gave to grit my teeth and build half a dozen cattle wagons at some point in time.

 

No photos just yet, as I am have to undertake a serious episode of my main hobby: rearranging the “railway room” (aka garage) to accommodate the layout. It’s not the length, but the width (fnarr, fnarr)…

 

*Edit: it is, after all, 30 years old!

Edited December 21, 2018 by Regularity

[Nearholmer]

Well, if you are going to buy a layout, why not buy a very good one? which you did.

[sem34090]

I haven’t done any modelling (well, apart from the exquisite little chiffon number for Saturday evenings... ) but I have done some acquiring, to the tune of a whole layout plus locos and stock: Lydham Heath, to be precise.

 

Not sure if I should mention it here: after all, “buying = modelling” is a more common mindset outside of this forum, and the layout is definitely set post 1924 due to the modelled condition of Carlisle, yet the real Bishop’s Castle Railway was never grouped (and is therefore neither pre- nor post- grouping... ) But absent a “light and independent railways” forum, this seems the best place for mentioning it.

 

It needs some minor attention and titivating*, but my aim is to take it out on the road a few times a year, to promote both the BCR and S Scale, and their respective societies. As it happens, I already have some suitable additional rolling stock built over the years, which is a bonus, but I shall gave to grit my teeth and build half a dozen cattle wagons at some point in time.

 

No photos just yet, as I am have to undertake a serious episode of my main hobby: rearranging the “railway room” (aka garage) to accommodate the layout. It’s not the length, but the width (fnarr, fnarr)…

 

*Edit: it is, after all, 30 years old!

Firstly, I have no desire to visualise you in chiffon...

 

Although the layout isn't yours to start with it will become 'yours' as you titivate and improve it. If one is buying a layout then they are almost always going to make their own mark on it, as I'm intending to do with an Indian 009 layout that I'm Anglicising.

[Edwardian]

The drill hall is looking magnificent.

 

Is Annie's take on the WNR wagon livery close to your plans for it James? I didn't know that you'd mentioned what the livery would be and was wondering how you selected it, Annie.

 

I am thinking of 2 1880s-1890s 'standard' designs for open merchandise wagons, 4-plank, evolved into a 5-plank, both with wooden underframes, so Annie's choice seems entirely appropriate to me.

 

In 1905 we see plenty of company liveries with small lettering, and, so, yes, I plan to have small "W N R" lettering to the lower left of the sides.  I don't know whether I specified the position or this is Annie cleverly working out what was appropriate.

 

I really do need to organise some transfers, but was thinking in terms of white letters shaded black and I might introduce full stops between the letters:  W. N. R.

 

This example was applied using HMRS Private Owner alphabet.  There just won't be enough letters on a sheet for the numbers of wagons required.    

 

I really must sort out some wagons over Christmas.

[Edwardian]

Discussion of East Anglian traffic for Annie's Hopewood Tramway, and her excellent fish oil plant, prompted me to summarise what we have arrived at so far for the WNR: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131654-virtual-pre-grouping/?p=3405925.

 

That really is a lovely factory!

 

Anyway, I mentioned eggs.  I enjoyed the earlier discussion of the National Poultry chaps, and I do intend to provide for egg producers. The was an egg dépôt at Fakenham, here pictured in 1904, and I imagine that there was an exactly similar one at Achingham. 

 

 

[Talltim]

I haven’t done any modelling (well, apart from the exquisite little chiffon number for Saturday evenings... ) but I have done some acquiring, to the tune of a whole layout plus locos and stock: Lydham Heath, to be precise.

 

Not sure if I should mention it here: after all, “buying = modelling” is a more common mindset outside of this forum, and the layout is definitely set post 1924 due to the modelled condition of Carlisle, yet the real Bishop’s Castle Railway was never grouped (and is therefore neither pre- nor post- grouping... ) But absent a “light and independent railways” forum, this seems the best place for mentioning it.

 

It needs some minor attention and titivating*, but my aim is to take it out on the road a few times a year, to promote both the BCR and S Scale, and their respective societies. As it happens, I already have some suitable additional rolling stock built over the years, which is a bonus, but I shall gave to grit my teeth and build half a dozen cattle wagons at some point in time.

 

No photos just yet, as I am have to undertake a serious episode of my main hobby: rearranging the “railway room” (aka garage) to accommodate the layout. It’s not the length, but the width (fnarr, fnarr)…

 

*Edit: it is, after all, 30 years old!

