C&L Finescale

[Lecorbusier]

They don't.  Or at least not with the Scalefour Societ rivets (which I have).  Their rivet heads are 2mm in diameter.  The circular void in the base of an Exactoscale chair is approximately 1.75mm in diameter.  The void in the base of a C&L chair may be 2mm in diameter but it is hard to tell because it is largely blocked up and is much too shallow to accommodate a rivet head.

 

As for preference, I'm having to carry out a lot of remedial work to the P4 points I built using ply sleepers and Exactoscale chairs as they have suffered from gauge narrowing due to the fact that the gauges I used when I built the track held the rail upright, whileas the chairs are apparently meant to hold the rail at a slight protoypical angle and after the gauges were removed the chairs gradually relaxed into their inwardly angled position.  I don't know if the same applies to C&L chairs.

 

DT

Unfortunately it does .... I had the same problem. I now use the exacto gauges which don't clamp the rail vertically so it finds its own position. On the cosmetic chair to mask rivet front - I have found that a liberal use of butanone allows the chair to seat over the rivet - but as I say rivets are few and far between on my track.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Joseph

 

At least once if not more the owner stated he was unable to draw an income from the business as the running costs swallowed up the gross profits. Other lines were taken on to provide additional income for the business,

 

It was the increasing costs of the lease, business rates and employing staff that were the main issues.

 

 

 

John,

 

I don't think that we see this at all differently.

 

Current owner inherited some of the problems (or rather the consequences of those problems). Adding new product lines to help cover fixed costs makes sense but it is not a free option. It takes time and so distracts from the running of the core business. How often do we see this in the corporate world?

 

C&L is by no means the first small producer in our sector to get into problems through leasing premises that could not be supported by the sales volumes.

 

It's nice to have a retail margin. But for most producers (and I include Hornby in this), it's much better to focus on production and leave retailing to retailers. Fox Transfers did very well to set up a shows unit which was effectively standalone from the production side.

[hayfield]

Unfortunately it does .... I had the same problem. I now use the exacto gauges which don't clamp the rail vertically so it finds its own position. On the cosmetic chair to mask rivet front - I have found that a liberal use of butanone allows the chair to seat over the rivet - but as I say rivets are few and far between on my track.

 

 

Both C&L and Exactoscale chairs have the correct cant designed into the moulding, when using either the correct gauges must be used

 

Its been a known problem for as long as I know, in 00 gauge there are no issues as the standards will accommodate this,   But for P4 and EM gauges the previous owners after Len Newman failed to impart the message. The old and new Exactoscale gauges were designed to cope with this, the trouble is that gauges designed for both Copperclad and ply and rivet construction are designed to hold the rail upright

 

There are some simple modifications to older gauges (depending on which type and issue they have) which have been discussed on this forum. I would strongly advise those building in P4 and using plastic chairs to buy both the standard and gauge widened sets

 

4XX TG01  gauge widened

4XX TG02  stand gauge

 

I would buy 2 packs of the gauge widened ones as a standard gauge is included

 

As for fitting over rivets, Watford and District old layout Callowland used this method, perhaps they had smaller headed rivets

Edited June 13, 2018 by hayfield

[Torper]

There are some simple modifications to older gauges (depending on which type and issue they have) which have been discussed on this forum. I would strongly advise those building in P4 and using plastic chairs to buy both the standard and gauge widened sets

 

And I would strongly advise the manufacturers of these products to include a note to that effect with their product.  Then people like me, who didn't know about the problem and merely used gauges that had served me well in the past, might then buy and use the gauges to which you refer.

 

DT

[RichardS]

Uhmm. 

