Are we at a crossroads?

[Ian J.]

You are probably right, though in the past (ie when I was not yet ancient) people took up modelling despite the challenge of getting chassis to work. My first one was not great, but the thrill of making something that actually moved was enough to encourage later, better, efforts.

I agree that some basic chassis kits (simple fold-up, Romford wheels for easy quartering, even pick-ups planned and supplied) might help people take the step.

 

I think you've hit one of the nails on the head there. Two factors in chassis building that fox many people are alignment for free running, and a straightforward way of putting the pick up mechanism in place. Might I also add for kit building that sometimes the amount of fettling required to get pieces to fit together (certainly in the case of whitemetal) can also be very off-putting, as can poor designs that don't have any intrinsic way of locking accurately in place and staying together, instead relying on butt joins.

[PaulRhB]

When I started building etch kits back in 92 people were bemoaning no one built etch kits now. To be honest so many have tons of unbuilt kits then and now I don't think it's changed as much as you fear

I'm down to two etch kits and two 3D prints to build

[bike2steam]

Well there must be a few out there still building kits, I rang High-Level to order a few more gearboxes about 10 days ago. He'd sold out of the ones I need, and said more would be in stock in about 3 weeks - so, good to hear the demand is still there.

[PaulRhB]

Generally the biggest obstacles to building kits is patience followed by having the right tools. Frustration with it not working out is much more easily dealt with when there's a mentor saying that's ok, it happens, now try this.

I've seen several people get frustrated with soldering simply because they are trying to use too small an iron that can't transfer enough heat. Mind you when I did soldering at school what I had been taught by my father was much better than the teacher as cleaning the surfaces and bits wasn't taught there. Lead free solder is also much more likely to make a poor joint as it seems to fracture much more than lead solder leaving dry joints unless the two parts are held rock still, makes soldering wires a pain so I have a big stash of the 'dangerous' lead stuff!

[47137]

But there is a big gulf between RTR and kit built locos. People are just not Into soldering or brass these days. Having a chassis running smoothly is a daunting prospect for most on the model railway scene. What could be of use is an interim step of plastic loco bodies and tenders to run on a preassembled chassis or some easy to assemble chassis kits. Maybe a range of plastic mu kits to run on preassembled chassis.

I remember a time when people built body kits to go on RTR chassis, but this seems to be out of fashion nowadays. There is the Bratchell range of kits for multiple units, and they are very good. Bratchell recommend a relatively expensive motor bogie . . . I bought a remaindered Bachmann 2-EPB from Hattons with a view to taking the motor bogie and selling on the rest for spares.

 

I suspect, modern RTR has so much good detail, people are loathe to modify it.This used to be a good half-way house before kit building.

 

- Richard.

[Phil Parker]

You are probably right, though in the past (ie when I was not yet ancient) people took up modelling despite the challenge of getting chassis to work. My first one was not great, but the thrill of making something that actually moved was enough to encourage later, better, efforts.

I agree that some basic chassis kits (simple fold-up, Romford wheels for easy quartering, even pick-ups planned and supplied) might help people take the step.

 

Such as the DJH beginners kits? Well designed and easy to make BUT the R&D means they cost a lot for a small loco. I can't see there being much of a return for simple kits nowadays as the RTR chassis will be expensive. Slightly distort a prototype to fit an existing chassis and people start to get all snooty about the model. Odllty, not those who make kits who will accept the compromise, but those who don't and are looking for an excuse not to do any modelling.

 

Sadly, ARC models, who do just this sort of thing are giving up and someone mentioned DMUs - Charlie Petty used to do a range but I think this is being wound down too.

[PaulRhB]

Such as the DJH beginners kits? Well designed and easy to make BUT the R&D means they cost a lot for a small loco. I can't see there being much of a return for simple kits nowadays as the RTR chassis will be expensive. Slightly distort a prototype to fit an existing chassis and people start to get all snooty about the model. Odllty, not those who make kits who will accept the compromise, but those who don't and are looking for an excuse not to do any modelling.

