Castle Aching

[sem34090]

Indeed.

 

Incidentally, it's a little-known fact that the LBSCR used 4ft 1 1/2ins gauge track for it's branch line to Blackstone...

[wagonman]

The Redruth and Chasewater (and i think the Saundersfoot Rly) used 4ft gauge throughout. The Lee Moor Tramway, however, was EM gauge.

 

 

[sem34090]

The Padarn was another 4ft one. I once contemplated modelling it (3D Printed Hunslet 0-6-0T bodies on Electrotren Chassis - Didn't think about doing Fire Queen and Jenny Lind) in 4mm just so that, if someone came up to me at a show and started going on about how much more accurate it would be in P4 I would be in the right!  

[Compound2632]

Dear me.  I really shouldn't have mentioned that church, it was the dumb-buffered wagons that had really piqued my curiosity. That and the 14th-century S-scale dragon modelling.

[Regularity]

34 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

The Padarn was another 4ft one. I once contemplated modelling it (3D Printed Hunslet 0-6-0T bodies on Electrotren Chassis - Didn't think about doing Fire Queen and Jenny Lind) in 4mm just so that, if someone came up to me at a show and started going on about how much more accurate it would be in P4 I would be in the right!  

Given the amount of excess play in OO, you could probably reduce the gauge to 16mm and improve the running!

 

[DonB]

2 hours ago, sem34090 said:

For my own part I'm the sort who is able to interpret descriptions of bell codes in a lewd fashion- 

Or maybe just a crude fashion.

 

As if the standards around here weren't low enough already!

 

That's now making me imagine a Narrow Gauge BR Standard 2 Tank...

 

 

There was a proposal to model a fictitious NG line into Ullapool in (I think) the late 1960s /early 1970s.

A range of heavy duty locos was proposed and side elevation sketches drawn which seemed  to me to be heavily influenced by the BR standard classes.  and featured in (Again ,I think ,) the MRN .

The proposed layout did not appear in the three magazines of the day.

Regret that I can't be more precise, I no longer have my Magazine archive !

[brack]

AJ Powell, the 264t drawing was reprinted in narrow lines a few years back. he had an o-16.5 model built for him and there was a photo of it.

Given his training, experience and employment it isn't surprising that there was significant br standard design influence.

[Hair_Dave]

I stumbled across this and thought of you James, part way through you see Derwent in steam

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-official-film-of-the-railway-centenary-1925-online

[Pacific231G]

On 20/08/2019 at 12:49, Edwardian said:

 

Thanks, Andy.

 

A long, rambling, thread, I know, but I think we are at cross purposes.  There is no intention to plonk a tramway on Purfleet Quay or anywhere in King's Lynn.  The terminus is at Bishop's Lynn, which naturally bears some resemblance to its southern neighbour. I commend This Explanation

 

Purfleet is Visual inspiration only. 

 

However, in plotting a course narrowly through the streets of the real King's Lynn, you illustrate perfectly the sort of line that would result from taking a tramway from the riverfront inland through a cramped mediaeval townscape!

Just how common WAS street running to connect docks with the rest of the railway network ? I know Weymouth of course as well as plenty of quays with inset track but I can't think of many others where a tramway connected quays with the railway system and would like to as it's an attractive feature to model.  

I did get to see the "tramway" that connected the Western and Eastern docks in Southampton in action. This was an extension of the line that connected the Town and Royal Piers with the original (Eastern) Docks but my memory is that, though not actually fenced off, it was somewhat separated from the public road though it did run across the roadways leading to the piers.

Street running was more common in other countries, especially North America, and there were a few in France- notably the  one that, though disused, still AFAIK runs down one of Granville's main streets to reach the port. Even that though was unusual enough to be noteworthy.

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Hair_Dave said:

I stumbled across this and thought of you James, part way through you see Derwent in steam

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-official-film-of-the-railway-centenary-1925-online

 

A magnificent film I'd not seen before.  It was fascinating to see the future George VI and the Queen Mother as a young couple.  There is a very informal, un-choreographed feel to the filming.  people fuss, casually walk across shot, Plod keeps getting in the way and at one point some angry official seems to be shooing the film crew away!

 

The cavalcade was great to see, including, as you say, Derwent. 

 

Thank you.

 

18 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Just how common WAS street running to connect docks with the rest of the railway network ? I know Weymouth of course as well as plenty of quays with inset track but I can't think of many others where a tramway connected quays with the railway system and would like to as it's an attractive feature to model.  

I did get to see the "tramway" that connected the Western and Eastern docks in Southampton in action. This was an extension of the line that connected the Town and Royal Piers with the original (Eastern) Docks but my memory is that, though not actually fenced off, it was somewhat separated from the public road though it did run across the roadways leading to the piers.