It’s a small world, last time I saw CorneliusLundie he had the stock! The six wheeled coach might need a bit of work to go round the curves

[TheQ]

Discussion of East Anglian traffic for Annie's Hopewood Tramway, and her excellent fish oil plant, prompted me to summarise what we have arrived at so far for the WNR: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131654-virtual-pre-grouping/?p=3405925.

 

That really is a lovely factory!

 

Anyway, I mentioned eggs.  I enjoyed the earlier discussion of the National Poultry chaps, and I do intend to provide for egg producers. The was an egg dépôt at Fakenham, here pictured in 1904, and I imagine that there was an exactly similar one at Achingham. 

 

That building looks like a kitbashed tin tabernacle...

[Annie]

I am thinking of 2 1880s-1890s 'standard' designs for open merchandise wagons, 4-plank, evolved into a 5-plank, both with wooden underframes, so Annie's choice seems entirely appropriate to me.

 

In 1905 we see plenty of company liveries with small lettering, and, so, yes, I plan to have small "W N R" lettering to the lower left of the sides.  I don't know whether I specified the position or this is Annie cleverly working out what was appropriate.

 

I really do need to organise some transfers, but was thinking in terms of white letters shaded black and I might introduce full stops between the letters:  W. N. R.

 

This example was applied using HMRS Private Owner alphabet.  There just won't be enough letters on a sheet for the numbers of wagons required.    

 

I really must sort out some wagons over Christmas.

Waaaaaaay back at the beginning of this thread James you posted some pictures of  K's (I think) white metal MR wagons in WNR livery and lettering so I took those as a guide for putting together my own version.  Having already done some GER 5 plankers with the same kind of lettering style I sort of just worked things from there.  I did choose a body mesh of the transitional lower sided 4 plank later converted to 5 plank type though instead of the one I used for the GER 5 plankers.  The wooden underframe could be set up with a variety of brake types so I fitted brakes to just one side bearing in mind the likely build date.  Taking the MR as being the source of a second hand wagon purchase by the WNR I fitted a MR Derby build plate from my collection of wagon plate images to the solebars.

 

I will confess though that I tried both 'W.N.R.' and 'W N R' on the sides of the wagon before settling on 'W N R', but only because the wagons in the photo James had posted were lettered that way.

[Edwardian]

Waaaaaaay back at the beginning of this thread James you posted some pictures of  K's (I think) white metal MR wagons in WNR livery and lettering so I took those as a guide for putting together my own version.  Having already done some GER 5 plankers with the same kind of lettering style I sort of just worked things from there.  I did choose a body mesh of the transitional lower sided 4 plank later converted to 5 plank type though instead of the one I used for the GER 5 plankers.  The wooden underframe could be set up with a variety of brake types so I fitted brakes to just one side bearing in mind the likely build date.  Taking the MR as being the source of a second hand wagon purchase by the WNR I fitted a MR Derby build plate from my collection of wagon plate images to the solebars.

 

I will confess though that I tried both 'W.N.R.' and 'W N R' on the sides of the wagon before settling on 'W N R', but only because the wagons in the photo James had posted were lettered that way.

 

I am conscious that I have yet to set the 'standard' for WNR wagon design and lettering.  Perhaps this holiday ....

 

You have clearly done your prototype research, however!

[drmditch]

Geoffrey Hill, The Worsdells: a Quaker Engineering Dynasty (The Transport Publishing Company, 1991) ISBN 86317 158 3.

 

I bought a copy second hand for £10 in 2012. 

 

Thomas Clarke Worsdell (1788-1862) had established himself as a road coach builder in Lancaster by the mid 1820s, moving to Liverpool in 1827. There he and George Stephenson were introduced by James Cropper, a L&M director who was also a Quaker. Thomas' eldest son, Nathaniel Worsdell (1809-1886, father of T.W. and Wilson), recalled the first discussions about railway carriages in 1828: 'Stephenson said to my father and myself, "Come to tea; and after it we will talk over the railway carriage". We did so...'

 

Soon after this, T.C. Worsdell was appointed Superintendent of Coaching for the L&M and had built up a substantial fleet of carriages - enough for the seven trains on the opening day, though the Duke of Wellington's carriage was built by another firm on an underframe supplied by Worsdell; presumably the company's Crown Street works was too busy to deal with a one-off special. The replica first and second class carriages built for the centenary of the L&M and now at York represent his designs. He was also responsible for the design and construction of goods wagons and the first horseboxes, establishing the basic design of side flap lowering to form a ramp and padded interior that was never deviated from in the following 120 years.

 

As L&M Superintendent of Coaching and with Rocket being the in-house entry at Rainhill, it's not surprising to find that he was responsible for the tender. 

