Are we at a crossroads?

[Phil Parker]

I don't see why modem rtr is viewed by some as a problem when it could be an opportunity to say ok now you can get your layout up and running quick but how about building that oddball kit to go with it?

 

Not necessarily a problem, but a definte change. Once upon a time, modellers could tinker with an item of rolling stock and make improvements reasonably easily. Now the base mode is tood good/expensive to mess around with. That means the skills to build that "oddball kit" have to be aquired in one go rather than gradually built up. This normally means they are never aquired at all, which I think is sad, but then I'm stupid enough to enjoy making things.

[grahame]

Now the base mode is tood good/expensive to mess around with. That means the skills to build that "oddball kit" have to be aquired in one go rather than gradually built up. This normally means they are never aquired at all, which I think is sad, but then I'm stupid enough to enjoy making things.

I don't think anyone would suggest that an inexperienced new modeller should start hacking an expensive new model, but there are older cheaper ones that can be picked up relatively cheaply secondhand to practice on and learn new skills. Perhaps there should be more emphasis on adopting and developing such skills in the commercial magazines, on forums, by clubs and societies, at exhibitions, etc.

 

Nonetheless, regardless of the seeming reduction of modelling skills in the hobby, there is a balance to be had in the marketplace and potentially a place on layouts for RTR, kit and scratch built models.

 

G

[billbedford]

Prices never do seem to go down and there's always a reason attributed to it; currency exchange, energy costs, taxation, labour rates etc., and it has always been ever thus. So why now and why the problem? Minimum wage is not just a Western society issue, as China's economic and social growth continued so it came to be there; we've been told this is the case and evidence supports this.

 

 

 

Moderately rising prices, i.e. inflation, is built into most country's economic models. The problem has been that, for some time now, disposable incomes for many people in this country have been falling relatively to what people have come to expect. The reasons are mainly political, but whether they are the politics of commission or commission is an argument for another place.

[coachmann]

Knowing I'm not the only person receiving emails for model railway suppliers,  RTR priced have not only come down but are plummeting on some models. Anyone with no fixed ideal and who buys what they fancy must be having a field day. 

[PaulRhB]

. Once upon a time, modellers could tinker with an item of rolling stock and make improvements reasonably easily. Now the base mode is tood good/expensive to mess around with. That means the skills to build that "oddball kit" have to be aquired in one go rather than gradually built up. This normally means they are never aquired at all, which I think is sad,

But there's plenty of secondhand or basic Railroad to learn on still. I started out building O gauge locos in thick card on butchered Lego motor units and Hornby wheels and repainting some of my models from early train sets. The Hornby WD 'Task Force' 08 went into Yeoman blue and an HST acquired Comic Relief livery!

I agree that messing with an expensive rtr model is nerve wracking unless you know what you're doing but I didn't start with my most expensive Hornby Mallard and my first etch kit was also chosen for it's ease of assembly after taking advice.

Forums such as this can provide similar advice like my club friends did and it's up to the modeller to consider and filter the advice by looking at several sources when the poster is new to them. I was lucky to have known and helped my mentor run his layout for a few years before I really got into doing it myself and got plenty of help and encouragement as he never expected me to reach his level instantly but encouraged me to run my more basic models alongside his. As my skills grew I can produce decent models but he's continued to raise the bar but he's never looked down on those following behind on the same ladder

[Phil Parker]

I don't think anyone would suggest that an inexperienced new modeller should start hacking an expensive new model, but there are older cheaper ones that can be picked up relatively cheaply secondhand to practice on and learn new skills. Perhaps there should be more emphasis on adopting and developing such skills in the commercial magazines, on forums, by clubs and societies, at exhibitions, etc.

 

Nonetheless, regardless of the seeming reduction of modelling skills in the hobby, there is a balance to be had in the marketplace and potentially a place on layouts for RTR, kit and scratch built models.

 

G

 

I've spoken to lots of people at shows and there is a simple choice to make:

 

A) Nice shiny model stright from the box that can be considered perfect.

 

B) Cheap base model that will require work and skill. Even once complete, they feel it is no way as good as the results of option A.