 

• If by anonymous. You mean I don't have a photo of me in my avatar on the off chance you happen to be wandering around Serup , a village about 8 miles from Silkeborg in Central Jutland and will be able to recognise me, then I plead guilty. But only because it's a bad idea https://www.computerworld.com/article/2509942/data-privacy/profile-pics-on-social-media-sites-pose-privacy-risk--researcher-warns.html On the other hand just two clicks away from my post you will find my RM blog with picture of me, my family and the model of Chard junction that I have been building for the past few years.
• One of the things that is anonymous and will remain so it the amount of PRIVATE communication I have had with some of the people who are helping Phil, as to how I can be of service. 
• I never demanded 'a right' to anything. I merely pointed out that given a choice of two suppliers I would choose that which gives the best service.

Unless you have never bought a pint of milk at a supermarket because it was easier than trudging down to the village shop, not bought a rare book on Amazon rather than trying to find it I a local book shop, or avoiding buying a six pack of beer rather than support your local pub then I suggest a couple of items you may be interested in asking for down you local model shop: 

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/greenhouse.html and https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/dark-brown-rocks.html

 

Anonymity - I don't understand why people don't use their real names on these forums. I am of course assuming that Vistiaen is not your real name. Perhaps it is. Nor is there a signature.   The point being that it is always easy to stand on an ego sustaining soap box - which is what these forums are really - when nobody has any idea who you really are.  My own view is that no posts should be permitted unless the originator's own name appears - this applies to Twitter, Facebook, everywhere. But that's just my view  There would be less of the offensive and often vile trolling if people were made to be accountable for their public comments.  (I'm not suggesting any of the excesses apply to this dialogue) 

 

If folk generally are worried about privacy - don't go online. There's scores of places information can be obtained by hackers other than model railway forums - where the most contentious information available might be one's views of a toy train and the accuracy of its whistle moulding (for example.)  Basic identity information is easily obtained from non-internet sources. For example your name and address appear on almost every letter your postman delivers.

 

Your Computer World link by the way goes to a 'page not found' - well it does for me.

 

Now that you've told us of your offer to be of service to C&L I'm not sure I understand your sentiments about trading with them or a competitor. But there we are. As I have never offered to invest time and effort in support or to help my local corner shop, book shop or pub whether I shop there or with a major retailer is I feel rather irrelevant. But if I had I would support them if I could even if things cost a bit more. But that's me. If I didn't propose to trade with them I would be unlikely to offer to be of service to them in the first place.

 

John (Hayfield) has kindly suggested, in another post, that I might not understand the difficulties and frustrations of sourcing goods across frontiers when the supplier might not be up to speed. He is of course correct I have no direct experience but I have had a friend living in Europe who experienced supply difficulties  due to the distance. I suggested that he should let me know what he wanted and then I would source the items meaning that the sale was in the UK either at an exhibition or by internal mail order or in a shop. Such a strategy could be helpful for others with friends in Blighty who might be willing to help especially where contacting a retailer from abroad proves difficult.  (This is meant to be a constructive suggestion)

 

One muses what impact Brexit might have if there are additional delays to goods because of customs problems. Once again we shall see what happens. 

 

For me it's time to draw a line under this increasingly pointless strand of this overall thread.

 

I just hope Phil gets sorted out so that everybody can move on.

[Vistisen]

Anonymity - I don't understand why people don't use their real names on these forums. I am of course assuming that Vistiaen is not your real name. Perhaps it is. Nor is there a signature.   The point being that it is always easy to stand on an ego sustaining soap box - which is what these forums are really - when nobody has any idea who you really are.  My own view is that no posts should be permitted unless the originator's own name appears - this applies to Twitter, Facebook, everywhere. But that's just my view  There would be less of the offensive and often vile trolling if people were made to be accountable for their public comments.  (I'm not suggesting any of the excesses apply to this dialogue) 

 

If folk generally are worried about privacy - don't go online. There's scores of places information can be obtained by hackers other than model railway forums - where the most contentious information available might be one's views of a toy train and the accuracy of its whistle moulding (for example.)  Basic identity information is easily obtained from non-internet sources. For example your name and address appear on almost every letter your postman delivers.

 

Your Computer World link by the way goes to a 'page not found' - well it does for me.

