Mad Carew Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 As a newcomer to the hobby, I wonder if it is at all advisable to consider building one's own track? What is more, it is surely overly ambitious for a beginner to tackle track of a non-standard gauge, where there would be no point kits, components, templates, or defined standards? I am thinking of the 5'6" gauge of Indian railways, so 22mm gauge in 4mm scale. Is this a non-starter? Should I, like many modelling Irish railways, simply compromise with OO track? I am not considering a finescale faithful prototype layout, it is a layout that would take many liberties, so why not with the gauge? If it were practical to build 22mm track, how might one go about it? Of course, it brings with it the challenge of producing locomotives and stock to run on 22mm gauge track - a tad more involved than re-gauging to EM, I suspect?w A more accurate gauge could just slow the whole project down or push up cost too much to make the project worthwhile for me. Any thoughts or guidance, pointers really, would be greatly appreciated! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2016 Hi Mad There is an Irish modellers group on the forum. It might be an idea to introduce yourself on there. There are some 22mm gauge layouts around, I have looked on the C&L site to see they support 22mm but they don't. Maybe worth contacting the EM Gauge Society and/or the Scalefour Society to see if they do gauges etc for doing your own track. For track templates try Templot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I think it's easier with the support of a specialist society, and/or commercial products. Although I'd wanted to for a long time, I never thought I'd be able to model 7ft gauge until I discovered the Broad Gauge Society. It's useful to have a set of proven standards to work to. Most people model the broad gauge to P4 standards with an accurate track gauge, and those who use courser standards tend to use a narrower gauge. Over scale wheels on the correct gauge make things difficult, which is why EM gauge is narrower than scale. So you may find you need to use very finescale standards, or compromise with the gauge, but only by a millimetre or so. OO gauge is an awful compromise for 4' 8½" gauge, and would surely destroy the character of an even wider gauge. If you can build your own track, the other main considerations are gauges and axles. Gauges aren't difficult to make if you have the skills, or know someone who has. My 28.08mm 3-point gauges were made by my brother, a retired engineer with a decent workshop, but made using fairly basic tools. Some wheel manufacturers will supply longer axles. For locos you can cut them to length, but making pinpoint axles for rolling stock would be more difficult. I don't think I'd consider it without having a lathe, although you could just use inside bearings instead. Download Templot, try designing a simple turnout, and have a go at making it. Then decide. Building you own track doesn't have to be expensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 If you modelled 5' 6" gauge in 3mm to the foot scale, you would be looking at 16.5mm which looks kinda familiar.......... Even if you couldn't live with proprietary HO track all the parts, gauges etc. are readily obtainable. Also wheels, axles etc. for locos and stock. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 If you modelled 5' 6" gauge in 3mm to the foot scale, you would be looking at 16.5mm which looks kinda familiar.......... Even if you couldn't live with proprietary HO track all the parts, gauges etc. are readily obtainable. Also wheels, axles etc. for locos and stock. John Or 32mm gauge at 5.8mm scale. Finescale O gauge standards are pretty close to RTR OO gauge (apart from the track gauge!). But using a non-standard scale with a standard track gauge shifts the problem from being an engineering one, to a scenic one. Where do you find suitable people, buildings and lineside bits and pieces? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSB Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 3.5mm scale on EM gauge would only be 1.05mm undergauge. Alternatively, in 1/50th scale (for which there are loads of buses, lorries and figures available) it works out at 33mm (Scale7). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Or 32mm gauge at 5.8mm scale. Finescale O gauge standards are pretty close to RTR OO gauge (apart from the track gauge!). But using a non-standard scale with a standard track gauge shifts the problem from being an engineering one, to a scenic one. Where do you find suitable people, buildings and lineside bits and pieces? 3mm scale is about 1:100 and 5.8mm scale is close to 1:50, both of which are common architectural model scales and for which figures and scenic details are readily available. It ends up a couple of inches out when scaled up, but 3.5mm scale on EM templated track (scales up to 5' 2.4") or P4 templated track (scales up to 5'4.6") is close and there are track components already available, and you can use widely available scenic accessories and modelling components. I have no idea what sleepering Indian railways use, so if you want something appropriate you might have to cut and space those yourself - I'm sure the Templot guys can sort out your sleeper spacing on the templates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 3.5mm scale on EM gauge would only be 1.05mm undergauge. Alternatively, in 1/50th scale (for which there are loads of buses, lorries and figures available) it works out at 33mm (Scale7). You're making it look too easy now! 32mm gauge at 1/50th scale would seem like a practical compromise, rather than my more pedantic 5.8mm scale. I must make sure I never take an interest in Indian railways, as I model in O and EM, so have two potential ways to add further complexity to my life! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 It's perfectly feasible to do it yourself - the only real hurdle is a track gauge, which could be knocked up easily by someone with a lathe. Templot will take care of your templates, you can still use C&L ready made bits if you like, though maybe not sleepers (there's a recent thread by me asking about their use elsewhere on the forum). Wheels etc is just a matter of longer axles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 3mm scale is about 1:100 and 5.8mm scale is close to 1:50, both of which are common architectural model scales and for which figures and scenic details are readily available. I mostly think in millimetres to the foot, and keep forgetting ratios! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 ....I have no idea what sleepering Indian railways use, so if you want something appropriate you might have to cut and space those yourself - I'm sure the Templot guys can sort out your sleeper spacing on the templates. This might also be of assistance... This, as well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 the only real hurdle is a track gauge, which could be knocked up easily by someone with a lathe. No need for a lathe at all, there is little benefit from a gauge being round, all that is needed ia a metal strip with notches for the rails filed in. For a preliminary trial even plasticard will do, but metal is better for wear resistance over time. Building track to any gauge is not particularly difficult so long as you have the will. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 For a preliminary trial even plasticard will do, but metal is better for wear resistance over time. I'd stick to metal (or even hardwood) as the two principle methods of building track involve either heat or plastic solvent (or both!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 A useful summary here about modelling Indian railways. http://www.irfca.org/faq/faq-model.html Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2016 A useful summary here about modelling Indian railways. http://www.irfca.org/faq/faq-model.html Cheers David A Dr Ken Walker used to model Indian Railways in Australia. No idea if still around. I see a link on your link David, but it doesn't work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 Or 32mm gauge at 5.8mm scale. Finescale O gauge standards are pretty close to RTR OO gauge (apart from the track gauge!). But using a non-standard scale with a standard track gauge shifts the problem from being an engineering one, to a scenic one. Where do you find suitable people, buildings and lineside bits and pieces? 5.8mm/foot is not far off 1/50 for which there is a fair amount of architectural modelmaking kit available. And not so far from 1:48 that some scenic stuff would probably work. But if he goes for 3mm/ft, there is simply stacks of stuff available. It does look like the sensible option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 No, it's not too ambitious. The gauge is pretty irrelevant (as long as you can source axles and construction gauges). It is the accuracy- coarse or fine- that will make things easier or harder. I can't see any reason why you could not adapt a C&L kit into a wide gauge for example, a 1:7 vee is a 1:7 vee, though I suspect the blades are different in India (British designed historically but probably a pre-grouping type). I re-started in this 18 months ago with a very ambitious plan- both in terms of size and accuracy- and rather than take the advice to make something simple I plodded on with learning everything I would need to do. I have a workshop littered with "how not to make..." test pieces and now I am pretty much ready. So if you are going to do something that is going to really challenge you, don't expect to have it built this time next week, but if you do opt to push yourself it is a much greater sense of achievement I think.Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Carew Posted February 25, 2016 Author Share Posted February 25, 2016 Thanks to everyone for the help so far. Having read today's posts and the guide to modelling linked, my thoughts have developed a bit further. This is not going to be a prototype model. It will be a fictitious blend of elements based upon prototype features. It will not have any claim to particular accuracy. It is the overall impression I think I am working on. Having said that, I think a track gauge that is at least tolerably close to correct seems necessary to capture the effect. The period will be equivalent to UK pre-Grouping. Most of the photographs I have seen of the prototype, either period or contemporary, show the sleepers and chairs covered by fine, presumably earth, ballast. This is to the advantage if using HO track for 4mm scale, as sleeper spacing is not an issue. It also means that, if I built my track, rails soldered directly to PCB sleepers with no gap between sleeper and rail and no cosmetic chairs would be fine. The most persuasive options appears to be: 3mm:1 foot or 1:100 scale, using ready-to-lay OO/HO track. This obviates the need to build track and, in theory, allows me to use RTR locos. There are a number of ranges of colonial military figures to the wargames scale of 15mm that would be fine for people. This scale would, of course, be a space saviour and favour the inclusion of some 'big' scenery. The drawback is that, for the period concerned, many locomotives are merely Indianised versions of contemporary British outline pr0tototypes, albeit to the wider gauge. OO RTR models would make better subjects than HO, but shrinking them down to 3mm scale could be problematic. I might end up having to fit smaller replacement wheels. 