The Bridge at Remagen - N Gauge Rhine Crossing in 1944.

[PhilH]

I think it depends on whether you are bothered by what a minority will think...there are those who will take offence at anything.

 

On the other hand most balanced, reasonably intelligent people will understand that you are (very successfully) creating a slice of history in miniature and that motifs and insignia are part of this.

[bbishop]

Al,

 

As the layout behind you at Warley, I obviously have an interest in Germany and its railways.

 

But, my father was incarcerated in Auschwitz in 1943- 44, which has influenced me.  Mainly my opposition to rascism, homophobia, political and religious hatred etc. The NSDAP ticks most of these boxes so overt displays of their symbolism is an issue for me.  But it is a historical fact that their symbol existed, so I think the key word is "overt".  You might want to consider the question: "would I be comfortable displaying this feature at a model railway exhibition in Germany?"

 

Bill

[Guest 40-something]

Right guys. I'm after your opinions on an issue that I've been side-stepping since starting Remagen.

 

The layout is set in Germany, during the war years and while the Nazi party were in power. The Swastika was a common sight during that period and would have been displayed on the E-Boats, the paddle steamer and various mititary vehicles.

 

So, in this day and age, and in the rail fraternity, is this acceptable or liable to cause offence...?

 

image.jpeg

 

image.jpeg

The rail gun looks great, I for one certainly wouldn't take offence.  As has been said it was a common sight from 1920 to 1945 and represents a period in time.

 

To me, I get annoyed when kit manufacturers don't include complete Swastika's on their decals, and don't display them in official builds and the cover artwork for fear of offending people.  If you are selling a kit of a WW2 Luftwaffe fighter aircraft and don't show it with the Swastika, thats akin to selling a 9F without the BR emblem!

[sp1]

Al,

 

As the layout behind you at Warley, I obviously have an interest in Germany and its railways.

 

But, my father was incarcerated in Auschwitz in 1943- 44, which has influenced me. Mainly my opposition to rascism, homophobia, political and religious hatred etc. The NSDAP ticks most of these boxes so overt displays of their symbolism is an issue for me. But it is a historical fact that their symbol existed, so I think the key word is "overt". You might want to consider the question: "would I be comfortable displaying this feature at a model railway exhibition in Germany?"

 

Bill

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as the situation may have changed, but my understanding is that it is/ was illegal to display a swastika in Germany.

 

However, I think in a historical context its use here is appropriate, and to be honest, I had not noticed its use when looking at the layout (unless it hasn't appeared before) - I was simply looking at the stunning modelling - and how many war films (and even 'Dads Army'!!) have you seen that used it?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Al,

 

As the layout behind you at Warley, I obviously have an interest in Germany and its railways.

 

But, my father was incarcerated in Auschwitz in 1943- 44, which has influenced me.  Mainly my opposition to rascism, homophobia, political and religious hatred etc. The NSDAP ticks most of these boxes so overt displays of their symbolism is an issue for me.  But it is a historical fact that their symbol existed, so I think the key word is "overt".  You might want to consider the question: "would I be comfortable displaying this feature at a model railway exhibition in Germany?"

 

Bill

 

Bill

 

As you are aware, we know each other personally through various exhibitions over the last 20 years or so and I would not wish to belittle your personal experiences but I come back to my question ......

 

Al's model is not a commercial enterprise and moreover it is more an educational tool than a pure entainment although it obviously has elements of both.

 

I therefore ask you how you feel about Hollywood films that openly display the swastika ... for example the film that inspired Al's work - The Bridge at Remagen - now that film was made commercially to make money as (primarily) an entertainment rather than as a educational aide .... so should the filmakers have avoided the swastika? And also in a hundred other films and TV programmes - I come back to my main point - Al is making a historical statement aimed (in part at least) to educate and that means his portrayal of the swastika is not frivilous but historically accurate.

[sir douglas]

its always been a major issue with Wargaming, the company that runs the 2 online games World of tanks and World of Warships, although it would be prototypical to have a swastika on a german tank or on the flag of a german battle ship they banned it as most of the player base for the 2 games are in europe and they dont want to been seen as saying its okay to display a swastika, in the same theme is that the rising sun flag for japanese ships is banned in the game obviosly because of the atrocities inflicted by japan to prisoners

Edited January 22, 2017 by sir douglas

[Night Train]

In my view, you are modelling a period in history and should therefore display the insignia used at the time.

