C&L Finescale

[Vistisen]

It's very easy to comment on anything these days via online forums with the sanctuary of anonymity and the safety net of distance.

 

It's also very easy to find fault with the behaviour of others. We humans are adept at this in all spheres of life.

 

We find it far harder to offer solutions.

 

If individuals are unhappy with the C&L situation I observe that any of us had the chance to buy C&L and to run it as we perceive to be 'the right way.'

 

In fact anybody could offer to buy it from him now. For the right price he might sell who knows.

 

Any of us could volunteer to lend the proprietor a hand to sort things out. He might not accept. But apart from John (Hayfield who helps at shows) has anybody offered?

 

Any of us could start a new business making track components.

 

There's only so much point in negatively criticising a situation for so long, after a while the activity becomes utterly pointless.

 

Then is the time to take alternative actions in pursuit of your personal goals.

 

There is always an alternative.

I don't want to buy the business. It's hard enough to buy their products as I live in Denmark! I Do want to buy track making components. To be honest The phone is not more likely to be answered than an e-mail. It took more than a couple of weeks for me to get through by phone. As soon as there is a second option for purchasing exactoscale chairs and all the other bits that I want, then it will simply be a case of the company that provides the best service gets my orders.

[Lecorbusier]

I kind of hope Phil at C&L doesn't read this thread. When buying things from him at shows and discussing the venture with him, he does appear to have inherited a number of issues. Trying to sort such things out alongside learning the ropes of a new venture and running the business at the same time is a fair old juggling act. As in any new job it takes time to learn the ropes and stop running to catch up. Hopefully this is now starting to happen. 

 

I also like the fact that he is a keen modeller himself.

[RichardS]

I don't want to buy the business. It's hard enough to buy their products as I live in Denmark! I Do want to buy track making components. To be honest The phone is not more likely to be answered than an e-mail. It took more than a couple of weeks for me to get through by phone. As soon as there is a second option for purchasing exactoscale chairs and all the other bits that I want, then it will simply be a case of the company that provides the best service gets my orders.

 

Thank you for your totally anonymous contribution (not even a picture - of anything) which I feel illustrates some of my earlier points rather. 

 

A new slant introduced by your post is the inference of a 'right' to be able to buy the parts and if not the threat to transfer business. "I am customer meet my needs or suffer the consequences." 

 

Many on this and other forums 'should like to be able to buy' - but if impossible; 'putting one's parts on' or 'getting stroppy' is hardly likely to magically generate a solution to the situation. 

 

It is an interesting interpretation you make of there being a second future source for Exactoscale parts. I had rather assumed that Exactoscale/Andrew Jukes - of whom much is clearly expected - would be the only source rather than there being a choice of suppliers, at least in the short or even medium term. I'm sure we shall find out in due course. 

[LBRJ]

This thread seems to have gone into an imaginary for/against how C&L now operate with both sides getting a bit ****** ( i put stars in to save the auto mod a job)

 

Why not just leave it until something a bit more concrete actually transpires??

[AndyID]

Why not just leave it until something a bit more concrete actually transpires??

 

Not exactly concrete, more plastic really, but something has already transpired. With a bit of effort anyone can have their own very convincing chairs printed at the likes of Shapeways, and they are not expensive.

[LBRJ]

Not exactly concrete, more plastic really, but something has already transpired. With a bit of effort anyone can have their own very convincing chairs printed at the likes of Shapeways, and they are not expensive.

 

That could be off some interest, if say no one else makes them at some point in the future Do these people also happen to print quite good lengths of  flexi-track on their 3 d printing machines?

[AndyID]

That could be off some interest, if say no one else makes them at some point in the future Do these people also happen to print quite good lengths of  flexi-track on their 3 d printing machines?

 

That's entirely possible although you might have to thread the rails into individual chaired sleepers to keep the cost down. Not difficult with a simple assembly jig. The gauge can be anything you want.

 

You can also print turnouts, or bits of turnouts. The timbers and chairs on this sample were printed as one plastic component (most of the rails were too, but that's another story.)

