Golden Arrow Last Steam Run Train Pack R3400

[Robin Brasher]

In reply to SR Man post 27 gives a list of converted K Pullman cars for the 'Golden Arrow' but I am not sure whether any of these were used for the last steam run.

 

Meanwhile I enclose some pictures of my Hornby R3400 'Golden Arrow' set running at the Wessex Group of the Hornby Collectors Association meeting last night at Broadstone Methodist Church Hall. The set ran very well for 15 minutes on Peco track with a radius of about two feet. The members liked the set but were concerned that Hornby had not produced any more 'Golden Arrow' coaches to expand the set.

 

I have heard that British Railways chose 'Appledore' to haul the Golden Arrow because there is a village called Appledore in Kent by the Romney Marsh. I remember travelling through the station hauled by an H class locomotive on my way to a holiday at Greatstone on sea. The locomotive was named after Appledore near Barnstaple and Westward Ho in Devon but it did not have a coat of arms.

[SRman]

Thanks Robin. However, I wasn't particularly concerned with just the last steam-hauled 'Arrer. I was wondering whether car 34 could be renumbered to accurately represent any of the Golden Arrow cars from around that period. I believe car 208 is not a candidate, having been downgraded from a first class car. Bear in mind that I will shortly be receiving a couple of Dave Jones' class 71 locos, which could also legitimately haul the Hornby cars, as well as owning several Bulleid pacifics of all classes.

[Godfrey Glyn]

Having just compared 'Appledore' (TEC05) with 'Ottery St Mary'(SK) it would appear that there is a subtle change to the BR green and the 'Appledore' is a more refined molding. On 34045 there is a slight ridge on the side of the boiler, above the handrail which is absent on 34100. My 'Appledore' runs beautifully and the modified K type Pullman cars look really good, even if they have the wrong version of the crest on Car 34. It would indeed be great if Hornby were to produce the U types so that as Chris has written, it would be possible to recreate an authentic Golden Arrow set. Don't be pessimistic Chris, you have many years ahead of you and recently Hornby have managed to significantly reduce the time span between announcement and product release - certainly when compared with the other major manufacturers.

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

[Robin Brasher]

Having just compared 'Appledore' (TEC05) with 'Ottery St Mary'(SK) it would appear that there is a subtle change to the BR green and the 'Appledore' is a more refined molding. On 34045 there is a slight ridge on the side of the boiler, above the handrail which is absent on 34100. My 'Appledore' runs beautifully and the modified K type Pullman cars look really good, even if they have the wrong version of the crest on Car 34. It would indeed be great if Hornby were to produce the U types so that as Chris has written, it would be possible to recreate an authentic Golden Arrow set. Don't be pessimistic Chris, you have many years ahead of you and recently Hornby have managed to significantly reduce the time span between announcement and product release - certainly when compared with the other major manufacturers.

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

 

Replying to Godfrey's post Wrenn produced some 'Golden Arrow' coaches based on the Hornby Dublo 'Aries'. It is also possible to rename 'Aries' which is based on a 'Golden Arrow' Pullman Car as a cheaper alternative. I am not sure how well they would match up with the Hornby set

[dibber25]

The Hornby Car No.34 in the R3400 train pack is incorrect for the simple reason that it did not have a handbrake.

 

But to answer the question ..... The photo in the Kevin Robertson book is correct and Hornby have got the livery wrong as well! A photo of Car No.34 by G.Moon may be found by scrolling down this pdf document:

 

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/coupe/coupe_se03.pdf

 

Was Car No.208 in the GA formation on the last steam run? As this car was converted from first parlour Leona, Hornby could have used the same bodyshell as Minerva to represent 208. The interior seating arrangement would have been incorrect but far less obvious than incorrect doors and liveries.

I'm puzzled by the inclusion of three Guard Parlour cars as the set. Surely a bit of research could have located a non U-type car which ran in the Arrow? Three brake vehicles and no kitchen is a nonsense. Would have been much better to have presented a feasible choice of  vehicles rather than a nonsense choice that just happens to carry names borne by cars in the last train. (CJL)

[dibber25]

 

Having just compared 'Appledore' (TEC05) with 'Ottery St Mary'(SK) it would appear that there is a subtle change to the BR green and the 'Appledore' is a more refined molding. On 34045 there is a slight ridge on the side of the boiler, above the handrail which is absent on 34100. My 'Appledore' runs beautifully and the modified K type Pullman cars look really good, even if they have the wrong version of the crest on Car 34. It would indeed be great if Hornby were to produce the U types so that as Chris has written, it would be possible to recreate an authentic Golden Arrow set. Don't be pessimistic Chris, you have many years ahead of you and recently Hornby have managed to significantly reduce the time span between announcement and product release - certainly when compared with the other major manufacturers.