I would agree with this. This is a reproduction of a time and event in history and as such should be conveyed accurately.

 

If it was AL making a "personal statement", then I would agree, no swastika. But as it is an accurate (and well researched) facsimile, then it should be shown "as is/as was", "warts and all".

Edited January 22, 2017 by Night Train

[TEAMYAKIMA]

its always been a major issue with Wargaming, the company that runs the 2 online games World of tanks and World of Warships, although it would be prototypical to have a swastika on a german tank or on the flag of a german battle ship they banned it as most of the player base for the 2 games are in europe and they dont want to been seen as saying its okay to display a swastika, in the same theme is that the rising sun flag for japanese ships is banned in the game obviosly because of the atrocities inflicted by japan to prisoners

 

 

I can only comment yet again that we are on the one hand looking at 'gaming' which is a game, an entertainment whereas having spent time with Al at Warley  who was explaining (educating) viewers on the historical significance of his display I believe that Al's model is a museum quality display in EVERY sense. Museum quality modelling combined with a museum's attitude to education and because of that I thing Al would be totally justified in showing things as they were.

Edited January 22, 2017 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Al.]

Gents. Thanks for your comments. All are good and valid points.

The question was prompted by a wargaming friend of mine who dropped by the other day to see the layout. We had a lengthy and inconclusive conversation about it over a couple of beers.

 

So far all the marking on the rolling stock are too small to see, so nicely side-step the problem. The armoured wagon, along one of the other armoured trains wagons, will is the only rolling on the layout to visible displays the swastika. The paddle steam should fly it as it was the flag flown by German merchant ships during the period, and the E-Boats would fly the Navy version. I don't feel its warranted anywhere else.

 

I think maybe it's something that might be discussed with the exhibition managers before and the layout altered according.

 

 

 

Al.

[Night Train]

Maybe a note on the layout description saying they are there for historical accuracy only and in no way convey any personal, or political sentiments.

[petethemole]

I'd like to point out that the display of the display of the flag on the decking of the armoured railcar is inappropriate on grounds of accuracy. The display of the flag in this way was common in the early part of the war during the Blitzkrieg campaigns when the army was advancing rapidly and the Luftwaffe had aerial superiority. The flag, with its predominantly bright red colour and contrasting centre was an ideal air recognition marker, allowing the supporting aircraft to distinguish Wehrmacht vehicles from the enemy. By 1945 the allies had air superiority in the area portrayed and the flag as displayed would draw unwanted attention.  When I was into military modelling, I had one or two model German tanks displaying the flag as used in that way in 1941 and these were regularly put on public display at modelling shows. 

[monkeysarefun]

Broadly similar I guess  to the use of the 'N' word. Obviously unacceptable if used  in movies set in current days or by Top Gear presenters, but it gets used in  'Django Unchained' about 100 times, presumably its deemed acceptable due to historical accuracy.

Edited January 23, 2017 by monkeysarefun

[Al.]

I'd like to point out that the display of the display of the flag on the decking of the armoured railcar is inappropriate on grounds of accuracy. The display of the flag in this way was common in the early part of the war during the Blitzkrieg campaigns when the army was advancing rapidly and the Luftwaffe had aerial superiority. The flag, with its predominantly bright red colour and contrasting centre was an ideal air recognition marker, allowing the supporting aircraft to distinguish Wehrmacht vehicles from the enemy. By 1945 the allies had air superiority in the area portrayed and the flag as displayed would draw unwanted attention.  When I was into military modelling, I had one or two model German tanks displaying the flag as used in that way in 1941 and these were regularly put on public display at modelling shows.

 

A very valid point, and one I'd over looked.

[Al.]

After a couple of hours on the workbench my new Trix Br-52 has had a good weathering. Jobs still to do are to remove the front coupling and then give it another good run on the test track to clean off any paint that's got onto the pick-ups.

 

 

Al.

[Al.]

As well the LSM-T, I've also been working on this little chap.

 

 

It still needs a few marking adding and weathering before being attached to its train.

 

 

Al.

[Al.]

A batch of 3D printed models turned up today. They're from a company called Butler Printed Models and the lead came from a wargaming buddy of mine who usually buys his 15mm stuff.

 

https://www.butlersprintedmodels.co.uk

 

After a chat to the guy he agreed to rescale a few for me and run off an order.

There's two batches here; Hummells Sdkfz10's and Sdkfz251 in 1:144 scale, and Chieftains and FV432's in 1:160 scale.