 

Now that you've told us of your offer to be of service to C&L I'm not sure I understand your sentiments about trading with them or a competitor. But there we are. As I have never offered to invest time and effort in support or to help my local corner shop, book shop or pub whether I shop there or with a major retailer is I feel rather irrelevant. But if I had I would support them if I could even if things cost a bit more. But that's me. If I didn't propose to trade with them I would be unlikely to offer to be of service to them in the first place.

 

John (Hayfield) has kindly suggested, in another post, that I might not understand the difficulties and frustrations of sourcing goods across frontiers when the supplier might not be up to speed. He is of course correct I have no direct experience but I have had a friend living in Europe who experienced supply difficulties  due to the distance. I suggested that he should let me know what he wanted and then I would source the items meaning that the sale was in the UK either at an exhibition or by internal mail order or in a shop. Such a strategy could be helpful for others with friends in Blighty who might be willing to help especially where contacting a retailer from abroad proves difficult.  (This is meant to be a constructive suggestion)

 

One muses what impact Brexit might have if there are additional delays to goods because of customs problems. Once again we shall see what happens. 

 

For me it's time to draw a line under this increasingly pointless strand of this overall thread.

 

I just hope Phil gets sorted out so that everybody can move on.

Hi Richard say hello to my ignore list. Thank you and good night 

[Horsetan]

...I would strongly advise those building in P4 and using plastic chairs to buy both the standard and gauge widened sets

 

4XX TG01  gauge widened

4XX TG02  stand gauge

 

I would buy 2 packs of the gauge widened ones as a standard gauge is included...

This of course assumes that they are available and you can physically get hold of them.

[gismorail]

I think this thread has gone off the main subject some time ago ....I hope Phil has a really successful three days at the Great Central Show this coming weekend ......he deserves some luck 

[sharris]

As for preference, I'm having to carry out a lot of remedial work to the P4 points I built using ply sleepers and Exactoscale chairs as they have suffered from gauge narrowing due to the fact that the gauges I used when I built the track held the rail upright, whileas the chairs are apparently meant to hold the rail at a slight protoypical angle and after the gauges were removed the chairs gradually relaxed into their inwardly angled position. I don't know if the same applies to C&L chairs.

 

DT

I don't know which gauges you used, but I saw somewhere (I thought maybe in Iain Rice's track book, but not so sure now) that the trick is not to press the gauges down too hard - possibly you could shim them so that the rail can only enter to the depth of the head. I think the C&L and Exactoscale chairs also have something of an automatic gauge widening function as the 1:20 cant tends to straighten up on curves - not sure if that means you shouldn't use 3-point gauges with them to avoid a double helping of gauge widening! Edited June 13, 2018 by sharris

[Torper]

I don't know which gauges you used, but I saw somewhere (I thought maybe in Iain Rice's track book, but not so sure now) that the trick is not to press the gauges down too hard - possibly you could shim them so that the rail can only enter to the depth of the head. I think the C&L and Exactoscale chairs also have something of an automatic gauge widening function as the 1:20 cant tends to straighten up on curves - not sure if that means you shouldn't use 3-point gauges with them to avoid a double helping of gauge widening!

You're quite correct.  When placed on the rails, my gauges went all the way down over the rail - there was no need to press them though I effectively did so by weighting them to hold the track evenly down to help the butanone stick the chairs to the sleepers.  It duly did that, but at the expense of subsequent gauge narrowing. I suppose one of the good things about chairs is that if you do have to slightly alter their position its much easier than with rivetted track.  Anyway, hindsight is a wonderful thing and if I have to build any more track I'll be using different gauges (assuming, of course, that gauges and chairs will still be available then!)

 

DT

Edited June 13, 2018 by Torper

[hayfield]

And I would strongly advise the manufacturers of these products to include a note to that effect with their product.  Then people like me, who didn't know about the problem and merely used gauges that had served me well in the past, might then buy and use the gauges to which you refer.