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

 

Replying to Godfrey's post Wrenn produced some 'Golden Arrow' coaches based on the Hornby Dublo 'Aries'. It is also possible to rename 'Aries' which is based on a 'Golden Arrow' Pullman Car as a cheaper alternative. I am not sure how well they would match up with the Hornby set

 

Although Aries was nominally a U-type car, it was a unique one-off vehicle - the last built, so there are no suitable alternative names. (CJL)

[JSpencer]

I'm puzzled by the inclusion of three Guard Parlour cars as the set. Surely a bit of research could have located a non U-type car which ran in the Arrow? Three brake vehicles and no kitchen is a nonsense. Would have been much better to have presented a feasible choice of  vehicles rather than a nonsense choice that just happens to carry names borne by cars in the last train. (CJL)

We live in hope for some golden arrow U types, kitchens, parlours but no brakes please Hornby (was there ever a U brake?).

[RFS]

What tender is fitted to 34100? It was built with a 9ft wide tender but lost that in November 1958 and instead got a narrow 8ft6in tender which it retained for the rest of its life.

 

SEMG has the details - http://www.semgonline.com/steam/blp_ten.html

[dibber25]

We live in hope for some golden arrow U types, kitchens, parlours but no brakes please Hornby (was there ever a U brake?).

No, there were no U-type brakes. The Guard Parlour cars served as brakes as the Arrow had either its own container flat wagon or a suitable separate van for luggage. (CJL)

[Robin Brasher]

Although Aries was nominally a U-type car, it was a unique one-off vehicle - the last built, so there are no suitable alternative names. (CJL)

Thank you. I did not realise that the Wrenn Golden Arrow Pullmans were fictitious. It looks like you are an authority on the Golden Arrow with your magazine articles on the subject over the years.

.

[andyman7]

Thank you. I did not realise that the Wrenn Golden Arrow Pullmans were fictitious. It looks like you are an authority on the Golden Arrow with your magazine articles on the subject over the years.

.

Most of what Wrenn made was fictitious 

[Robin Brasher]

A view of 'Golden Arrow' Pullman car 'Minerva' showing the illuminated table lamps. When running the 'Golden Arrow' set I added a couple of K class Pullmans and it began to look like a reasonable length train.

 

The picture shows the Pullman on the Purbeck Model Railway Group's layout at the barn at Godlingston Manor, Swanage. Work is progressing here to build a mini Pecorama with the emphasis on 0 gauge.

[trevor7598]

I hope Hornby will eventually release the guard parlour cars as individual models.

I would like one, not three. Minerva would be great, as I once travelled from Waterloo to Kingswear in this car,

and on the return journey stood in the guards vestibule, which was pretty spectacular viewing.

Hornby would also benefit from those who would only want a single example.

[brushman47544]

What tender is fitted to 34100? It was built with a 9ft wide tender but lost that in November 1958 and instead got a narrow 8ft6in tender which it retained for the rest of its life.

 

Looking at the photos of the actual model posted above, it has the correct 4,500g (8'6" wide) tender.

Edited March 23, 2017 by brushman47544

[Dunsignalling]

What tender is fitted to 34100? It was built with a 9ft wide tender but lost that in November 1958 and instead got a narrow 8ft6in tender which it retained for the rest of its life.

 

SEMG has the details - http://www.semgonline.com/steam/blp_ten.html

It's got the 8'6", 4500 gallon tender as appropriate to the period of the train pack and identifiable by the flat rear deck.

 

The bigger tenders have a prominent raised section, giving an extra 1000 gallons of water capacity.

 

The two types are easy to tell apart in cut-down form but less so (other than from the rear) with the side raves in place. 

 

John

Edited March 23, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[dibber25]

Thank you. I did not realise that the Wrenn Golden Arrow Pullmans were fictitious. It looks like you are an authority on the Golden Arrow with your magazine articles on the subject over the years.

.