 

Sadly, ARC models, who do just this sort of thing are giving up and someone mentioned DMUs - Charlie Petty used to do a range but I think this is being wound down too.

Yet Narrow planet are producing more and more in NG to fit easily available chassis. ARC is only closing because of the real job taking up more time not lack of support from his posting. It depends on the enthusiasm and time available to the cottage industries just as much. If I had unlimited time I'd be going for quite a few of the London Road kits but I just can't see me having the space for the layout I'd want and there are enough projects to keep me busy for a few years yet with the stock I have.

This is where clubs have an advantage over the net, actually being there gets you involved. I see that with 7 ¼ NG because you get the youngsters in as casual guards to earn a bit of cash they then just get involved and end up driving and it can start the interest for life. I've met a few who had little interest until they got involved that way.

[jjb1970]

I do think that the quality and diversity of RTR models fundamentally changed the hobby.

 

When I was but young I'd buy a Lima or Hornby model which was somewhat basic but which with work could be made into something very nice. I won't talk for others but for me it was a natural progression that slowly built up skills. I started by fitting flush glazing, that was very easy but transformed those old models and the risk of destroying the model was negligible. Then I'd renumber, little bit more risk but not much and it personalised the model. Then I'd fit air bags and ETH cables etc at one end. Again, a bit more risk but perfectly doable without needing advanced modelling skills. Then I'd start repainting, at that point I thought why not remove the moulded hand rails and fit wire hand rails, replace the cooling fan grills etc. So over time, through a natural progression I did end up doing quite a bit of real modelling. Now there is no need for people to follow that route.

 

On kits I never really got into model railway kits. I still build a lot of plastic and mixed media military vehicle and aircraft kits and one of the things that struck me when I dabbled in model train kits was the difference in quality in terms of fit of parts, ease of assembly, instructions etc compared with even basic low end aircraft and military vehicle kits. So while I did plenty of detailing and improving of RTR I never got into kits.

[rue_d_etropal]

I remember when the Crownline stall at exhibitions used to be the busiest at the exhibition. There were plenty of people who wanted to upgrade their models then. Sadly the improvements of past 16 years for r2r models has killed that part of the hobby. Still plenty of people who want to upgrade old models but getting hold of the bits is not so easy.

 

I think there are some of us still looking at ways to enjoy building layouts and adapting r2r. One reason why I am trying British HO. Might also explain increase in interest in narrow gauge modelling, which I also partake in.

Chassis building is not something I want to do, I prefer to use good quality r2r chassis. That is often what determines the models I build.

[PaulRhB]

I remember when the Crownline stall at exhibitions used to be the busiest at the exhibition. There were plenty of people who wanted to upgrade their models then. Sadly the improvements of past 16 years for r2r models has killed that part of the hobby. Still plenty of people who want to upgrade old models but getting hold of the bits is not so easy.

 

And they used to bemoan the need to do it too. Conversely it's easier than ever before to generate multiple parts yourself with custom etching services, 3D printing yourself or commissioned designs.

The hobby has changed again much like it did with the proliferation of affordable models post war. Remember this whole golden age we are discussing is only about 30 years.

I'd say there are more high quality layouts than ever before in the magazines. Go pick up a few random 70's and 80's mags at a preserved railway and compare to a spread from this year.

There were loads of people buying lots of Lima locos in the late 80's and 90's who never did anything to them

Let's stop predicting doom and look at sharing what you enjoy at shows and getting new people in and involved. Many have pointed out these opinions aren't new and yet we are still seeing new kits and oddball rtr models plus a greater number of rtr releases than there were when I grew up in the 80's.

I know from talking to people that others used to list their wants in the Hornby catalogue and I could usually get the new models I wanted by pestering for birthday or Xmas now even with a job there's probably 10-15 new models each year and no way I can justify all that.

I'm guessing that few of us would have bought 4 or 5 bullied Pacifics in the 80's in a couple of years yet there seem to be a lot with large collections of the current model and wanting to swap tenders etc for certain periods.