 

[Lecorbusier]

Not exactly concrete, more plastic really, but something has already transpired. With a bit of effort anyone can have their own very convincing chairs printed at the likes of Shapeways, and they are not expensive.

What glues bond 3d printing? are there any which act as a solvent in a similar manner to Mek or Butanone? How brittle is the material?

[Stephen Freeman]

What glues bond 3d printing? are there any which act as a solvent in a similar manner to Mek or Butanone? How brittle is the material?

They are the 2 main problems - Superglue and very. Printing in ABS is possible but it's smelly and the resolution, more importantly, isn't as good.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Stephen Freeman

[Horsetan]

Thank you for your totally anonymous contribution (not even a picture - of anything) which I feel illustrates some of my earlier points rather. 

 

A new slant introduced by your post is the inference of a 'right' to be able to buy the parts and if not the threat to transfer business. "I am customer meet my needs or suffer the consequences." 

 

Well, at least he's being brutally honest. And he may not be the only one either, as everyone's out for the bigger better deal nowadays.

 

Race to the bottom?

[RichardS]

Well, at least he's being brutally honest. And he may not be the only one either, as everyone's out for the bigger better deal nowadays.

 

Race to the bottom?

 

Undoubtedly. And there's nothing wrong in looking for the best deal provided consumers don't screw themselves in the process. 

 

Clearly Andrew, unless he is a charity, will expect a return on his reinvestment in Exactoscale. Phil at C&L has to make a living too.  As Martin Wynne observed sometimes contracting the range and distribution is a means to ensuring profitability. We see this with the similar voluntary arrangements being entered into by high street stores such as House of Fraser which is closing half it's shops in an attempt to avoid administration. 

 

Whether the market will sustain two competing providers of track components is debatable. If C&L could not survive with the combined range for whatever reason, two sole traders will be far more vulnerable. At the very least I expect price rises, reduction of ranges and eventually only one supplier again.

 

There will be much more leaping in the air and 'knicker waving' from the disgruntled before this saga settles down.

[Horsetan]

....Whether the market will sustain two competing providers of track components is debatable. If C&L could not survive with the combined range for whatever reason, two sole traders will be far more vulnerable. ....

 

In this context, one of those providers has considerably deeper pockets than the other and was a not inconsiderable force behind Exactoscale's expansion after Bernie Weller died, so your indirect prophecy of "only one supplier again" may well come to pass.

 

I'm not a track builder, but I do find these developments intensely fascinating.

[hayfield]

There is only so much one man can do in a working day and remain sustainable lomg-term.

 

If there is too much work for one person there are only 2 options:

 

1. get more people. Expensive and risky, and a whole new set of responsibilities.

 

2. reduce the amount of work. That can be done by reducing the number of lines (no Carrs, no Peco, no Exactoscale), and/or by reducing the demand. Maybe by choosing a way of working which appeals to fewer customers (no emails, no web site, sae for a list, send a cheque, ...).

 

If you reduce demand you can eventually reach an equilibrium position where your days are nicely filled providing a first-class service to the group of customers who are happy to deal with you in your preferred way. The others will go elsewhere and leave you in peace. The result is that you are still there 20 years later. Not much richer, but maybe happy.

 

Martin.

 

 

I think you have nearly hit the nail on the head, certainly the business was very run down and far more work was/is still required to get the track part of the business into a healthy state than it was initially thought

 

Certainly the past two if not 3 owners have found the business would not stand on its own two feet with plastic track parts alone, also it needs both a mail order side and direct retail (shows) to exist along with other complementary products.

 

Things have and are still getting better, its not an overnight process as the business will only support one person. He's doing his best to resolve matters, perhaps not as quickly as some would like, but the business has lacked investment for quite some time. Don't forget the original sale fell through, Phil picked up the pieces and is basically starting a new company, unlike the previous owner who took over an operational business with trained staff

[Horsetan]

.....Don't forget the original sale fell through, Phil picked up the pieces and is basically starting a new company,....