The 'Golden Arrow' was always a favourite of mine. I wouldn't claim to be an authority - there are guys on here still telling me things I didn't know. However, I'm a huge fan of Pullman cars and I've always thought the genuine U-type cars were particularly attractive. They even looked good in the final blue and grey, even if it did offend at least one member of the BR Design Panel. If Hornby did the U-types they offer so much potential, having been used on the GA, various Royal workings, official visits, the Churchill funeral, and latterly the VSOE/Belmond. They are the only old-style Pullmans to carry blue and grey. You could even offer PECO a limited edition Orion as they have that car preserved at Seaton. (CJL)

[toboldlygo]

It's got the 8'6", 4500 gallon tender as appropriate to the period of the train pack and identifiable by the flat rear deck.

 

The bigger tenders have a prominent raised section, giving an extra 1000 gallons of water capacity.

 

The two types are easy to tell apart in cut-down form but less so (other than from the rear) with the side raves in place. 

 

John

 

You are forgetting the elusive 3rd type of tender which can often throw a spanner in the works to the newly converted Bulleid Nutters...

[Robin Brasher]

Before letting loose 'Appledore' and 'Royal Mail' with a rake of coaches I ran them both in for half an hour in each direction in the Godlingston trials. At first 'Royal Mail' caught up with 'Appledore' after five minutes but towards the end of the trial they were running at the same speed.

 

Both had oil stains which I cannot remove. 'Appledore' on the top of the boiler and 'Royal Mail' above a cylinder. For me these are working locomotives so it does not matter. At least it shows that Hornby does oil them.

[trevor7598]

The 'Golden Arrow' was always a favourite of mine. I wouldn't claim to be an authority - there are guys on here still telling me things I didn't know. However, I'm a huge fan of Pullman cars and I've always thought the genuine U-type cars were particularly attractive. They even looked good in the final blue and grey, even if it did offend at least one member of the BR Design Panel. If Hornby did the U-types they offer so much potential, having been used on the GA, various Royal workings, official visits, the Churchill funeral, and latterly the VSOE/Belmond. They are the only old-style Pullmans to carry blue and grey. You could even offer PECO a limited edition Orion as they have that car preserved at Seaton. (CJL)

 

I'm sure you will be at Ally Pally at the weekend Chris, and so Will Hornby, both of you in the same room !.

Tell them that the U-type cars are the next big thing, use your influence, grease their palms with silver.

 

Seriously, Hornby do seem to listen these days, and a mention of the Golden Arrow cars is on my to do list.

 

For the post war Arrow, Hornby have done all three types of Bulleid pacific in their various forms, a Britannia

and the class 71, even an ED, and now two authentic Pullmans, it's the rest of the train that's missing.

[SRman]

The 'Golden Arrow' was always a favourite of mine. I wouldn't claim to be an authority - there are guys on here still telling me things I didn't know. However, I'm a huge fan of Pullman cars and I've always thought the genuine U-type cars were particularly attractive. They even looked good in the final blue and grey, even if it did offend at least one member of the BR Design Panel. If Hornby did the U-types they offer so much potential, having been used on the GA, various Royal workings, official visits, the Churchill funeral, and latterly the VSOE/Belmond. They are the only old-style Pullmans to carry blue and grey. You could even offer PECO a limited edition Orion as they have that car preserved at Seaton. (CJL)

 

Before I go further, colour and liveries are very much a matter of personal opinion, so nobody has to agree with me here: I think the blue and grey didn't do the old-style Pullmans any favours, but merely looked reasonable. At least the Panel gave them some nice white lining to add a distinguishing, even distinguished, touch. However, what did seem to be almost universally condemned was the reverse grey and blue scheme only applied to a few of the old-style cars in the Golden Arrow, To me, the latter looked absolutely hideous. Apparently the Panel agreed with me and opted for the standard blue and grey with the white lining out, thankfully.

[Hilux5972]

Before I go further, colour and liveries are very much a matter of personal opinion, so nobody has to agree with me here: I think the blue and grey didn't do the old-style Pullmans any favours, but merely looked reasonable. At least the Panel gave them some nice white lining to add a distinguishing, even distinguished, touch. However, what did seem to be almost universally condemned was the reverse grey and blue scheme only applied to a few of the old-style cars in the Golden Arrow, To me, the latter looked absolutely hideous. Apparently the Panel agreed with me and opted for the standard blue and grey with the white lining out, thankfully.