In conclusion I'm sorry but I think the hobby is only in danger if we give up and turn introverted hoping people will pick up a mag. Defy the lazy tabloid definitions and show the breadth of the hobby. Our club now holds an open day in the holiday just after Xmas and advertised it locally with a large number through the doors.

I give out flyers at shows with a list of materials and manufacturers to help anyone interested find the bits and pieces, it includes a link to Rmweb too.

Drones are everywhere, sphero gets their toys out in the media, Apple turned a phone into the ultimate desirable must have, it's all about exposure and people appreciate craft if they are exposed to it. Keep entrance fees to your show as cheap as possible and make money off refreshments and a secondhand sales table with commission. Looking at a show just as a cash cow can scare people off if you push it too far but consider adding some craft stalls with similar cross over skills. Warley is probably four to five times bigger than most club shows but only costs 2-3 times as much so I still see it as good value.

It's a shame the big RMweb show wasn't a success as I think in the right place it had huge potential as it was truly different and I'd have added it to the must go list.

[rue_d_etropal]

It is always difficult to judge what we may have seen before. Still one of the most influential layouts for me as Dave Rowe's Milkwood layout over 40 years ago. I remember it in magazines and in Central Hall Westminster, in a badly it corridor(?) almost under the entrance walkway. I also see loads of very poor layouts at exhibitions these days. Locos and rolling-stock are often unaltered r2r, the same kit built(and r2p) buildings, but possibly more skill in some areas,and less creativity.

Some might moan when they have to add extra detail to a loco, because the r2r does not have correct number of rivets, but I actually get a lot of satisfaction from achieving something. I know my limits, which is why I am not that keen on kits(I also want to be more creative, more inventive than just following instructions). I am heavily involved in designing for 3D printing. My background in IT helps, and I find I can achieve things could not by modelling in reality. It has big advantage that it costs me nothing , apart from a bit of electricity and my time to create something. It is closer to craft/skills than art, which is what I prefer doing, but I am learning, and letting it take me somewhere, I am not sure where yet. I have an idea, often inspired by what I read in magazines or on online forums, try something, see what happens and if it starts to grow take it to next stage.

The hobby is at a crossroads. Trouble is that these days one route is almost museum quality r2r(yet in 99% cases it is still the wrong gauge) and the other is to kit or scratch-build. Many in the hobby, are happy, and are capable of a third option, somewhere in-between. I know this, because of the positive reaction to my 3D printed designs. Otherwise I would concentrate on only a handful of designs, trying to get every rivet in place, and not actually achieving much.

[Tony Wright]

I think you've hit one of the nails on the head there. Two factors in chassis building that fox many people are alignment for free running, and a straightforward way of putting the pick up mechanism in place. Might I also add for kit building that sometimes the amount of fettling required to get pieces to fit together (certainly in the case of whitemetal) can also be very off-putting, as can poor designs that don't have any intrinsic way of locking accurately in place and staying together, instead relying on butt joins.

 

Have you tried the Poppyswood jig for chassis assembly? It ensures accurate frames, in all the main 4mm gauges, and can be used for rigid, sprung and/or compensated chassis. These are a set of frames for a Millholme H16 I'm making for a friend, in OO.

 

 

The most simple method of making pick-ups I've tried is to use .45 nickel silver wire, soldered to PCB strips attached to the bases of spacers between the frames (double-sided PCB, soldered to them), adjusted to bear on the backs of the insulated wheel rims and sleeved with small-bore PVC tube to prevent short circuits. 

 

Since this thread is more about discussion, I'm posting more on Wright Writes, where many of the questions posed here have been discussed at length. 

[jjb1970]

I think it is worth saying that the presence of superb RTR is not a bad thing. Whilst I have a lot of sympathy for some of the sentiments encouraging people to make kits, modify RTR and do real modelling I also think that the availability of such a wide range of excellent RTR is a very good thing.

[johnarcher]

I think it is worth saying that the presence of superb RTR is not a bad thing. Whilst I have a lot of sympathy for some of the sentiments encouraging people to make kits, modify RTR and do real modelling I also think that the availability of such a wide range of excellent RTR is a very good thing.