 

Now, I know how much fun making stuff is, and I do meet people who have found the same thing but they are fewer and further between than they used to be. All sorts of excuses are trotted out - time, money, lack of skill etc. but often it's simply that handing over money for a top quality model is more appealing than messing around with glue and paint. Retail therapy is fun and if you have limited skills (or at least believe you do) then you convince yourself that buying=good making=bad. It's not right, but it is easier.

[grahame]

I've spoken to lots of people at shows and there is a simple choice to make:

 

A) Nice shiny model stright from the box that can be considered perfect.

 

B) Cheap base model that will require work and skill. Even once complete, they feel it is no way as good as the results of option A.

 

 

There are a few flaws in that reasoning. Firstly, it assumes both options are of the same prototype but as we all know not all prototypes are available as a shiny new RTR model. There is, of course, the possibility that a little work and skill applied to that cheap base model can turn it in to something else not available RTR.

 

And secondly, who said that a bashed and scratch built model has to be the equal to a commercial RTR option. There is no statute or police enforcing such thinking. There are many layouts where RTR and kit and scratch built stock runs perfectly happy side by side. A home made model can be just as loved as a RTR one and will have solicited pride and enjoyment in the making. Plus, of course, practice makes perfect - they will get better and you will end up with a larger roster of stock.

 

Finally a little effort in detailing the RTR model such as adding crew, weathering, re-numbering, correcting errors, etc., will turn it in to a better and more unique model.

 

G.  

[PaulRhB]

To be honest I wouldn't try to beat the better rtr stuff so I concentrate my skills elsewhere. I also know people who have bought models on holiday as there were nice rtr models but their main hobby is not trains and only the nice finished model led to them becoming a railway modeller. One has since progressed to building a proper layout as something to do indoors.

Programmes like James Mays Hornby and Airfix and scalextric Toy Stories seemed to enthuse lots of kids so maybe people need to think about engaging more personalities into doing tv about models rather than just relying on Pete Waterman to bang the drum

Our club show organiser tried to introduce a wargaming display but was voted down I thought that was a great way to bring in more people.

[Phil Parker]

And secondly, who said that a bashed and scratch built model has to be the equal to a commercial RTR option.

 

The people I try to persuade to have a go. One of the excuses is that the result won't be as good.

 

That's not my reasoning but the excuses I have been given many, many times at shows. It's wrong, and I know a personalised model can be loved far more than a RTR one (I feel that way) but for many, the money is all they can see. The RTR model MUST be better because it cost money and came in a shiny box.

 

Personally, I throw the box away and "ruin" the model in the eyes of collectors with dirt and detail, but that's just me.

[grahame]

The people I try to persuade to have a go. One of the excuses is that the result won't be as good.

 

That's not my reasoning but the excuses I have been given many, many times at shows. It's wrong, and I know a personalised model can be loved far more than a RTR one (I feel that way) but for many, the money is all they can see. The RTR model MUST be better because it cost money and came in a shiny box.

 

Yep, I appreciate it is not your reasoning, but it is still an excuse and flawed thinking. Results don't have to be as good. It's also an unrealistic expectation. If I decide to cook something for the first time I cannot expect it to taste and look as good as a 3 star Michelin chef's effort. But it doesn't stop me having a go.

 

Personally, I throw the box away and "ruin" the model in the eyes of collectors with dirt and detail, but that's just me.

 

Perhaps that is part of the problem in trying to target 'collectors' - their raison d'etre is just 'collecting' models exactly as manufactured, as perfect as possible and that are never run. I don't think there is much point in trying to encourage them to pick up a modelling knife and tube of glue - that is not what their hobby is about. A broad brush modelling marketing approach will be wasted on them.

 

What we need to target and appeal to is the potential modeller - people who want to build and run a layout. People who like to use their hands and be creative. People who will get fun and enjoyment out of playing with their models, be that putting them on track and simply operating them, or fiddling, changing and improving RTR ones or building their own.

