TPE new trains

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Interesting how they want 15-30 to replace what is 14 68s, with 14 coach sets IIRC. I wonder if they are planning on buying more mk5s?

Maybe to replace the 185s?

 

Apparently they are also proposing to use the 802s on the West Coast - what happens to the 397s

[hexagon789]

25 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Maybe to replace the 185s?

 

Apparently they are also proposing to use the 802s on the West Coast - what happens to the 397s

One possibility would be the Edinburgh-Newcastle service, you could even theoretically diagram a Manchester-Edinburgh to turn into one on arrival at Edinburgh.

 

Another option would be running double sets, but that doesn't seem especially likely.

 

Third option I can think of is that TPE do away with them and the ROSCO offers them to someone else?

[TomScrut]

54 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Maybe to replace the 185s?

 

Yes but they'd need to find more coaches wouldn't they? And if they were going to be ordering more entire train sets I think they'd be after Hitachis given they already do the bi mode and perform well at what they do as far as I am aware and are an existing design.

 

There were rumours of some of the orders for Hitachis in place being surplus to requirements now too, some of the Avanti ones IIRC.

 

54 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Apparently they are also proposing to use the 802s on the West Coast - what happens to the 397s

 

I thought the 802s on WCML were not to displace 397s but to add operational flexibility?

Edited February 21, 2022 by TomScrut

[4630]

Difficult to see these as 'new trains' anymore, but as the class 68s and Mark 5s have never fully entered service with TPE, I guess it's probably still a relevant description!

 

On 8th April 2022 Nova 3 set TP13 heads east at Deighton with 3E29, Manchester Victoria to York...

 

...with 68026 'Enterprise' providing the motive power from the rear.

 

There have been similar workings on 6th & 7th April.  I presume these are for driver/crew training/re-freshing purposes.

 

Todays schedule, subject to alteration, includes;

3E23 05.45 Longsight MD to York (07.59), via Manchester Victoria

3F56 08.29 York to Manchester Victoria (09.49)

3E29 10.01 Manchester Victoria to York (11.16)

3F62 11.28 York to Manchester Victoria (12.50)

3E35 13.01 Manchester Victoria to York (14.18)

3F68 14.28 York to Longsight MD (16.15), via Manchester Piccadilly

 

[Gilbert]

4 minutes ago, 4630 said:

Difficult to see these as 'new trains' anymore, but as the class 68s and Mark 5s have never fully entered service with TPE, I guess it's probably still a relevant description!

 

On 8th April 2022 Nova 3 set TP13 heads east at Deighton with 3E29, Manchester Victoria to York...

 

...with 68026 'Enterprise' providing the motive power from the rear.

 

There have been similar workings on 6th & 7th April.  I presume these are for driver/crew training/re-freshing purposes.

 

Todays schedule, subject to alteration, includes;

3E23 05.45 Longsight MD to York (07.59), via Manchester Victoria

3F56 08.29 York to Manchester Victoria (09.49)

3E29 10.01 Manchester Victoria to York (11.16)

3F62 11.28 York to Manchester Victoria (12.50)

3E35 13.01 Manchester Victoria to York (14.18)

3F68 14.28 York to Longsight MD (16.15), via Manchester Piccadilly

 

Thanks for that - I'm in York over Easter and rather hope to catch some 68s in action - possibly as a passenger - so will be keeping an eye on any "gen" that appears.

Chris

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, 4630 said:

Difficult to see these as 'new trains' anymore, but as the class 68s and Mark 5s have never fully entered service with TPE, I guess it's probably still a relevant description!

 

On 8th April 2022 Nova 3 set TP13 heads east at Deighton with 3E29, Manchester Victoria to York...

 

...with 68026 'Enterprise' providing the motive power from the rear.

 

There have been similar workings on 6th & 7th April.  I presume these are for driver/crew training/re-freshing purposes.