4mm:1 foot scale, using hand-built 2mm gauge track. This is, in many ways the most satisfying option to contemplate. I like this scale and am used to it from childhood railways and kits. Stadden's superb Edwardians would provide the European civilians and there are both 1/72nd and 20mm scale colonial wargames ranges. There is probably more choice of horse-drawn vehicles for this scale, too. Apart from re-gauging (!), locomotives will be a straight cross-over. I probably won't have scale drawings, and may be scaling from photographs. Dimensions won't be exact. With these, rather imprecise standards, I am sure that something like a Hornby J15 would make a great late Victorian Indian State Railways 0-6-0. My concern would be the axles, finding a way to make axles that fitted the RTR chassis and wheels concerned. I'd then have to re-quarter the wheels. I am, don't forget, a beginner. Bodies can always be hacked and rebuilt. So, it seems to me that, if I: Found a satisfactory way to re-gauge OO locomotives and stock. Made a track gauge Cut my own sleepers from PCB Bought rail (Code 75? flatbottom or billhead?) and some sleeper components Mastered Templot to plan it all out I could probably have a go at Indian Broad Gauge in 4mil. It does seem rather daunting, but it might also be quite fun! On the other hand, if I could find suitable HO locomotives and shrink them, I'd be well away! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Another thing to consider for 3mm scale is you could add metre gauge using off the shelf 10.5mm gauge track and mechs. Very slightly too wide but no worse than HOm using 12mm gauge. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted February 26, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2016 If you have difficulty getting 22 mm track and wheels why not use Irish 21 mm products. It a lot closer to your scale than 16.5mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 If he ends up building a "WP" Pacific, I think we should applaud wildly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Carew Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 I doubt I'll manage to generate applause, wild or otherwise, and there will be no Pacifics! I am thinking North Western Railway, probably circa 1896-1905. There is some stunning mountain landscape on offer for a modeller of this railway combined with impressive civil engineering. The Settle & Carlisle is a short walk across a bowling green in comparison. To add to the romance, tunnels, stations, and even bridges were fortified near the frontier with Afghanistan. These look like Victorian folly-style mock medieval castles, hence the romance, but I suspect this belies a deadly serious purpose; they all appear to have casements for riflemen. That, plus of course the fact that any Indian subject is rich, colourful and heady, and I thought "why not?" There were several metre or narrow gauge lines feeding into the system. Look at Bostan station, where there is a narrow gauge station alongside the broad gauge, for instance (search "Bostan Station Pakistan", or you end up with lots of pictures of Lincolnshire!). Back to reality. If Irish 21mm track is supported by trade components, then this might be the way to go. I am afraid I was ignorant as to the availability of any such products, and, as already suggested, perhaps the Irish group here would be the way to go. It is a 1mm, 3" discrepancy, less than the discrepancy between OO and EM or P4. Might this mean that axles for 21mm gauge are produced, I wonder? The Ponderings continue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 ....Back to reality. If Irish 21mm track is supported by trade components, then this might be the way to go. I am afraid I was ignorant as to the availability of any such products, and, as already suggested, perhaps the Irish group here would be the way to go. It is a 1mm, 3" discrepancy, less than the discrepancy between OO and EM or P4. Might this mean that axles for 21mm gauge are produced, I wonder? The Ponderings continue. The collection of gauges that you need for Irish 21mm are all available via the Scalefour Society, which you will normally have to join if you want to take advantage of the Stores facility - unless you come to the annual Scaleforum exhibition at the end of September, where the Stores normally has a trade stand. Pinpoint axles (28mm) are available from Alan Gibson Workshop or Ultrascale. Driving wheel axles are different, depending on the wheel you're using - I had to start with an extended axle intended for outside cranks, and cut that to length.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgundy Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I have also been exploring non standard gauges - in my case HO models of 5' gauge prototypes. I settled fairly quickly on using HO scale, because there is a certain amount of stock available for the US civil war period, and adjusting the gauge, because as an EM modeller that did not seem too big a challenge. I have got as far as building a short length of track and rewheeling a bogie to see how it looks, but have not progressed much further. I think the most challenging part of the project will be to produce a new chassis for a Mantua General which will need to put the motor into the boiler or firebox. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89233-southern-broad-gauge-track-or-ho-scale-on-175mm-gauge/ I would say that your project is certainly feasible but (not knowing what experience you have as a modeller or as a miniature engineer) is throwing yourself in at the deep end! Good luck. Best wishes Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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