 

G.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Providing an open door to the hobby, as suggested by Phil Parker, Grahame Hedges and others above clearly does matter. I have a feeling that it happens mostly by a fairly natural 'osmosis'. I was in the Haworth station shop on Thursday afternoon, talking to a chap much my own age who was rather tempted by the models in the display cabinet. Cannot play golf satisfactorily any more following a leg injury, always liked model railways...

 

Without wanting to make this political I'll be cutting right back on discretionary spending until I get a better idea of what will happen as I just see too many risks ahead and if hard times are approaching there are more important things to worry about than model trains etc.

 My counter perspective is 'the future happens come what may, just carry on normally'. The Great British public have handed every concerned public servant and politician at home and abroad a great big bouncing and troublesome baby. They'll be so busy attempting everything in their limited power to minimise any further boat rocking - if they are wise - that future prospects if anything look rosier in my view. No time or capacity to plan and execute their own wild and tendentious experiments in the public realm when the peasants are revolting...

[siltec]

A problem many hobby's suffer from is when too many people seem to be too good it starts putting people off. Many shows are basically full of art works demostrating three dimensional scenery modelling rather than a model railway. Some shows though do have an eclectic mix where older layouts of Hornby or Triang kit is on show. Usually attacting a bit of attention as the trains are always running.

 

The orignal question was about a cross roads. Well I think the merging of scenery and trains happen long ago. If there is any divergence it will be towards more interest in older train sets, such as Trix and Hornby Dublo.

 

Personally as someone interested in too much i have a small collection of small battery train sets. Spanish made Pequetren are very interesting and look out for the little one around. At the moment Train Set in a Tin for £9.99 at Waterstones and 'Mankind'. By the way this is the full price. I acquired the same set, no tin but same loco, trucks and track for £1 from Poundland. A slightly larger set can sometimes found for around a fiver in Works and the like. usually an oval with a couple of points. Gauge by the way is 12mm, yest they run on TT track.

 

David

[grahame]

A problem many hobby's suffer from is when too many people seem to be too good it starts putting people off.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't subscribe to that.

 

Firstly there is the inspiration to want to do well and improve when you see high class efforts. I was never put off playing football and getting to a reasonable standard by watching professional games. When I eat at a top class restaurant it doesn't put me off doing some cooking. Seeing superb models doesn't put me off having a go. And how do you think those modellers' got that good - they had to start somewhere and practice to improve.

 

Secondly it is vague and general comment. How many is 'too many'? And at what standard is a model 'too good? Are modellers not allowed to improve and then show/exhibit their efforts?

 

G

[The Stationmaster]

Not necessarily a problem, but a definte change. Once upon a time, modellers could tinker with an item of rolling stock and make improvements reasonably easily. Now the base mode is tood good/expensive to mess around with. That means the skills to build that "oddball kit" have to be aquired in one go rather than gradually built up. This normally means they are never aquired at all, which I think is sad, but then I'm stupid enough to enjoy making things.

 

I think you've hit a very important point there.  In the dim and distant past in an attic not far away but now long gone I 'needed' a pannier tank or two.  Although not quite right the Triang-Hornby one was a reasonable donor so the handrails were cut/shaved off and the sites cleared up, handrail knobs and a  couple of thicknesses of wire provided replacements, fine florists wire provided for the 'grill' behind the cab backplate windows, the same wire hammered and flattened/shaped as i went made lamp irons and the bracket on the bunker back for fire irons, the wheels and axles went in the bin and were replaced (with suitable bearings) with Romford's offerings, the coupling rods were filed down,the result was painted, transfers and etched numberplates were added, and I had a passable pannier tank.  In that process I used or acquired various skills.

 

Nowadays I (and everyone else of course) can buy far more accurate ones - in three different versions from Mr Bachmann, the only thing they need are new numberplates and a sloshing of filth and my choice of couplings and possibly replacing the lamp irons - virtually no new skills and unless I buy a pre-owned one or a cheapie I (and others) start with something which costs quite a bit and thus might not tempt the knife or razor saw out of the drawer, or even need it to be tempted.  Whitemetal bodyline kits although far from wonderful were a good way to find out if you could tackle such things and to discover that low-melt solder was the best thing since Eames 40 flux.  Again another possible route to develop skills and confidence (or make a fool of yourself at reasonable cost) which no longer exists although Comet did get rather near the idea with some of their complete loco kits.