 

Todays schedule, subject to alteration, includes;

3E23 05.45 Longsight MD to York (07.59), via Manchester Victoria

3F56 08.29 York to Manchester Victoria (09.49)

3E29 10.01 Manchester Victoria to York (11.16)

3F62 11.28 York to Manchester Victoria (12.50)

3E35 13.01 Manchester Victoria to York (14.18)

3F68 14.28 York to Longsight MD (16.15), via Manchester Piccadilly

 

Are those new vinyls on the Driving coach?

[4630]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Are those new vinyls on the Driving coach?

 

Whereabouts on the Driving coach are you seeing them?

[woodenhead]

Just now, 4630 said:

 

Whereabouts on the Driving coach are you seeing them?

The whole front end - now it's either I am not used to seeing the 68 combos, or there is a revised livery compared to the locos and the IEPs.

[woodenhead]

Or maybe not, looking on Google now, they've always been different, how odd.

[4630]

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The whole front end - now it's either I am not used to seeing the 68 combos, or there is a revised livery compared to the locos and the IEPs.

 

13 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Or maybe not, looking on Google now, they've always been different, how odd.

 

To satisfy your curiosity, as well as my own, I've just had a look at some other images that I have.

 

Here's a close crop of the front of the Driving coach from todays image of TP13...

 

...by comparison, here's TP13 again on 28th July 2021...

 

...and as I also have another image taken from the same position and angle as todays image, this time of TP06 on 20th July 2021.

 

 

[rogerzilla]

Why does the Nova 3 have a 3,800hp (Type 5 in the olden days) loco to move only five coaches?  Is it because no-one makes a suitable lower-powered loco now?  It's the sort of job that used to be done by a BRCW Type 2 or 3.

[Hobby]

I like the "Not in Service" on the front, it seems to summarise TPE in general at the moment, especially north of York...

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

Why does the Nova 3 have a 3,800hp (Type 5 in the olden days) loco to move only five coaches?  Is it because no-one makes a suitable lower-powered loco now?  It's the sort of job that used to be done by a BRCW Type 2 or 3.

Because the timetable requires it.

Edited January 26, 2023 by hexagon789

[frobisher]

2 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Why does the Nova 3 have a 3,800hp (Type 5 in the olden days) loco to move only five coaches?  Is it because no-one makes a suitable lower-powered loco now?  It's the sort of job that used to be done by a BRCW Type 2 or 3.

 

It's a 100+ mph cleared trainset, and your choice of loco is rather limited there.  The 67 is a little harsh on track where as the 68 is a much more evolved 67 that is more gentle on track.

[jamie92208]

25 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Because the timetable requires it.

And I believe that the service was designed to becoperated by Class 88's but they are a tad late stringing the knitting.

 

Jamie

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Why does the Nova 3 have a 3,800hp (Type 5 in the olden days) loco to move only five coaches?  Is it because no-one makes a suitable lower-powered loco now?  It's the sort of job that used to be done by a BRCW Type 2 or 3.

 

25 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

It's a 100+ mph cleared trainset, and your choice of loco is rather limited there.  The 67 is a little harsh on track where as the 68 is a much more evolved 67 that is more gentle on track.

 

24 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

And I believe that the service was designed to becoperated by Class 88's but they are a tad late stringing the knitting.

 

Jamie

Were the trains not also designed to replace the 185s over the Pennines which is rather hilly shall we say.  The 185 is a rather beefy unit itself compared to other slower units.

 

In the days of yore all the best trans Pennine had a Type 4!               and the odd Type 5 late on

[Mark Saunders]

9 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Why does the Nova 3 have a 3,800hp (Type 5 in the olden days) loco to move only five coaches?  Is it because no-one makes a suitable lower-powered loco now?  It's the sort of job that used to be done by a BRCW Type 2 or 3.

Rather forgetting it took a multi class 50 to get over Shap & Beattock.

[Hobby]

I thought single units could but not keep to the faster timings brought in just before electrification, hence two 50s?

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Why does the Nova 3 have a 3,800hp (Type 5 in the olden days) loco to move only five coaches?  Is it because no-one makes a suitable lower-powered loco now?  It's the sort of job that used to be done by a BRCW Type 2 or 3.

