IoW light rail conversion proposed

[PhilJ W]

Pretty sure the packing was to raise the door threshold height for NR platforms.

Perhaps the IOW platforms are already lower than standard, and it doesn't matter because the existing tube stock is low.

IIRC the track was raised in some of the stations to give step free access to the tube stock.

[Mark Saunders]

The ideal loading gauge of stock for the Islland would be the Tyne & Wear Metro and in theory the new build (if and when it is decided) for them could be extended with an add on with different traction package!

 

Mark Saunders

[surfsup]

The ideal loading gauge of stock for the Islland would be the Tyne & Wear Metro and in theory the new build (if and when it is decided) for them could be extended with an add on with different traction package!

 

Mark Saunders

 

Ideal maybe, but they are life expired and run off a completely different voltage system. Given how extensively rebuilt they were at Wabtec and Nexus are still sending them to the bin, I would hold out for the fleet having much of a future once their Tyne and Wear duties are complete. 

 

 

Pretty sure the packing was to raise the door threshold height for NR platforms.

Perhaps the IOW platforms are already lower than standard, and it doesn't matter because the existing tube stock is low.

 

 

 

I believe the reason for the packing was in part because of the shape of the D-78s. Conventional NR Stock either tapers at the bottom of the body or has a solebar. While the D78s also have a sole bar, they are much wider - so the packing allows them greater clearance. It's a bit like the Ride Height Modified Turbos for GWR. The other reason is to allow greater clearance with for the diesel raft to be fitted underneath. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Ideal maybe, but they are life expired and run off a completely different voltage system. Given how extensively rebuilt they were at Wabtec and Nexus are still sending them to the bin, I would hold out for the fleet having much of a future once their Tyne and Wear duties are complete. 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe the reason for the packing was in part because of the shape of the D-78s. Conventional NR Stock either tapers at the bottom of the body or has a solebar. While the D78s also have a sole bar, they are much wider - so the packing allows them greater clearance. It's a bit like the Ride Height Modified Turbos for GWR. The other reason is to allow greater clearance with for the diesel raft to be fitted underneath. 

 

What Mark S suggested was that some extra units should be tacked onto the T&W order for new trains. Seems sensible.

[mdvle]

What Mark S suggested was that some extra units should be tacked onto the T&W order for new trains. Seems sensible.

 

The problem with that is the delay in getting replacement trains.

 

T&W isn't expecting the first new train to enter service until the end of 2021, which means I would guess end of 2022 at the earliest for the entire fleet.  So Island Line wouldn't get anything until 2023 at the earliest and I don't think the current stock will work for another 5 years.

 

The big advantage of the 230 is availability, with trains in a year or less based on the timeframes for the Wales contract (Vivarail had the press release June 7th, the trains will be in service next summer after having been delivered for testing in early 2019).

 

On the assumption that Vivarail can do that that opens the possibility that Island Line could have 230's next summer as well if things moved quickly, or certainly by late 2019 unless a decision gets deferred.

[RichardLong]

IIRC the track was raised in some of the stations to give step free access to the tube stock.

Ryde Pier Head and (I think) Ryde Esplanade had the platforms lowered in 1967; all the other stations had the trackbed raised. Lake and Smallbrook Junction have been added since so were built at the correct height for tube stock.

[Coryton]

Ryde Pier Head and (I think) Ryde Esplanade had the platforms lowered in 1967; all the other stations had the trackbed raised. Lake and Smallbrook Junction have been added since so were built at the correct height for tube stock.

 

Won't that make them a bit low for surface level stock? 

[lmsforever]

Viv rail is the answer low running costs and not a great deal of work needs to be carried out ,have a read of latest Modern Railways all will be explained its a no brainer the converted LU stock is ready to be converted.The passengers will be happy to travel on them and perhaps numbers of riders will increase ,the addition of a loop will enable excellent services and they could be battery powered that would be a bonus.What is needed is action not talking as is the usual way in the UK this sorry process has gone on long enough.

[RichardLong]

Won't that make them a bit low for surface level stock?

 

I would think so. Presumably they'll have to raise them up.

[John M Upton]

Ex London Transport D Stock?  No thanks!!  They were rough riding rubbish on the District Line at low speeds when new and quite frankly the whole lot should have been turned into baked bean cans at the first opportunity, not recycled for main line operation where they are simply not fit for purpose.

[lmsforever]

At least if you got D stock you will still have trains, as this saga progresses I can see the whole thing be ing overtaken by apathy as is normal in this country.I bet the bus company is rubbing its hands as it sees ever more passengers in the offing as will house builders who will plonk houses on the station sites so have a little think and support at least some passenger units that fit the bill.

[Christopher125]

Ryde Pier Head and (I think) Ryde Esplanade had the platforms lowered in 1967; all the other stations had the trackbed raised. Lake and Smallbrook Junction have been added since so were built at the correct height for tube stock.

 

From what I gather electrification did not see track raised through Brading, Sandown and Shanklin though the latter has changed since - these stations still had their original low platforms so BR could save some cash.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Christopher125

[phil-b259]

 

 

 

Ex London Transport D Stock?  No thanks!!  They were rough riding rubbish on the District Line at low speeds when new and quite frankly the whole lot should have been turned into baked bean cans at the first opportunity, not recycled for main line operation where they are simply not fit for purpose.

 

I understand that a few years after introduction the entire fleet was given brand new bogies precisely because of the poor riding the origionals gave on ropey LU track.

 

This was one of the reasons cited by ViaRail when they launched the concept of reusing them on the national network.