 

So in reality what has happened is that the hobby has changed - might be for the worse, might be for the better but change is the definite bit - and it won't stop, whatever route it takes.

[Andy Hayter]

I half agree with the concept of the "cost of a remodel" arguement.

 

I can however only half agree since back in the 80s I bought a Jouef 141 R (2-8-2) for its chassis and a 231K (4-6-2) for the body and tender.  Each was around £50 at a time IIRC that  a Flying Scotsman was around £19.99 ( with flangelass centre drivers - one of many reasons I was looking at French models) .  The conversion to produce a 141 C (2-8-2 tender loco) then cost me around 5 x the going rate for a standard loco. 

 

It was with some trepidation that I started the project.  But the biggest fear is fear itslef and once started this proved an easy and successful conversion.

For me this is a bit like opening the box of an expensive kit and looking at the bits ( and maybe the instructions) for several days before starting.

 

Sometimes I think you just have to gird up the loins and just do it.  Teeth griited, hoping it will not end up as a pile of expensive (s)crap.

 

You will surprise yourself.

[Phil Parker]

Yep, I appreciate it is not your reasoning, but it is still an excuse and flawed thinking. Results don't have to be as good. It's also an unrealistic expectation. If I decide to cook something for the first time I cannot expect it to taste and look as good as a 3 star Michelin chef's effort. But it doesn't stop me having a go.

 

 

But that's you. And me, and quite a few other modellers. Sadly, it's not how many others think though. They are convinced that if the model they make isn't as good as the best they can buy then it's wrong.

 

Worse, they excuse this by inventing people who will tell them it is wrong. All in aid of not having to try.

[grahame]

But that's you. And me, and quite a few other modellers. Sadly, it's not how many others think though. They are convinced that if the model they make isn't as good as the best they can buy then it's wrong.

 

Worse, they excuse this by inventing people who will tell them it is wrong. All in aid of not having to try.

Yep, agree, but it's still flawed thinking and needs pointing out to them. After all if you accept the philosophy of not trying to do things because at first it won't be perfect you would never learn to drive (because others can drive better and some drive professionally), to read, to learn things at school, to bake a cake (because you can buy better), to hold down a job involving a skill, or to do a huge number of tasks that require dexterity. It's an excuse that doesn't hold water. How do they cope?

 

And of course it is possible to make or bash models that are not available to buy RTR.

 

G

[Horsetan]

.....Sometimes I think you just have to gird up the loins and just do it.  Teeth griited, hoping it will not end up as a pile of expensive (s)crap.

 

You will surprise yourself.

  

 

..... Sadly, it's not how many others think though. They are convinced that if the model they make isn't as good as the best they can buy then it's wrong.

 

Worse, they excuse this by inventing people who will tell them it is wrong. All in aid of not having to try.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? Then try again. Fail again.

 

Fail better."

[PaulRhB]

They are convinced that if the model they make isn't as good as the best they can buy then it's wrong.

All the more reason to just look at other items to cut their teeth on and learn skills. If they can get a layout up and running and consider it a learning process then those good rtr models will help them keep the enthusiasm. I tore out the viaduct and lumps of scenery several times as I built my RhB layout and often told people that at shows to show it doesn't mean starting all over again.

Also my US collection has upgraded as new superdetail models come along because I'm not really into detailing those as I'm more interested in the overall scene.

All these points just show that we need shows aimed at the general end to include a variety of levels of finish.

This topic has reminded me I need to make a feature of my display boards on Lulworth saying this is all rtp buildings and off the shelf track with just one kit too. I built it to prove you could make a pleasing layout fast and it gives me somewhere to just play with my eclectic OO models.

There are some excellent have a go demos with simple plastic kits aimed at kids, maybe we need to do the same for adults alongside it?