Sure, it's a good thing if people can get what they want, I don't want RTR myself but it's fine if it's there for those who do.

The only regret is if it becomes so dominant that it crowds out other approaches - I think the availability of a wide range of excellent kits and components is, for some of us, a much better thing - I'm not sure the two good things are compatible though.

To relate that to the crossroads question - I suppose two possible futures are

1. RTR dominance in 4mm continues, even increases, even fewer kits and bits around.

2. The numbers in the hobby reduce (as some have suggested due to age profile), and demand can't support that sort of RTR supply any more - leading to maybe a        shift back to a form of more making-based hobby, not as it was pre-RTR, but different due to new technologies.

[jjb1970]

I think there will always be tension between the availability of good RTR and interest in kits. Those kit builders who like kits for the joy of making something (and I can understand that as I enjoy kit building in other model hobbies) will still want kits regardless of the availability of RTR. However for those who saw kits as a way of getting models in the absence of good RTR then once they can buy RTR they're unlikely to want a kit and that does shrink the market. Unfortunately I'm not sure what the answer is, I certainly don't want to deprive kit builders of their hobby but equally I do understand why kit builders do not see it as worth their while to serve a market if they don't see a satisfactory return as a result of RTR competition.

[Reorte]

Generally the biggest obstacles to building kits is patience followed by having the right tools. Frustration with it not working out is much more easily dealt with when there's a mentor saying that's ok, it happens, now try this.

That's a great thing about the internet. I suppose it might require overcoming a little bit of trepidation but if I someone was to start a thread on my first loco build on here think that they'd get that mentoring. Sure, not everyone knows about RMweb but it's probably easier for most people to find it than to find a club these days (and when you do find the club you'll benefit from help and information that's spread through the internet to the club too, and vice-versa).

[Ian J.]

Dsc_3668.jpg

 

Have you tried the Poppyswood jig for chassis assembly? It ensures accurate frames, in all the main 4mm gauges, and can be used for rigid, sprung and/or compensated chassis. These are a set of frames for a Millholme H16 I'm making for a friend, in OO.

 

DSC_5042.JPG

 

The most simple method of making pick-ups I've tried is to use .45 nickel silver wire, soldered to PCB strips attached to the bases of spacers between the frames (double-sided PCB, soldered to them), adjusted to bear on the backs of the insulated wheel rims and sleeved with small-bore PVC tube to prevent short circuits. 

 

Since this thread is more about discussion, I'm posting more on Wright Writes, where many of the questions posed here have been discussed at length. 

 

I have somewhere in storage a Chassis2 jig that I can use, and I can figure my way around fitting pickups, so I'm not thinking of myself here (although I'm always looking for good practice examples I can learn from).

 

I was thinking of the problems new entrants to kit building have when they see a loco they like; find it isn't available in RTR; find out that it has a kit; buy said kit; then can't make head or tail of how to assemble it because so many elements of its design aren't straightforward and in some cases require a serious amount of extra tools (like jigs) to be able to assemble the kit into something that both resembles the prototype they wanted a model of and actually runs well enough to 'play with'.

[Phil Parker]

Depends if you see building as an enjoyable part of the hobby or just a means to an end. If you just "want something to pay with" then you have to live with with the limited range of RTR, although that's not much of a limit nowadays!

 

Most people buy and run what they like. If prototype fidelity is your thing then you need to build much more than rolling stock but you'll reap the benefits.

[PaulRhB]

Getting back to one of Andy's initial musings, demand and frothing may be causing manufacturers to offer bigger ranges that may not all deliver a return and hurt them long term.

We are all guilty of focusing on the bit of the hobby we enjoy and what worries me is the continued hints that one bit may be more important than another for the hobby. Model railways diverse skill sets in modelling, pure art, engineering, electronics and woodwork aren't common to many other hobbies so why would we expect many to be confident in all those disciplines? Is a rtr loco any 'worse for the Hobby' than a figure out of a pack or a rtr baseboard? Even someone commissioning a full layout is keeping someone employed and using all those skills.