 

DT

 

 

DT

 

I do agree with you on this one, but then why were C&L selling 00 gauges without informing folk that the check rail part of the gauge is set to DOGA Fine standards and will not work with most RTR stock, or the ready made common crossings are designed for 00SF & DOGA fine standards, not 00/H0 universal standards

 

Part of the issues were that the company changed hands so often, K&L/C&L sold there own gauges (the sprung aluminum ones) in 00. EM & Protofour. The initial instructions were of their age, Certainly Peter once he was made aware of the issue both described them correctly and rewrote the instructions, but how many users have ever read either C&L or Exactoscale's instructions ?. You could say a self inflicted problem

 

In my opinion the quality of gauges is quite poor, both in design and material. Also unless you are a member of a society availability is also very patchy, with most designed for copperclad construction which holds rail vertically. For instance how many know about the D.D.Wheelwrights block gauge with crossing alignment aid, a cracking bit of kit and is available from both the EM and Scalefour societies respectively

 

Back to your question, it is common knowledge that the rail is held at an angle, not upright, so to some extent its also down to the user to read the instructions that come in the kits  

[hayfield]

This of course assumes that they are available and you can physically get hold of them.

 

 

They were easily available and as far as I know still are

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_384_385

 

Now I am not certain but I would always double check the C&L standard roller gauges for gauge widening issues, as the odd though out the wrong way could cause problems

[Torper]

Back to your question, it is common knowledge that the rail is held at an angle, not upright, so to some extent its also down to the user to read the instructions that come in the kits  

 

I suppose I was aware at the back of my mind that on the prototype the rail is held at a slight angle, but I didn't know that that was also the case with the Exactoscale and C&L chairs and that they wouldn't work properly with the gauges I had and had used successfully on ply and rivet construction - had I known I would have bought the appropriate track gauges.  I didn't buy a kit - I bought the chairs in packs and there were no instructions or warnings with these.  Nothing complicated is required - I would merely suggest that it could be stated on the approriate web page, and ideally in a note included with the packs, that the chairs will hold the rails to a protoype angle and that in order to avoid gauge narrowing specific gauges are recommended (and are for sale!).

 

DT.

[martin_wynne]

I suppose I was aware at the back of my mind that on the prototype the rail is held at a slight angle, but I didn't know that that was also the case with the Exactoscale and C&L chairs and that they wouldn't work properly with the gauges I had and had used successfully on ply and rivet construction - had I known I would have bought the appropriate track gauges

 

Hi DT,

 

I have posted this stuff several times on RMweb and elsewhere. The problem with these forums is that there is no A-Z index to find things:

__________________________________

 

Whichever gauges you use, if you use functional chairs (which hold the rail at 1:20 inclination) you need to ensure that the gauge slot engages only the head of the rail, like this:

 

If your gauge slots are too deep and engage the full depth of the rail (thus forcing it vertical), simply put some filler in the slots so that they don't. An easy way to do that with roller gauges is to wind some soft copper wire into them (fuse wire).

 

The full-depth slots are intended for soldered copper-clad or riveted ply construction.

__________________________

 

Martin.

[Stephen Freeman]

To be honest, much has always been made of the prototypical cant from day 1.

 

I don't think the sprung gauges (original type) were made of aluminium,(not still made, I have them in both 00 and P4), I wouldn't know about the modern P4 gauges.  It is sometimes useful to be able to take the old type apart. The current C&L roller gauges, as far as I know, only hold the rail head any way.

 

I do know about DD Wheelwrights excellent gauges and indeed have occasion to use them. I'd be careful about using Brook Smith gauges on canted chaired track though.

[Horsetan]

Hi DT,

 

I have posted this stuff several times on RMweb and elsewhere. The problem with these forums is that there is no A-Z index to find things:

__________________________________

 

Whichever gauges you use, if you use functional chairs (which hold the rail at 1:20 inclination) you need to ensure that the gauge slot engages only the head of the rail, like this:

 

If your gauge slots are too deep and engage the full depth of the rail (thus forcing it vertical), simply put some filler in the slots so that they don't. An easy way to do that with roller gauges is to wind some soft copper wire into them (fuse wire).