 

That's never easy. I don't think any of us would want to be in Phil's shoes.

[hayfield]

It did not seem to be doing that badly. But nor was it strong enough to survive the ill-health of its then owner.

 

To an extent, I do think that the business had extended itself too much. But I can't be sure as I don't have all the facts relating to that period.

 

 

Joseph

 

Sorry but the business was on the market for quite some time, with little or no interested buyers in sight. The owner had to stop going to shows due to ill health, not stop working in it!!

 

At least once if not more the owner stated he was unable to draw an income from the business as the running costs swallowed up the gross profits. Other lines were taken on to provide additional income for the business,

 

It was the increasing costs of the lease, business rates and employing staff that were the main issues.

 

To survive the business needed to either go back to its roots, which is a cottage industry. Or be taken over by a company who was able to manufacture the parts themselves and integrate the range into the existing business. No one seemed to want to take on the second option 

[hayfield]

I don't want to buy the business. It's hard enough to buy their products as I live in Denmark! I Do want to buy track making components. To be honest The phone is not more likely to be answered than an e-mail. It took more than a couple of weeks for me to get through by phone. As soon as there is a second option for purchasing exactoscale chairs and all the other bits that I want, then it will simply be a case of the company that provides the best service gets my orders.

 

 

It must be a nightmare trying to model a UK prototype from abroad, whilst the mainstream should be easily obtainable buying specialist parts must be hard. It took me several months to find a show where GW models were present to buy a set of rolling bars, Still waiting to find Masokits plus get a filing jig for common crossings larger than 1-8, Hopefully Scaleforum might resolve matters, but I may be on holiday !!

[hayfield]

Undoubtedly. And there's nothing wrong in looking for the best deal provided consumers don't screw themselves in the process. 

 

Clearly Andrew, unless he is a charity, will expect a return on his reinvestment in Exactoscale. Phil at C&L has to make a living too.  As Martin Wynne observed sometimes contracting the range and distribution is a means to ensuring profitability. We see this with the similar voluntary arrangements being entered into by high street stores such as House of Fraser which is closing half it's shops in an attempt to avoid administration. 

 

Whether the market will sustain two competing providers of track components is debatable. If C&L could not survive with the combined range for whatever reason, two sole traders will be far more vulnerable. At the very least I expect price rises, reduction of ranges and eventually only one supplier again.

 

There will be much more leaping in the air and 'knicker waving' from the disgruntled before this saga settles down.

 

 

Richard

 

I think both will survive along side each other and may attract slightly different clientele. Might be like Slaters and Gibsons, both catering for different scales or gauges. Exactoscale track never had a large show presence prior to C&L tie up, so will be interesting to see how it pans out and Phil may have an extended run on his own if Exactoscale is off the market for an extended period (as per Andrews posting) or will the tie up with C&L be extended now the dust has settled

 

I think the advance of 3D printing will at some time start to make inroads into the track building business with its cheaper set up costs, just needs the printing costs to reduce and a bit more advancement in both materials and maximum sizes. But this is a digression

 

What is good is that track building is on the menu and being talked about, 

[Guy Rixon]

Not exactly concrete, more plastic really, but something has already transpired. With a bit of effort anyone can have their own very convincing chairs printed at the likes of Shapeways, and they are not expensive.

 

I found two products in scales smaller than 7mm on Shapeways by searching for "rail chair". One is a set of just "chairs" (actually clips for FB rail, by the look of things) in HO that works out at £7.54 per metre (but the spruing is hugely wasteful of machine space and I think the price could be lowered by a factor of a few). The other is a proof-of-concept sample by Coastline models including functional chairs and sleepers that set the chairs to EM gauge and this costs ~£10 for a length of track long enough to display a wagon. Both products are in SFDP (a.k.a. FUD).