 

Nathaniel served the L&M and LNW for 52 years; his two sons received their engineering training at Crewe, T.W. becoming F.W. Webb's Works Manager, after a stint at Altoona in a similar post for the Pennsylvania Railroad (more Quaker connections). Mention of the brothers Worsdell is far from being off-topic for the WNR, as T.W. was Locomotive Superintendent of the Great Eastern before moving to the North Eastern - a career that must have been rather frustrating for young Wilson, who had taken the post of Chief Draughtsman at Stratford to get away from Crewe, only to find his elder brother appointed his boss. He then moved to work for Fletcher at Gateshead, where of course history repeated itself...

 

Many thanks. There is a copy of the book on Amazon. A 'self present' beckons!

 

I will be interested to find more about the effect on Wilson of the snowplough accident in 1888, in which he sustained a badly broken leg. In later years at least one of his staff regarded him as lazy, because he didn't walk about Gateshead Works that much. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by drmditch

[Compound2632]

Discussion of East Anglian traffic for Annie's Hopewood Tramway, and her excellent fish oil plant, prompted me to summarise what we have arrived at so far for the WNR: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131654-virtual-pre-grouping/?p=3405925.

 

That really is a lovely factory!

 

Anyway, I mentioned eggs.  I enjoyed the earlier discussion of the National Poultry chaps, and I do intend to provide for egg producers. The was an egg dépôt at Fakenham, here pictured in 1904, and I imagine that there was an exactly similar one at Achingham. 

 

The rounded end of one PO wagon and the end of another - BOO... - to its right. Uncoupled - note both couplings hanging down.

[Edwardian]

The rounded end of one PO wagon and the end of another - BOO... - to its right. Uncoupled - note both couplings hanging down.

 

The GER would probably still have some (upgraded) rounded end wagons in service, as they built these up to 1880s.  I have planned for one.

 

I wonder if that is what we are seeing? 

 

I note that the radius of the curved end seems a lot shallower than the GE examples below.

 

And I wonder who "BOO ..." is?

Edited December 21, 2018 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

I think the ends are on a shallower arc than that GER wagon (upgraded, you say?)* - and BOO... looks to be a five-plank wagon; there's a 9 on the bottom plank, BOO on the top two planks, and space for two planks between. The Lightmoor PO wagons index lists Booth & Fosdick, Booth & Mitchell, and William Henry Booth, all of Ipswich - probably the same Booth with different partners or none at different times. Need a complete set of PO wagon picture books!

 

Fakenham & eggs... an English Milord travelling in Bohemia could order "hem en eggs" in suitably stragulated upper-class tones; the word has passed into the Czech language (or at least Czech menus) as "hemenex".

 

*In responce to Edwardian's edit, which one is the upgraded one? No. 9149 with the extra wooden framing has cast iron brake blocks - suggestive of modernity. The self-contained buffers hint at a conversion from a dumb-buffered wagon. No. 13513 has corner straps rather than corner plates - a real throwback. It side-knees are exposed - shocking - later practice was to have them on the inside with just a washer plate on the outside. The construction of the wheels is a little unusual, too.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

As Talltim says, for a while I had the Lydham Heath stock with a view to doing some titivating. The aspects needing work were adjusting the couplings - Alex Jacksons without the droppers, so manual only; tidying up on the smokebox of Carlisle to hide the glue from when the chimney fell off some time before its last outing; and as Tim says getting the ex-LSWR carriage to go round the curve onto the branch. Only later did I discover that it never did, even when Barry Norman first built it. 

By the way, for those who haven't seen the layout at shows, the whole set of stock goes in a shoebox with room to spare.

I assume that by now Regularity has discovered the interesting electrical connection between the main board and the fiddle yard.

And if you can't get the carriage round the curve, I suggest that what is needed is am model of the BCR bus to provide a rail replacement service.

Re the cattle wagons, I assume that you will have to scratch build. They are similar but not the same as the earlier design of MR cattle wagon available in 7 mm from Slaters - different planking arrangements. 

But probably enough about the BCR here as it makes the WNR look like a serious main line. Feel free to contact me direct if you think I can provide any useful information.

Jonathan

PS How about W.N.R without the final full stop?

[Annie]

Now those GER wagons are lovely.  Pity I can't make anything like that without some help from someone to create the 3D meshes for me.

 

 

 

PS How about W.N.R without the final full stop?

I say, - that's a bit racy.  Not sure if that's the proper thing at all.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Annie

[Compound2632]

PS How about W.N.R without the final full stop?

 

Nah, that's a bit too G.W.R