We are seeing model shops closing but is that business transferring to the net or just no demand? The amount of product suggests it's changing where it comes from rather than lack of demand, much like forums are partly replacing a club night.

So are the smaller one man bands going to take over as they can stand this variety of subjects without the big staff overheads and shareholders?

As 3D printing evolves will the market change again and become even more individual with people updating freeware 3D files and printing them off?

[47137]

. . .

 Is a rtr loco any 'worse for the Hobby' than a figure out of a pack or a rtr baseboard?

. . . 

I reckon none of these is bad for the hobby, and they all help people to take part in other aspects of railway modelling which they enjoy more.

 

I do think, if you make models yourself you can choose your own criteria and standards and this gives you freedom. For example for an engine you could buy in a Westinghouse pump as a lost-wax casting or knock something up from fuse wire and sleeving. It's your choice and either ought to make you happy because you had the choice. But when you buy RTR, you can lose sight of your own criteria and tend to find fault with what you have bought, such as the fitting being in the wrong place, or the wrong type, or over/under size or whatever.

 

It is tempting to go further, and point out these shortcomings on the RMWeb, without much useful consequence but probably with some disappointment to the reader who simply wants to enjoy their purchase. So I suggest, the thing to suffer most from RTR is the forums. Going back to my quote from Paul, I am sure reviews of figures and baseboards are much less likely to cause such disappointment .

 

- Richard.

[Loconuts]

Andy asked 'are we at a crossroad regarding RTR models', well that crossroad is here and no one checked the sign post first. After the recent events of last week we are now in a turmoil and not sure what the future is going to be.

 

One thing that is certain with the falling of the Pound against the Dollar the imports from China are going to become more expensive therefore it stands to reason RTR models are going to follow suite. Do the manufacturers dumb down the models or carry on producing highly details models at a higher price? We will have to see.

 

Will heavy discounting continue?, can the manufacturers afford this practice with reduced profit margins? and will the customers base shrink in light of the higher prices? Also will the customers still have jobs? Will the government raise Income tax and VAT?

 

Changes to our life style will change in the coming years and until things settle down it is all a unknown.

 

Loconuts

[TheQ]

The main problem is the lack of diamond crossings,  Dr Beeching and his masters having removed huge chunks of the railway network, mean that those of us born after say 1970 have much less chance of being near a railway. Children like toys of things they can see, so unless a Dad or Granddad, take the child to the railways and or gives it a toy railway we are losing the modellers of the future. What ever happens it is almost certain the Toy and eventually Model railway market will reduce. This will give the remaining maufacturers a big problem, reduced sales will mean increased costs per item, which reduces sales etc.

Added to this is the lack of hand skills taught in schools, those of my vintage did woodwork and metalwork. Making things from drawings was taught to us, now with CDT or whatever the latest in grouping of such ideas is called, hand skills are now buried under under layers of technology. So those progressing on from Ready To Plonk modelling will also reduce.

 

Against this is the rise of technology, which in real terms always reduces in price, in real terms and increases in its ability. Laser cutting and 3d printing will be the way to go, BAE( Was British Aerospace) now use 3d printing for some Aircraft parts. I can  see Hornby eventually, if it survives, using that technology, but back in Britain, However it will only be a temporary respite for them as I believe they will lose to home 3d printing. The winners will be those selling 3D downloads to run on your printer. The toy market will probably survive to a certain extent but produced where an by who? it will first move on from China to India  and then probably to Africa as manufacturers go looking for cheap labour.

Metal printing is still beyond most people home economics but that won't be far behind, it would be quite possible to print an electric motor, metal tyre wheels etc at the moment it's too expensive but it will come down in price.

 

I've now reached the no Children, no Mortgage, stage. I have a huge increase in disposible income, even though I am on well below National average income. I can buy any model I feel like, however almost all of my models are second hand,  Just the USA 0-6-0 tank (where is it?) will be bought new this year i hope, no other new stock was bought in the last year or two.  (Can I have an S-160 too Please). There is so much secondhand stock available at shows and through my MRC from sadly departed modellers that new purchases will be rare. Older poorer detailed models don't worry me as I like updateing models. None of this helps Hornby or any other manufacturer.