 

Personally, I would not trust FUD for functional chairs. I think it's too brittle. The other plastics offered by Shapeways would not, IMHO, give good enough detail and anyway they are not dimensionally so stable as FUD, so could sometimes cause problems in fitting to the rail. (It would be nice to be proved wrong on this.)

 

For my own trackwork, if I ever get to it, I plan to use ply-and-rivet parts from the S4 Society stores. I will then find some way of printing up cosmetic chairs to added after the track is working. I'm fairly confident that the latter can be held down to below £5 per metre, possibly even lower, if the print is carefully tuned. If I do this for myself then those cosmetic chairs will be available for others to buy.

[Torper]

Although I have no plans to build track at the moment, were I to do so I would much prefer to revert to ply and rivet construction provided that suitable cosmetic chairs that could be added relatively easily were available.  As far as I'm aware, that is not presently the case - trying to add Exactoscale or C&L chairs to riveted track is something of a nightmare.

 

DT

[Lecorbusier]

Although I have no plans to build track at the moment, were I to do so I would much prefer to revert to ply and rivet construction provided that suitable cosmetic chairs that could be added relatively easily were available.  As far as I'm aware, that is not presently the case - trying to add Exactoscale or C&L chairs to riveted track is something of a nightmare.

 

DT

There are benefits to using the Chairs structurally. If you pre-curve the rail using a base template such that there are no stresses in the system, then the chairs themselves hold the rail but allow for expansion and a degree of movement. There is also no heat involved in the connection. Ply and rivet is a rigid joint reliant on a soldered connection and there is no real allowance for thermal movement. It is also much quicker to use functional chairs than to use them cosmetically in order to hide rivets - and you have to solder the rivets first.

 

There are advocates of both methods amongst the great and the good .... I suppose you pay your money and you take your choice. 

[sharris]

Although I have no plans to build track at the moment, were I to do so I would much prefer to revert to ply and rivet construction provided that suitable cosmetic chairs that could be added relatively easily were available.  As far as I'm aware, that is not presently the case - trying to add Exactoscale or C&L chairs to riveted track is something of a nightmare.

 

DT

 

For a club layout I started track-laying a long time ago (that one never came to fruition in the end) which used ply and rivets, I think I riveted probably every 3rd sleeper or so and glued them to the template. Then I threaded onto the rail enough chairs to fit between the riveted ones, soldered the track to the rivets making sure I remembered to space the chairs correctly before soldering, glued the chairs to the non riveted sleepers and then cut more chairs down the middle, gluing them each side of the rivets. I don't remember it being that much of a nightmare. The most difficult part was probably counting out the chairs in the first place and making sure the chocks went the right way. 

 

Of course, if you're adding them afterwards, you'd have to cut every chair in half first! 

 

I can imagine adding chairs to copperclad would be something of a different proposition.

Edited June 13, 2018 by sharris

[Vistisen]

Thank you for your totally anonymous contribution (not even a picture - of anything) which I feel illustrates some of my earlier points rather. 

 

A new slant introduced by your post is the inference of a 'right' to be able to buy the parts and if not the threat to transfer business. "I am customer meet my needs or suffer the consequences." 

 

Many on this and other forums 'should like to be able to buy' - but if impossible; 'putting one's parts on' or 'getting stroppy' is hardly likely to magically generate a solution to the situation. 

 

It is an interesting interpretation you make of there being a second future source for Exactoscale parts. I had rather assumed that Exactoscale/Andrew Jukes - of whom much is clearly expected - would be the only source rather than there being a choice of suppliers, at least in the short or even medium term. I'm sure we shall find out in due course. 

 

Uhmm. 

 

• If by anonymous. You mean I don't have a photo of me in my avatar on the off chance you happen to be wandering around Serup , a village about 8 miles from Silkeborg in Central Jutland and will be able to recognise me, then I plead guilty. But only because it's a bad idea https://www.computerworld.com/article/2509942/data-privacy/profile-pics-on-social-media-sites-pose-privacy-risk--researcher-warns.html On the other hand just two clicks away from my post you will find my RM blog with picture of me, my family and the model of Chard junction that I have been building for the past few years.
• One of the things that is anonymous and will remain so it the amount of PRIVATE communication I have had with some of the people who are helping Phil, as to how I can be of service. 
• I never demanded 'a right' to anything. I merely pointed out that given a choice of two suppliers I would choose that which gives the best service.

