Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Fat Controller]

I'm just waiting for the sharp intakes of breath when the price is announced - Airfix 'two bob' it won't be !!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

But have you seen how much the 'two-bob' kits are now, John?  The Jet Provost is now just short of £10.00, the Beaufighter (originally in the 'three and six' range) is £18.99. Maintaining the same relationship between prices of 'two bob' kits and Kitmaster would put a basic kit at north of £30

[Dunsignalling]

 

When I read 'reasonably priced', I interpret this as 'less that an etched kit or RTR' - let's hope that I'm mistaken.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

By-the-bye - can they do trams here !!! Nose-to-tail trams of every conceiveable type, including the classic pre-war ones. (That's one passing the hotel now).

You are probably not far wide of the mark and I certainly don't think they'll get anywhere near the sub-£20 territory inhabited by the Ratio range.

 

Going into Glass-half-full mode for a moment (I do occasionally!); maybe it is the increased prices and greater choice of r-t-r coaches that has created the opening for new kits aimed at those who find brass a bit daunting.

 

The introduction, over the past few years, of several ranges of proper, prototypical stock in r-t-r form has undoubtedly caused many to take much more notice of what gets attached to the other end of the tender........     

 

John

Edited January 31, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

No negativity and / or gloom - just a healthy dose of realism; (and perhaps just a touch of Ozzie cynicism, as I'm here in Melbourne at present)!

 

When I read 'reasonably priced', I interpret this as 'less that an etched kit or RTR' - let's hope that I'm mistaken.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

By-the-bye - can they do trams here !!! Nose-to-tail trams of every conceiveable type, including the classic pre-war ones. (That's one passing the hotel now).

 

Fair enough.  Of course, it remains to be seen the price at which anything produced would have to be offered.

 

The sweet spot could be anywhere between Ratio's £15 and Roxey et al's £55. 

 

If that is not possible, one might risk losing the potential audience.  

 

This is presently an unknown, for me, at least!

Edited January 31, 2017 by Edwardian

[railroadbill]

No negativity and / or gloom - just a healthy dose of realism; (and perhaps just a touch of Ozzie cynicism, as I'm here in Melbourne at present)!

 

When I read 'reasonably priced', I interpret this as 'less that an etched kit or RTR' - let's hope that I'm mistaken.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

By-the-bye - can they do trams here !!! Nose-to-tail trams of every conceiveable type, including the classic pre-war ones. (That's one passing the hotel now).

If the free vintage tram is still running it's a must!

[Jol Wilkinson]

But, of course, Jon Jon, that argument, even assuming it is correct, can only apply in the case of the relatively limited number of prototypes that exist RTR.  I assume that anyone contemplating producing plastic coach kits would pick prototypes not catered for by RTR or presently available as kits. RTR will always leave gaps, particularly in coaching stock.  

 

There are plenty of high-spec RTR locos for which appropriate coaching stock is limited or non-existent RTR.  The sort of plastic kit being discussed here should be accessible as a solution for many owners of RTR locos, as well as those who kit-build locos. 

 

There are all sorts of difficulties and obstacles in the face of the would-be plastic kit manufacturer, not least of which is raising a considerable amount of cash.  I'm afraid I don't see your concern as one of them.

The introduction of new models outside the RTR world has often been by people who do it for their own reasons and may not as commercially driven as for the big manufacturers. In addition an individual doing so carries much lower fixed business overhead, wages, etc. and doesn't have to satisfy shareholders, other than himself. 

 

That's how many of the items in production (or not as the case may be as this thread) came about. Those that buy kits are still heavily dependent on a group of producers whose enthusiasm probably outweighs their commercial expertise. 

 

It's not really valid to compare prices of moulded kits with etched as the business model for producing them is very different. If any new moulded kit is to be priced based on production costs, etc. then we don't know where it will end up. If it is based on "market pricing" then what will there be to compare it with? The Ratio kits are cheap as the tooling costs have probably been amortised a long time ago.The Slaters GWR kits are listed online by one retailer (but out of stock) in the low £40's.  What else is there?

 

Modellers have been conditioned by RTR prices. Bachmann's simple livery mainline carriages are about £40. Will people be willing to pay much more than that for a high quality moulded plastic kit as an introduction to kit building?

[Clearwater]

I think people will pay £40+'for a quality kit albeit not for one where there is an rtr alternative available at a similar price. I doubt anyone would buy a BR mark 1 kit but a toplight, concertina, LNER articulated stock etc then yes

 

David

[Oldddudders]

I just bought some recent Hornby Maunsells for £40 each. These are the simpler Malachite livery, but would I now wish to run them with even the finest of kitbuilt stock, given the inevitable gap in quality of paint finish? We have long been told weathering covers a multitude of imperfections but not all of us like weathered finishes. When the likes of Larry Goddard say they'd struggle to improve on some Chinese finishes, the RTR bar is awfully high.