[Phil Parker]

Yep, agree, but it's still flawed thinking and needs pointing out to them. After all if you accept the philosophy of not trying to do things because at first it won't be perfect you would never learn to drive (because others can drive better and some drive professionally), to read, to learn things at school, to bake a cake (because you can buy better), to hold down a job involving a skill, or to do a huge number of tasks that require dexterity. It's an excuse that doesn't hold water. How do they cope?

 

 

I've been there pointing it out many, many times.

 

How many of them bake cakes? And how many just own cookbooks and a microwave?

 

Sorry, but lots of "modellers" do nothing buy buy stuff and put it in a cupboard. Retail therapy is fun and modelling can appear hard. Magazines are full of step-by-step projects but those of us who write them know that most people enjoy the read, look at the pictures and say they will have a go "one day".

 

Of course those who give it a go often discover it's great fun but it's not nearly as many as I'd like to see. The idea of plastic kit building sessions for adults and kids is great, but I have a horrible feeling that most of the grown-ups would need to be dragged to a seat to have a go. The kids don't need any such encouragement.

[Andrew F]

Maybe it's best to go for it and not be bothered about how you compare to others. You may get hooked and go your own way.

[Legend]

But there is a big gulf between RTR and kit built locos. People are just not Into soldering or brass these days. Having a chassis running smoothly is a daunting prospect for most on the model railway scene. What could be of use is an interim step of plastic loco bodies and tenders to run on a preassembled chassis or some easy to assemble chassis kits. Maybe a range of plastic mu kits to run on preassembled chassis.

[grahame]

Sorry, but lots of "modellers" do nothing buy buy stuff and put it in a cupboard. Retail therapy is fun and modelling can appear hard.

Those sort of people can't really be considered potential 'modellers' and are more akin to 'collectors'. As already mentioned, it is probably a waste of time marketing 'modelling' to them as they see it as an alternative hobby to what they are interested in - purchasing and collecting. The business about not being able to match RTR standards is mostly an excuse or a mind set block.

 

We ought be considering those that want to be creative and want to build and operate a model railway layout. I'm sure that there are people like that but who have no idea of how to get started nor get any encouragement. The hobby tends to be a solitary activity and, speaking from experience, it does little to reach out to those type of people. If we are at a crossroads and concerned for the future of the hobby then IMO that is the road we should take.

 

G.

[johnarcher]

But there is a big gulf between RTR and kit built locos. People are just not Into soldering or brass these days. Having a chassis running smoothly is a daunting prospect for most on the model railway scene. What could be of use is an interim step of plastic loco bodies and tenders to run on a preassembled chassis or some easy to assemble chassis kits. Maybe a range of plastic mu kits to run on preassembled chassis.

You are probably right, though in the past (ie when I was not yet ancient) people took up modelling despite the challenge of getting chassis to work. My first one was not great, but the thrill of making something that actually moved was enough to encourage later, better, efforts.

I agree that some basic chassis kits (simple fold-up, Romford wheels for easy quartering, even pick-ups planned and supplied) might help people take the step.

[johnarcher]

Those sort of people can't really be considered potential 'modellers' and are more akin to 'collectors'. As already mentioned, it is probably a waste of time marketing 'modelling' to them as they see it as an alternative hobby to what they are interested in - purchasing and collecting. The business about not being able to match RTR standards is mostly an excuse or a mind set block.

 

We ought be considering those that want to be creative and want to build and operate a model railway layout. I'm sure that there are people like that but who have no idea of how to get started nor get any encouragement. The hobby tends to be a solitary activity and, speaking from experience, it does little to reach out to those type of people. If we are at a crossroads and concerned for the future of the hobby then IMO that is the road we should take.

 

G.

Agreed, often when people talk about finding new entrants to the hobby they emphasise making it seem as unchallenging as possible, showing what you can do quickly with basic unaltered RTR/RTP, and not discouraging people by showing anything that needs much skill or effort.

There is no doubt a place for that approach, but I doubt it will attract the people you talk of in your second paragraph, they may already be into some other sort of modelling or craft and have some skills, or enjoy learning them.

There's room for both sorts, but it is attracting the second variety that will keep a viable market for the bits and pieces and materials that make making practical for those who do want to move on to it.