 

Equally we are told by engineering experts that the bodyshells are in excellent condition - as are the underframes, so reuse is a far more sensible proposition than baked bean cans.

 

People need to remember that just because the DfT May have a ‘new trains’ fetish when it comes to franchising it does not automatically mean that stock being replaced is automatically only fit for scrap. While obviously not everything is suitible for reuse there is no need to be dismissive of people’s efforts - particularly as in environmental terms, reuse of a product is far more benifical than even the best recycling programmes.

[phil-b259]

From what I gather electrification did not see track raised through Brading, Sandown and Shanklin though the latter has changed since - these stations still had their original low platforms so BR could save some cash.

It’s a lot easier to raise platforms than it is to lower them. Many tube platforms, the Thameslink platforms at London Bridge and hundreds of other national rail stations have ‘humps’ added to provide level boarding to the disabled carriages and there is no reason the IOW couldn’t get the same.

[RichardLong]

Some of you might be interested in my forthcoming book: "Ryde Rail: A History of Tube Trains on the Isle of Wight".  Includes coverage of the debates and proposals of recent years (and the DfT's decision if they make one in the next few weeks!), as well as new information on the 1983 gauging trials.

 

To be published by Crecy Publishing on 31 May 2019.  http://www.crecy.co.uk/ryde-rail

 

 

[south_tyne]

If the poor folk of the IOW end up with our cast off T&W Metrocars then I honestly have immense sympathy for them..... 

Edited March 8, 2019 by south_tyne
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[lmsforever]

Agree with last posting the Vivrail option is the only sensible one and the councillors and toc should get off their backsides and order the units .Councils are notorious for   going slow on something that benefits people and remarkably fast when its concerning taxes.

[jim.snowdon]

On 12 October 2018 at 20:37, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

 

I understand that a few years after introduction the entire fleet was given brand new bogies precisely because of the poor riding the origionals gave on ropey LU track.

 

This was one of the reasons cited by ViaRail when they launched the concept of reusing them on the national network.

 

Equally we are told by engineering experts that the bodyshells are in excellent condition - as are the underframes, so reuse is a far more sensible proposition than baked bean cans.

 

People need to remember that just because the DfT May have a ‘new trains’ fetish when it comes to franchising it does not automatically mean that stock being replaced is automatically only fit for scrap. While obviously not everything is suitible for reuse there is no need to be dismissive of people’s efforts - particularly as in environmental terms, reuse of a product is far more benifical than even the best recycling programmes.

The D78s were still on their original bogies when I left LT in 1988, and were not, as far as I am aware, replaced for some years after that. LT's track quality was not of the best, but having driven D78s for quite a few miles, often at speeds into the 60s on test, the ride was quite good when they were new. It did deteriorate with time as the rubber springs aged, but that was a characteristic of all of LT's rubber sprung stock. What did kill the original bogies were the twisting stresses on the centre transom as a result of the poor track quality. The prototype H-frame bogies were fitted under a 1973 tube stock unit - 208, I think - were pulled out of service with cracked transoms well into the 1980s, and the D78 bogies would fail in the same manner.

 

 The suitability of the D stock on the Isle of Wight really rests on the matter of gauge clearance in the Ryde tunnel, which would, I think, turn out to be negative. 

 

Then an there is the small matter of funding. Any business case for upgrading the Island's public transport is made difficult by the seasonal nature of the passenger demand. The island is heaving in summer and quiet in winter, a problem that beset even the Southern Railway. 

 

Jim 

[lmsforever]

When ever I rode on the d78,s the ride was exellent as was the seating so they would seem to be a good base for conversion.

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, lmsforever said:

When ever I rode on the d78,s the ride was exellent as was the seating so they would seem to be a good base for conversion.

The seating has been replaced on the conversions.

[Christopher125]

On 08/03/2019 at 13:58, lmsforever said:

Agree with last posting the Vivrail option is the only sensible one and the councillors and toc should get off their backsides and order the units .Councils are notorious for   going slow on something that benefits people and remarkably fast when its concerning taxes.

 

The local council have no responsibility for Island Line or it's rolling stock, those are decisions for the franchisee and the DfT.

 

On 08/03/2019 at 14:36, jim.snowdon said:

The suitability of the D stock on the Isle of Wight really rests on the matter of gauge clearance in the Ryde tunnel, which would, I think, turn out to be negative. 

 

Adrian Shooter of Vivarail has confirmed they fit (only just, it's safe to assume), and it's widely understood that they are being proposed by SWR.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Christopher125

[roythebus]

One major problem of using D stock on the IoW may be that of ferry capacity. With all the new ferries now in operation, I understand the IWSR is limited as to what locos it can "import" for galas. They had the 33 last year, but this year's visit by a 73 has I understand been cancelled as the new ferries can't take the loadings. But I may be wrong.

[Joseph_Pestell]

59 minutes ago, roythebus said:

One major problem of using D stock on the IoW may be that of ferry capacity. With all the new ferries now in operation, I understand the IWSR is limited as to what locos it can "import" for galas. They had the 33 last year, but this year's visit by a 73 has I understand been cancelled as the new ferries can't take the loadings. But I may be wrong.

 

A D stock coach would only weigh about 40% (max) of a 73.

[sto243]

The ferry is not the only way of getting stock to the island. It's the cheapest way for the steam railway bringing single items across for galas, but if you were bringing a greater number of vehicles then you could probably afford to hire a Lo-Lo (Lift On-Lift Off) vessel and crane them straight onto the tracks at the pier head.

[Gwiwer]

If that were possible it would probably have been done before now.