Street running was more common in other countries, especially North America, and there were a few in France- notably the  one that, though disused, still AFAIK runs down one of Granville's main streets to reach the port. Even that though was unusual enough to be noteworthy.

 

We are talking of two different things here, and it might be as well to separate them out to avoid confusion.

 

First the tramway.  This is a tramway because it was built as such, Wisbech & Upwell style, along roads in the countryside east of Bishop's Lynn, running to a junction with the West Norfolk at Aching Constable. As a late addition (1885), it must try to squeeze into Bishop's Lynn and find space for a terminus, but the fact that it is a tramway helps it here, because it can run through the streets.

 

Second, we are looking at a GER goods harbour branch.  On reflection, as I've said, this should make a wide circuit of Bishop's Lynn before swinging round to the docks, rather like the real GER harbour branch, of which this is conceived as an extension, did at the real (King's) Lynn.  Here I think street running is to be avoided.  It is a conventional railway until it reaches the docks.  As I understand it, operating within the confines of the docks is not public street running and locomotives would, thus, not need to be skirted.  IIRC, GER C53s ran without skirts at dock locations such as Ipswich.  

 

I don't have to model the harbour branch at all, and, indeed, it may be difficult to fit both the tramway terminus and a portion of the docks.  There should be a connection between the two systems, however, and it would be good to model that and to suggest something of the docks themselves, but we'll see.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling

[Nearholmer]

Bits of railway straggling- off down the street to wharves was by no means uncommon. Somewhere on here there is a thread showing several good examples around the south coast and in the very unlikely event that I can find it, I will post a link.

 

This situation tended to arise where the harbour/wharves pre-dated the railway, which didn’t have much choice about how to gain access. Later harbours, often built specifically with railway access in mind, tended to be a bit out of town, with ordinary, and much more efficient, railway links.

 

Here are some des res’s in Nile Row, Poole, Dorset, with the railway to the town quay passing the front doors.

 

Somewhere, I found a photo further along this line, which showed just how incredibly narrow the very old (medieval I think) streets were in places.

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Nearholmer

[geoff_nicholls]

54 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Just how common WAS street running to connect docks with the rest of the railway network

and how much of it was loco hauled? My guess is much less than is modeled.

Great Yarmouth was a good example though, there are photos of 04s and Y10s hauled wagons along the road, which also implies Y6s and J70s.  The line to the Fish Quay ran parallel to the Council Tramway (3' 6" gauge) The former crossed the latter to enter the brewery, the trams crossed the std gauge to reach the station forecourt.

[Nearholmer]

Poole certainly was, ditto Newhaven West Quay, ditto the line down the road to the victualling depot off of the Deptford Wharf Branch, and multiple other examples.

 

I don’t think one need hesitate to put a railway down a road near an old harbour, and one needn’t worry about the engines wearing skirts, because all of the examples on the erstwhile SR were worked by locos with naked wheels.

 

Incidentally, a fair few photos on-line are miss-captioned, showing Poole when they claim to be Weymouth, and I think that Madderport was probably inspired as much by Poole as anywhere else.

 

Poole also provides a good waterfront traffic source that I think applied elsewhere (Norwich?), in that the coal merchant originally received his wares by sea, and had a big secure coal store, like a sort of low warehouse, on the quay, which was later provisioned by rail, with PO wagons being unloaded to delivery carts, in railway goods yard manner, in the middle of the road.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

Just how common WAS street running to connect docks with the rest of the railway network ?

 

I don't know about that, but there are instances of dock railways (that connected with the national network) running along public roads.  Here's one of part of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board line running along the Strand (the road along the docks) underneath the Liverpool Overhead Railway. 

 

 

It was this that caused the corrosion to the LOR structure that was too expensive to repair and resulted in the closure of the LOR in 1956.

(A L&Y Pug adding its contribution...)

 

[Nearholmer]

Pubs are an essential for harbour tramways. Here is a lovely photo of a Terrier outside a pub in Newhaven. https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p586684902/h5F9CF4FA

 

And, the postcard below shows exactly where my Uncle Wilf used to park the Dormobile van outside the Hope Inn. We, my brothers and cousins, used to get lemonade and a packet of crisps, while the grown-ups had something stronger. Never saw a loco here, it always being Sunday or Bank Holiday, but did used to see railway wagons parked seemingly at random.

 

 

[Donw]

In a lot of cases the land probably belonged to the Dock or Railway company but was not fenced off to prevent public access. Wells Next the Sea might be a case in point Bristol Docks  may be another. Proper Tramway's where the railway ran alonside a public highway are much rarer.

 

Don

[Nearholmer]

As ever, Poole-obsessed, because it was such a wonderful example.