 

The verdict? So so. Scaling is pretty much spot on and you can see the detailing is there on the CAD model, but at these scales it too fine and is overwhelmed by the printing marks. They're gonna need s bit of work to bring them into standard for Remagen. However in larger scales I expect they'll look great and at the price they're spot on for wargaming.

 

 

 

 

 

[Al.]

Another film star joined Lucy on Remagen this morning. They appear to have go a bit lost crossing the Alps and forgot to stop at Switzerland

 

 

In the film the loco is a Gr-735. However n gauge Italian steam locos are pretty thin on the ground as far as I know no-one makes a Gr-735. So I've got s Br-56 masquerading as the part. The conversion was fairly simple. Just a case of altering the cab side windows and adding smoke deflectors.

 

 

 

It still need the '51' adding to the defectors and number plate adding to the cab to complete.

 

 

 

 

 

Al.

[Night Train]

I am sure Colonel Ryan approves.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Night Train

[brightspark]

Right guys. I'm after your opinions on an issue that I've been side-stepping since starting Remagen.

 

The layout is set in Germany, during the war years and while the Nazi party were in power. The Swastika was a common sight during that period and would have been displayed on the E-Boats, the paddle steamer and various mititary vehicles.

 

So, in this day and age, and in the rail fraternity, is this acceptable or liable to cause offence...?

It may not cause much offence in the UK, where we have been bought up on a diet of war films and Dads Army, but on the continent it does.

I can confirm that it is illegal to display this symbol in Germany. So the question of "would you feel comfortable" would not arise, unless you did accept an invitation to go when you would be erm...very uncomfortable.

I would suggest avoiding it or inserting another symbol. Minature Wonderland just show the red flag with a white circle.

 

I think that this model would be welcome in Germany as the bridge and the battle is well known. But be sensitive.

 

Andy

[Luke Piewalker]

It may not cause much offence in the UK, where we have been bought up on a diet of war films and Dads Army, but on the continent it does.

I can confirm that it is illegal to display this symbol in Germany. So the question of "would you feel comfortable" would not arise, unless you did accept an invitation to go when you would be erm...very uncomfortable.

I would suggest avoiding it or inserting another symbol. Minature Wonderland just show the red flag with a white circle.

 

I think that this model would be welcome in Germany as the bridge and the battle is well known. But be sensitive.

 

Andy

When I got back into model aeroplanes I was surprised by the lack of swastikas in kits. Then some come with swastika decals in two parts. I also quickly realised I didn't actually miss them. I reckon it's the balkenkreuz that gives it the German flavour

[Al.]

Back to working on the layout today.

Despite having a reasonably large workshop, I can only get half of Remagen up at any one time. The other half I've turned into abstract art.

 

 

 

As for the other half. That's getting a bit of remodelling to overcome a few operating problems we encounter at Warley.

 

 

 

Al.

[BlackRat]

It is historically correct and factually accurate.

 

If people take offence, then that's an issue for them to deal with and not for you to worry about.

 

I have several dozen moldel tanks, including 3 RC....... Tigers in various scales from 1/35th to 1/16th.

 

All three represent one or other ot the SS Panzer Brigades, and one has a burnt and battle scarred Swastika flag as an air ID?.......as it it based on one of the tanks from the Russian winter campaign.

 

No one has ever moaned to me about it, and it's hard luck if they do.

 

Carry on with the excellent and accurate modelling.

Edited February 15, 2017 by BlackRat

[sp1]

I agree - historically correct and factually accurate is a correct and precise description. In the history of any country there are 'unsavoury' episodes to modern eyes, but it doesn't mean we should wear blinkers to what happened in the past

[luckymucklebackit]

Want to see Swastikas? - the BBC is dramatizing Len Deighton's SS-GB starting this Thursday, I have seen the trailer and there are plenty of CGI Nazi banners "draped" over Westminster, doubt if many will complain.

 

jim

[TEAMYAKIMA]

This is in no way a complaint about anyone who has posted about Swastikas expressing a view either way, but may I suggest that enough is enough now with regards this issue within this layout thread - it would be unfortunate in my opinion if any more of Al's layout thread was taken up with what is a side issue in many ways.

 

Maybe a PM to Al with any further views might be a better way forward or even a separate thread discussing the Swastika issue might be better.

 

I am not speaking for Al - he may think differently - but I have seen so many threads on RMweb drift far off topic and I personally would not like to see that happen to this thread which I enjoy so much.