 

The full-depth slots are intended for soldered copper-clad or riveted ply construction....

Maybe there's a (limited) market for canted gauges, to suit those who mainly use rivet-and-ply?

[martin_wynne]

Maybe there's a (limited) market for canted gauges, to suit those who mainly use rivet-and-ply?

 

How would you remove them from the track after it is soldered canted?

 

In my view canted rail is an utter no-no in 4mm scale. Nobody can actually see it, and it makes it all but impossible to make proper conical set bends and knuckle bends without serious press equipment. Even the prototype had difficulty, hence the vertical flat-bottom rail used in pointwork renewals from about 1970 to 2001.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Maybe there's a (limited) market for canted gauges, to suit those who mainly use rivet-and-ply?

 

 

Ivan

 

Wrong way round, any soldered construction (Rivet and ply or copperclad) needs to be held upright, its using the plastic chairs that need the correct gauges.

[Horsetan]

Point taken.

[hayfield]

Was the pun intended ?

[jjb1970]

Anonymity - I don't understand why people don't use their real names on these forums. I am of course assuming that Vistiaen is not your real name. Perhaps it is. Nor is there a signature.   The point being that it is always easy to stand on an ego sustaining soap box - which is what these forums are really - when nobody has any idea who you really are.

There are perfectly good reasons which are entirely explicable. Many members here work for 1:1 railway companies, if they were clearly identifiable with their RMWeb presence then they would be unable to engage in discussions about 1:1 railway subjects as candidly as they do in case they violated company policies and put their employment in jeopardy. Plenty of others engage in candid discussions on a wide range of subjects in the OT section which they wouldn't feel comfortable about if they risked having it thrown in their face at work. Vistiaen could walk past me in a corridor and I'd have no idea who he was but I've seen enough of his posts to appreciate him as a genuine enthusiast who has contributed enough to RMWeb posts that I really don't consider that he needs to justify himself in any way. I read his posts on this thread and they struck me as eminently reasonable, to be honest he isn't the ego on a soapbox in this thread.

[Crosland]

There are perfectly good reasons which are entirely explicable. Many members here work for 1:1 railway companies, if they were clearly identifiable with their RMWeb presence then they would be unable to engage in discussions about 1:1 railway subjects as candidly as they do in case they violated company policies and put their employment in jeopardy.

 

I think you will find posting "banned content" under a nom-de-net will still be a violation of such company policies.

[LBRJ]

I think you will find posting "banned content" under a nom-de-net will still be a violation of such company policies.

 

Very probably, but its a whole lot harder for "them" to find you

[Vistisen]

There are perfectly good reasons which are entirely explicable. Many members here work for 1:1 railway companies, if they were clearly identifiable with their RMWeb presence then they would be unable to engage in discussions about 1:1 railway subjects as candidly as they do in case they violated company policies and put their employment in jeopardy. Plenty of others engage in candid discussions on a wide range of subjects in the OT section which they wouldn't feel comfortable about if they risked having it thrown in their face at work. Vistiaen could walk past me in a corridor and I'd have no idea who he was but I've seen enough of his posts to appreciate him as a genuine enthusiast who has contributed enough to RMWeb posts that I really don't consider that he needs to justify himself in any way. I read his posts on this thread and they struck me as eminently reasonable, to be honest he isn't the ego on a soapbox in this thread.

And now that my typo in my profiename is corrected (thanks Andy). I would just like to add that Vistisen IS my surname. I married a Dane

Edited June 15, 2018 by Vistisen

[Sheffield]

Well I have receivved my C&L items, and am a satisfied customer On the one occasion I telephoned Phil I got an immediate answer, and my question was fully resolved. I wish him well.