 

Further down the street, timber yard on the left, houses on the right, main station ahead, quay to our rear.

 

This was opened in 1874, and the last steam locos on it were B4 tanks, which might only be 0-4-0T, but are big ones, especially in the road!

 

 

 

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Pubs are an essential for harbour tramways. Here is a lovely photo of a Terrier outside a pub in Newhaven. https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p586684902/h5F9CF4FA

 

And, the postcard below shows exactly where my Uncle Wilf used to park the Dormobile van outside the Hope Inn. We, my brothers and cousins, used to get lemonade and a packet of crisps, while the grown-ups had something stronger. Never saw a loco here, it always being Sunday or Bank Holiday, but did used to see railway wagons parked seemingly at random.

 

 

Shortly after the West Quay branch left the main Lewes to Seaford line, north of Newhaven Town Station, the railway shared the former swing bridge with the A259, running on inset tracks. The swing bridge also carried a gas main which had to be shut off whenever the bridge opened. It was a fairly short section of the branch where the tracks were inset.

Further down the line near the Hope Inn there may have been areas with inset tracks, judging by the mix of roads and rails, but I haven't seen any photos of that area with inset tracks. There are pictures of trains on the swing bridge in Paul O'Callaghan's East Sussex Coastal Railways, volume 2. 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, Newhaven West Quay was an unusual case, in that it was built to allow access for construction of the west breakwater, and it ran mainly on what were fairly rough and ready wharves and bits of open ground when it first opened. The earlier tramway from the Meeching Quarry crosses it on the level I think. 

 

The metalled road south from near the swing bridge came later, and I think went down  the back of the warehouses, shacks, tarpaulin factory etc that had sprung-up, so the tramway was between the metalled road and the waterside, although numerous access-ways crossed it.

 

I was amazed by how posh the area has now become when I cycled through a few weeks ago, lots of rather nice flats and town-houses where once was fascinating grot.

[St Enodoc]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, Newhaven West Quay was an unusual case, in that it was built to allow access for construction of the west breakwater, and it ran mainly on what were fairly rough and ready wharves and bits of open ground when it first opened. The earlier tramway from the Meeching Quarry crosses it on the level I think. 

 

The metalled road south from near the swing bridge came later, and I think went down  the back of the warehouses, shacks, tarpaulin factory etc that had sprung-up, so the tramway was between the metalled road and the waterside, although numerous access-ways crossed it.

 

I was amazed by how posh the area has now become when I cycled through a few weeks ago, lots of rather nice flats and town-houses where once was fascinating grot.

Haven't been down that way for about 30 years. Is the pub still there?

[Nearholmer]

I didn’t notice.

 

Minor panic interrupted my exploration, when I suddenly realised that I had one less pannier on my bike than I’d had at Brighton ..... the one with my wallet and keys, among much else, in it!

 

By a miracle, a chap found it up on the dreadfully rough track over the headland, where it must have fallen-off because I’d forgotten to secure one clip.  He phoned my elder daughter (one of my named emergency contacts), who phoned me, who phoned him. Within half an hour I had the pannier back, but the episode rather distracted me, and I pushed on to my lunch stop without further delay.

[Edwardian]

39 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Minor panic interrupted my exploration, when I suddenly realised that I had one less pannier ...  than I’d had at Brighton ..... 

 

 

 

 

Which only goes to show .... it would never have happened on the Great Western

 

Glad you recovered it.

[Andy Hayter]

Having checked the UK railway map it confirms my memories from the early 1970s of railway lines embedded in the road alongside Princes Dock in Hull.  The dock landing was on one side of the road and commercial properties and housing on the other.  I am fairly sure therefore that the line was street running and not running inside a private dock area.  By the time I saw it the lines would have been well out of use.  

 

I do regret not having a camera at the time since a lot of very atmospheric shots could have been taken showing Victorian architecture.  Today Princes Dock is a shopping centre - such is progress.  

[Annie]

Restores one's faith that there are still honest people in the world.

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

In a lot of cases the land probably belonged to the Dock or Railway company but was not fenced off to prevent public access. Wells Next the Sea might be a case in point Bristol Docks  may be another. Proper Tramway's where the railway ran alonside a public highway are much rarer.

 

Don

 

At Wells the link between the station and the East Quay was indeed on railway land but from the East Quay westwards was very much public highway/quayside and not fenced, but the quay lines were shunted by horses. There were also at least two pubs, one of which, perched on the water's edge presented a blank wall to the sea. What a missed opportunity. It's now been converted into holiday flats, of course.

 

The proposed E&MR branch from Holt to Blakeney would have run along Blakeney Quay before heading out over the salters to a new jetty out into 'The Pit'.