 

I have to agree with you about the reverse Blue-Grey. The standard Blue-Grey looked passable, but the reverse was indeed a hideous livery.

[dibber25]

I have to agree with you about the reverse Blue-Grey. The standard Blue-Grey looked passable, but the reverse was indeed a hideous livery.

I agree absolutely! The reverse blue/grey, which was the official Design Panel livery for Pullmans, was awful. It just about passed muster on the Met-Camm Pullmans when clean but looked ludicrous on the flat-sided cars and was dreadful on the Blue Pullmans, where diesel soot and brake dust added to the problems. ( I believe the only cars to get reverse blue/grey were Aquila and Car No. 208 - the subject of Hornby's model - the real car illustrated in the current Model Rail. Nevertheless, the Design Panel was charged with coming up with a Corporate Image which was to give a uniformity across the whole railway regardless of whether it suited or did not suit particular equipment. (I always thought the rail blue with full yellow ends looked utterly appalling on anything that wasn't box-shaped (the Warships, for instance). The late Brian Haresnape, who was a leading member of the Panel (and a frequent visitor to Ian Allan when I worked there) was highly critical of the Southern Region's decision to not only change the Pullman livery but to use lining and non-standard fonts which, as far as he was concerned negated the Corporate Image. All history now, and 'design' was a very different science then to what it is now, when we can all be designers with aid of a computer. As an aside, and off-topic (sorry), Brian showed me the original artwork he had drawn for a possible 'new' HST livery (later called 'Executive'). It was all-hand drawn and painted. Imagine that now! (CJL)

Edited March 24, 2017 by dibber25

[miles73128]

I agree absolutely! The reverse blue/grey, which was the official Design Panel livery for Pullmans, was awful. It just about passed muster on the Met-Camm Pullmans when clean but looked ludicrous on the flat-sided cars and was dreadful on the Blue Pullmans, where diesel soot and brake dust added to the problems. ( I believe the only cars to get reverse blue/grey were Aquila and Car No. 208 - the subject of Hornby's model - the real car illustrated in the current Model Rail. Nevertheless, the Design Panel was charged with coming up with a Corporate Image which was to give a uniformity across the whole railway regardless of whether it suited or did not suit particular equipment. (I always thought the rail blue with full yellow ends looked utterly appalling on anything that wasn't box-shaped (the Warships, for instance). The late Brian Haresnape, who was a leading member of the Panel (and a frequent visitor to Ian Allan when I worked there) was highly critical of the Southern Region's decision to not only change the Pullman livery but to use lining and non-standard fonts which, as far as he was concerned negated the Corporate Image. All history now, and 'design' was a very different science then to what it is now, when we can all be designers with aid of a computer. As an aside, and off-topic (sorry), Brian showed me the original artwork he had drawn for a possible 'new' HST livery (later called 'Executive'). It was all-hand drawn and painted. Imagine that now! (CJL)

I love it! (hides)

[Robin Brasher]

Am excellent repaint in the last post. After umber and cream blue with a grey window surround was my favourite livery for Golden Arrow Pullman cars. The 'Golden Arrow' looked a bit untidy in steam days with a Brunswick green locomotive, a green parcels wagon, some crimson and cream coaches and then a rake of umber and cream Pullman cars and various other colour combinations. Having a blue electric locomotive, a blue parcels wagon followed by a mixture of blue and grey coaches and Pullman cars gave the train uniformity. Between 1975 and 1976 Hornby made an R230 'Golden Arrow' Pullman car in blue and grey livery. It would make sense for Hornby to do some 'joined up' thinking and to reintroduce these in its Railroad range to go with the blue class 71.

[Robin Brasher]

The 'Golden Arrow' arrived at Swanage a couple of days ago. 34092 'City of Wells' was one of the West Country Class engines which had clips to fit the Golden Arrow. I made a note of a picture of34092 'City of Wells' passing through Chelsfield station in cycling lion days with a maroon lined GUV and a rake of Pullman cars. I used to live nearby and I could hear its whistle from my house. One day a boy fell from the top of a cutting at Chelsfield. The 'Golden Arrow' stopped in time and the fireman was taken to hospital suffering from shock.

 

Hornby made a model of R4542 34092 'City of Wells' from 2006 to 2007 so this would provide alternative motive power to 'Appledore' for the 'Golden Arrow' train pack.