 

That said, prices continue to increase, and the 2017 Maunsell releases will cost more, so maybe the kit market can undercut them - especially for those purchasers with decorating talents.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Since we can't get folk to move to the other thread, perhaps we should ask the OP to change the title of this one?

[Horsetan]

....I doubt anyone would buy a BR mark 1 kit ...

 

I would, and have. I'm always on the lookout for Coopercraft Mk.1 kits, as I regard them as modern-day Kitmasters. In some ways, it was a pity that they were effectively sabotaged by the economic musclepower of the Bachmann Mk.1, so only four variants plus the underframe ever became kits.

[Edwardian]

Since we can't get folk to move to the other thread, perhaps we should ask the OP to change the title of this one?

 

Whilst I don't think you have caught me at my most inspired (!), happy to oblige.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think people will pay £40+'for a quality kit albeit not for one where there is an rtr alternative available at a similar price. I doubt anyone would buy a BR mark 1 kit but a toplight, concertina, LNER articulated stock etc then yes

 

David

I think that BR Mk1s are definitely a possibility because a) they have so many common parts b) there are so many types not covered RTR c) they cover a long time period.

 

The difficulty is that they are quite long and that means more powerful injection moulding machinery. That said, there are already a lot of Mk1 kits about. A mixed-media kit with plastic underframe/ends and brass sides could be a runner because one would amortise the tooling cost of the plastic bits over so many more sales. But then that is what a lot of folk are already doing with Comet sides on rtr underframes.

[Horsetan]

I think that BR Mk1s are definitely a possibility because a) they have so many common parts b) there are so many types not covered RTR c) they cover a long time period.

 

.....A mixed-media kit with plastic underframe/ends and brass sides could be a runner because one would amortise the tooling cost of the plastic bits over so many more sales. But then that is what a lot of folk are already doing with Comet sides on rtr underframes.

 

See also Southern Pride's range of Mk.1s.

 

Since we can't get folk to move to the other thread, perhaps we should ask the OP to change the title of this one?

 

What, something like "Coopercraft: My Part In Its Downfall"?

Edited January 31, 2017 by Horsetan

[webbcompound]

If the issues with kitmaking are cost and ability surely the answer is the etched side. They can be stuck onto older carriages of the right roof profile and length. This gets rid of the "difficult" bits of carriage making, reduces the cost of the etched parts enormously (in terms of research, design, production etc) and so puts variants within the reach of the less.well endowed financially and in terms of competence.

[Edwardian]

  

What, something like "Coopercraft: My Part In Its Downfall"?

 

It needed help?!?

[Coach bogie]

If the issues with kitmaking are cost and ability surely the answer is the etched side. They can be stuck onto older carriages of the right roof profile and length. This gets rid of the "difficult" bits of carriage making, reduces the cost of the etched parts enormously (in terms of research, design, production etc) and so puts variants within the reach of the less.well endowed financially and in terms of competence.

But it is moving the project away from the 'average modeller' again.

 

A basic Kitmaster type coach kit, all produced by plastic frets from the same machine to keep developments and production costs down.

 

Fret 1 Underframe (standard to suit All types, can suit more than one length, crease in fret to cut away to required coach)

 

Fret 2 Ends and roof with associated detail. (standard to suit All types, can suit more than one length, crease in fret to cut away to required coach)

 

Fret 3 Sides with any parts bespoke to that side.

 

Frets one and two can be extended runs to cover all sides variants to be produced with additional run sold as spares for those of use who have a collection of sides

 

Fret 3 is the shorter run as it will be for specific coach only.

 

Let the builder replace parts with brass, cast etc so you do not put off the novice/non confident kit builders.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Joseph_Pestell]

But it is moving the project away from the 'average modeller' again.

 

A basic Kitmaster type coach kit, all produced by plastic frets from the same machine to keep developments and production costs down.

 

Fret 1 Underframe (standard to suit All types, can suit more than one length, crease in fret to cut away to required coach)

 

Fret 2 Ends and roof with associated detail. (standard to suit All types, can suit more than one length, crease in fret to cut away to required coach)

 

Fret 3 Sides with any parts bespoke to that side.

 

Frets one and two can be extended runs to cover all sides variants to be produced with additional run sold as spares for those of use who have a collection of sides

 

Fret 3 is the shorter run as it will be for specific coach only.

 

Let the builder replace parts with brass, cast etc so you do not put off the novice/non confident kit builders.

 

Mike Wiltshire

That's the sort of thing I had in mind. I particularly like the idea of the floor being vari-length which would be useful for LMS modellers.

 

Roofs and ends are not that easy to standardise, even for Mk1s.

[webbcompound]

But it is moving the project away from the 'average modeller' again.