 

(1) The core TPE routes are challenging gradient wise.

 

(2) Passengers expect air conditioning at seat power points etc which means a high ETS demand

 

(3) To keep to time and maximise line capacity fast acceleration is required from station stops - that needs a lot of grunt.

[TomScrut]

10 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Why does the Nova 3 have a 3,800hp (Type 5 in the olden days) loco to move only five coaches?  Is it because no-one makes a suitable lower-powered loco now?  It's the sort of job that used to be done by a BRCW Type 2 or 3.

 

7 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

 

Were the trains not also designed to replace the 185s over the Pennines which is rather hilly shall we say.  The 185 is a rather beefy unit itself compared to other slower units.

 

In the days of yore all the best trans Pennine had a Type 4!               and the odd Type 5 late on

 

Also worth noting that 2 185s (i.e. 6 cars) have a higher power output (4500hp) than a 68 with 5 coaches (3800hp) and will weigh less.

 

@rogerzilla you could probably run the train with a class 37. It would just take a fair bit longer to do the journey.

 

Bear in mind that power is probably of higher importance to going fast than it is to pulling large weight. Power = Force x Speed.

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Also worth noting that 2 185s (i.e. 6 cars) have a higher power output (4500hp) than a 68 with 5 coaches (3800hp) and will weigh less.

Though the 68 transmission is more efficient and can theoretically apply full power from a stand. Due to limitations in accepting the high torque output of the QSK engines in the Class 185, the throttle control system automatically restricts power to Notch 4 maximum until 20mph and does a similar rpm/power output restriction after each transmission stage change.

 

And no, the 185s weigh considerably MORE!

 

Class 185 three-car unit: 163 tonnes tare

 

Class 68 + standard 5-coach Mk5A

set: 245.8 tonnes tare (of which the 68 contributes 85t).

 

I.e. a six-car 185 formation weighs more than 80 tonnes more over a Nova 3 formation.

 

Also the 185s put out about 600bhp at rail per coach; the 68 can put out about 3,220 (2400kW). Neither figure taking ETS loads into account.

 

 

[TomScrut]

16 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Though the 68 transmission is more efficient and can theoretically apply full power from a stand. Due to limitations in accepting the high torque output of the QSK engines in the Class 185, the throttle control system automatically restricts power to Notch 4 maximum until 20mph and does a similar rpm/power output restriction after each transmission stage change.

 

Yes, I did nearly mention that the drivetrain probably has better characteristics in the 68. It won't however be able to apply full power at low speed as that would mean applying more tractive effort than it is capable of. Quick maths suggests 27km/h is where the loco goes from applying peak tractive effort to peak power (assuming it can maintain that level).

 

16 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

And no, the 185s weigh considerably MORE!

 

Ah, I thought I had done that calculation previously and it worked out in the favour of the 185. Must be getting confused with something else.

[Reorte]

Seem to remember someone doing some sums on here a while back and working out that around the five coach mark it worked out as better to go for a loco and coaches, as well as not needing an entirely new train to operate on electrified routes. Not sure if that was just for this route though (after all there are plenty of longer multiple units than that around the country).

Edited January 27, 2023 by Reorte

[jamie92208]

6 hours ago, Reorte said:

Seem to remember someone doing some sums on here a while back and working out that around the five coach mark it worked out as better to go for a loco and coaches, as well as not needing an entirely new train to operate on electrified routes. Not sure if that was just for this route though (after all there are plenty of longer multiple units than that around the country).

If it wasn't on here Ian Walmsley certainly did in Modern Railways.  The rakes can be extended to 7 coaches if I remember correctly.

 

Jamie

Edited January 27, 2023 by jamie92208

[newbryford]

53 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

If it wasn't on here Ian Walmsley certainly did in Modern Railways.  The rakes can be extended to 7 coaches if I remember correctly.

 

Jamie

 

Although IIRC that would cause some platform/train length issues. Albeit "fixable" with selective door opening.