Unless you have never bought a pint of milk at a supermarket because it was easier than trudging down to the village shop, not bought a rare book on Amazon rather than trying to find it I a local book shop, or avoiding buying a six pack of beer rather than support your local pub then I suggest a couple of items you may be interested in asking for down you local model shop: 

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/greenhouse.html and https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/dark-brown-rocks.html

Edited June 15, 2018 by Vistisen

[hayfield]

Although I have no plans to build track at the moment, were I to do so I would much prefer to revert to ply and rivet construction provided that suitable cosmetic chairs that could be added relatively easily were available.  As far as I'm aware, that is not presently the case - trying to add Exactoscale or C&L chairs to riveted track is something of a nightmare.

 

DT

 

 

Both C&L and Exactoscale standard and slide chairs have circular voids under the chair, cut the chair in half and they should fit over the rivet. Though for many track building has moved on some what from soldering rail to rivets as there seem to be far more benefits not using an all rivet construction or even a partial rivet construction method. But each to their own preferences, life would be very boring if we all did the same. 

[hayfield]

Uhmm. 

 

• If by anonymous. You mean I don't have a photo of me in my avatar on the off chance you happen to be wandering around Serup , a village about 8 miles from Silkeborg in Central Jutland and will be able to recognise me, then I plead guilty. But only because it's a bad idea https://www.computerworld.com/article/2509942/data-privacy/profile-pics-on-social-media-sites-pose-privacy-risk--researcher-warns.html On the other hand just two clicks away from my post you will find my RM blog with picture of me, my family and the model of Chard junction that I have been building for the past few years.
• One of the things that is anonymous and will remain so it the amount of PRIVATE communication I have had with some of the people who are helping Phil, as to how I can be of service. 
• I never demanded 'a right' to anything. I merely pointed out that given a choice of two suppliers I would choose that which gives the best service.

Unless you have never bought a pint of milk at a supermarket because it was easier than trudging down to the village shop, not bought a rare book on Amazon rather than trying to find it I a local book shop, or avoiding buying a six pack of beer rather than support your local pub then I suggest a couple of items you may be interested in asking for down you local model shop: 

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/greenhouse.html and https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/dark-brown-rocks.html

 

 

I think Richard was trying to bring a bit of sense to the thread and does not know of the issues some are having obtaining items who live outside the UK, Phil is aware of these issues and is trying to find a better solution, one course of action was fine for those east of GMT time zone but totally un-practicable  for those west of GMT. Hopefully the measures temporally to aid the mail order backlog will be removed and communication becomes easier.  

 

Also there was and perhaps still are some issues with sending out oversize parcels, I think most of these issues have been resolved, but in some instances there were problems. As I said it really is more like a start up rather than taking over an existing business, with some of the issues that presented themselves

[Torper]

Both C&L and Exactoscale standard and slide chairs have circular voids under the chair, cut the chair in half and they should fit over the rivet.

 

They don't.  Or at least not with the Scalefour Societ rivets (which I have).  Their rivet heads are 2mm in diameter.  The circular void in the base of an Exactoscale chair is approximately 1.75mm in diameter.  The void in the base of a C&L chair may be 2mm in diameter but it is hard to tell because it is largely blocked up and is much too shallow to accommodate a rivet head.

 

As for preference, I'm having to carry out a lot of remedial work to the P4 points I built using ply sleepers and Exactoscale chairs as they have suffered from gauge narrowing due to the fact that the gauges I used when I built the track held the rail upright, whileas the chairs are apparently meant to hold the rail at a slight protoypical angle and after the gauges were removed the chairs gradually relaxed into their inwardly angled position.  I don't know if the same applies to C&L chairs.

 

DT