 

I don't see this. Sticking a piece of brass onto an old rtr after cutting a rough hole out where the windows are is pretty basic modelmaking. You don't even have to hold everything square, which you would with a full plastic kit, and the painting is going to be identical

[melmoth]

 

What, something like "Coopercraft: My ill-fitting Part In Its Downfall"?

 

Elucidated that for you

[Coach bogie]

I don't see this. Sticking a piece of brass onto an old rtr after cutting a rough hole out where the windows are is pretty basic modelmaking. You don't even have to hold everything square, which you would with a full plastic kit, and the painting is going to be identical

We will have to agree to differ. The word 'brass' puts off many a modeller. The Kirk kits, followed the Kitmaster idea; simple, all plastic and you can build on the kitchen table. 

 

Although there are the current 'must have', despite what many would think, the Slater's Toplights and clerestories did not fly off the shelves. The The design went way beyond the Kirk, this to be too complex for many and, price wise, the same as a brass kit. The result, those that had the skills to build the bogies etc, also had the skills to build a brass kit - the Slater's ceased to be a cheaper, easier alternative.

 

Think Kirk/Mailcoach plastic K22 toplight brake. rarer than hen's teeth, (though there is one on ebay at the moment), yet the alternative, more complex, Hayes, Hammond etc kits still crop up unbuilt.

 

In my advertising days I used to spend tens of thousands of pounds researching the target customer as to what they would or would not put up with in a product.Just because many of us can use brass sides to varying levels, it is dangerous to assume that all modellers can. If that was the case, there would be a lot less Ratio kits being sold.

 

Just an opinion

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited January 31, 2017 by Coach bogie

[Dunsignalling]

I don't see this. Sticking a piece of brass onto an old rtr after cutting a rough hole out where the windows are is pretty basic modelmaking. You don't even have to hold everything square, which you would with a full plastic kit, and the painting is going to be identical

But there's no shortage of etched sides/complete kits with which to do that already.

 

The issue is whether all-plastic kits aimed at those who "can't" or "won't" use brass can be produced at a quality/price relationship to find a niche in the market. 

 

I can and (sometimes) do work with brass but confess that I'm not exactly devoted to the stuff and much prefer working with plastic, so I hope it goes well.

 

John.

[Roy Langridge]

I don't see this. Sticking a piece of brass onto an old rtr after cutting a rough hole out where the windows are is pretty basic modelmaking. You don't even have to hold everything square, which you would with a full plastic kit, and the painting is going to be identical

There is much discussion about getting the younger generation into railway modelling. An all plastic kit, progressing from Airfix, will be an easier route. Without that younger modeller, this may all be hypothetical.

 

Roy

[Wheatley]

Coach bogie, on 31 Jan 2017 - 12:36, said:Coach bogie, on 31 Jan 2017 - 12:36, said:

Fret 1 Underframe (standard to suit All types, can suit more than one length, crease in fret to cut away to required coach)

 

Fret 2 Ends and roof with associated detail. (standard to suit All types, can suit more than one length, crease in fret to cut away to required coach)

If your target 'average / newbie modeller' is satisfied with one size suites all/none chassis, ends and roof then they'll be satisfied with the older generic Railroad RTR coaches and won't buy your kit. And those who aren't satisfied with generic chassis, ends and roof won't buy them either.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Wheatley

[Dunsignalling]

If your target 'average / newbie modeller' is satisfied with one size suites all/none chassis, ends and roof then they'll be satisfied with the older generic Railroad RTR coaches and won't buy your kit. And those who aren't satisfied with generic chassis, ends and roof won't buy them either.

There's a big difference between a generic chassis and one that is designed to make up in more than one configuration.  

 

An example that springs to mind is the Cambrian 9' wheelbase steel underframe kit, which includes alternative solebars to allow it to be used under 16'6" and 17'6" wagons.

 

John

[Coach bogie]

If your target 'average / newbie modeller' is satisfied with one size suites all/none chassis, ends and roof then they'll be satisfied with the older generic Railroad RTR coaches and won't buy your kit. And those who aren't satisfied with generic chassis, ends and roof won't buy them either.

I either did not explain it clearly or you missed the point. Moulding is produced to suit different lengths.

 

For instance. Look at the Comet GWR underframes, designed to suit various lengths with half etched holes for the different bogie positions. and crease lines to cut to the required lengths.

 

Same thing but in plastic, with a fret which would come with a selection of solebars (as Cambrian wagon kits, Haye development coach kits etc). Economies of scale production - keep tooling cost to a minimum. Look at Kirk kits which come with all sorts of 'extras'; or put ALL the parts on one fret rather than raising production costs by having a bespoke fret per coach.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited January 31, 2017 by Coach bogie

[billbedford]

Anyone done costings for all this stuff?

 

... or have any real idea of likely volumes?