As for track side Items, none of the buildings I want are commercially available so these will be scratchbuilt but using commercial items like doors and windows.

 

AS for Leaving the EU, I doubt it will make any difference to modelling railways other than some price changes, but in which way we will have some years to find out, depending on how / what our "leaders" manage to fumble around and get.

[Mike Riley]

I have spent much of my working life in Africa and Asia and I don't see the manufacture of model railways moving from China to India and Africa.  There are countries in South East Asia that will have lower wages than China in the future - Indonesia for instance with 250 million people.  One possibility is for CAD and moulds to be made in China with final production and assembly in lower wage countries which might include Burma and Laos..

 

But sadly I do feel that railway modellers are an ageing lot (me included) and there will be increasing volumes of rolling stock coming on to the s/h market as we pass on.  So I see a reduction in total production over the next 20 years and it may well be the smaller and nimbler firms like DJM that continue while Hornby and Bachmann either go out of business or concentrate on other hobbies.

 

I will go to the Exeter exhibition on Saturday and expect to see a preponderance of grey hair.

 

Mike

[rue_d_etropal]

On the subject of prices, there have been a lot of comments, and many reasons given. Prices will probably go up more now, but they should not do so till new orders are placed, assuming prices had been agreed and the exchange rate insurance paid(I know it has got some fancy name). More likely they will put prices up and blame it on the crisis, just pocketing the extra money(which will then have to go to the bank to pay off the extra interest on their loans).

Uncertainly in what is going to happen will do more harm, as some will think it better to not spend money, when I believe it is actually better to when life is uncertain. That way you can still have fun, you have something real you can use as barter if required, and it might actually reduce risk of a collapse. Compared to many things people spend their money on, model railways are possibly more future proof, even if you don't get all your money back, at least you can get some. Try selling old electronic equipment, or mobile phones etc. Even computers and TVs have no real resell value.

 

When people say that alternatives to model railways are taking over, think back to 1980, maybe slightly before that, and  check your old copies of RM, and look at the adverts from Beattries, with Commodore computer game machines being advertised. That is more than one generation ago, and we are still here.

I remember David Boyle saying that what the hobby needed was more fun , operational things. They are still common in the USA, but all we have had as a half hearted attempt at bringing back  Battle Space by Hornby, and good old Thomas. The problem might be that there was too much listening to a minority who wanted better models without thinking long term.

Some might think the computer games teenagers like as negative and destructive, but that is what they like and they spend a lot of money on them. Many also play games like Dungeons and Dragons(amazingly it is still very popular), and all the associated figures and models to build and paint. Hang on that does not sound very different to the average railway modeller. So maybe something game based and tactile, based on model railways. A proper revamp of the Battle Space range would be a start, and having ability to fire some missiles at punters who are causing trouble at exhibitions.....

Strangely enough it has worked the other way, with a massive increase in interest in computer simulation games for railway enthusiasts, so I think the fault is on our side of the fence.

There is too much emphasis on looking back at the golden age of railways, not surprising there is so much grey hair at exhibitions.

[Ozexpatriate]

I remember David Boyle saying that what the hobby needed was more fun , operational things. They are still common in the USA, 

Besides lots of sound options, or things like crossing barriers I don't really see the the 'play value' features so much here in the US.  It was true for O Gauge Lionel and H0 stuff years ago, but less so now.

 

There is a much greater acceptance of whimsical names and little cameos - the policeman writing a ticket, bikini car wash girls, or whatever - but the rolling stock models themselves are very detailed and fragile with very little 'play value' options other than sound. Things like sound fitted livestock cars or a recently introduced sound fitted water tower and crane come to mind but not log rollers or car dumpers of the old days.

 

The eyes move in the Bachmann Thomas sets but that's about it besides Cranky the crane. There are a lot more 'themed' trains - like Christmas sets - in the US.

 

I think there's perhaps still more of a sense of playful fun in US modelling but other than that I don't really see big differences except that, for now, the best British models are cheaper than comparable American ones.