The Ghost of IKB Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I know that i will be instantly shot down in flames by people more knowledgable than me on this subject by saying this, but surely there are more similarities between an 86 and an 87, than there are between an 87 and a 90, yet it seems people think a 87 will follow on from Bachmann's lesser spotted (mythical?) 90, whereas DJM can't make a 86 and a 87 as part of the same project. Surely the bulk of the body is identical, cab end excepted, bogie frames shared between 86/1 and 87, mechanisms and inside gubbins identical, pantographs shared in some cases too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of IKB Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I already got an 86 so I went for an 87 86 5.jpg Although I am very partial to any thing with a pantograph on top so I would be happy with either or both. John Yes it's nice and shiny but even that 86 would look better in BR blue with a yellow bonnet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I think the rumours of the fantasy Bachmann 87 have come from alledged comments from somewhere that Bachmann were designing their 90 chassis with "passive provision" for it to be used in a future 87, but as you rightly point out, the 90 is some way off yet and things may have changed. You are also correct, superficially there is more similarity between an 87 and an 86 and I did wonder (and perhaps Dave might be able to shed some light on this) whether, seeing as the idea seems to be to develop a "Swiss Army Knife" set of tools to produce the multi-farious variations of Class 86, if there are sufficient similarities between the two designs, the 86 tools could also include slides to create an 87 seeing the bulk of the bodyshell is superficially similar. To be honest, I've not closely looked at the 86 and 87 body to see if there are too many detail variations to make such an option difficult and maintain the objective of developing the definitive RTR model of whichever class is chosen, but it might be worth opening up the discussion to include those who have made such a study in their modelling to advise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 To be honest, I've not closely looked at the 86 and 87 body to see if there are too many detail variations to make such an option difficult and maintain the objective of developing the definitive RTR model of whichever class is chosen, but it might be worth opening up the discussion to include those who have made such a study in their modelling to advise. After having a close look, the only difference I can see on the body sides is that the class 87 door has an extra handle on the drivers door lower down so as to be operable from track level, and the position of the small flap on the cab side is slightly different. All bodyside grills/windows - including cab side appear to be identical. If you had a separate moulding for the door that would solve the door handle problem - maybe an excuse to offer opening doors as a feature? They do have very different bogies and underframe equipment, but if they share the same bogie wheelbase the same chassis could be used for both. Interestingly the flexicoil suspension arrangement seems identical to both classes, so no change in flexicoil/damper/body interface required. Of course that is not so relevant to the 86/0, but then that is an issue that you would have to address if you were making an 86/0 irrespective of whether you were doing a n 87 as well. So body wise it is pretty much just a different front - I think even the cab roof is the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of IKB Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 As this photo shows, at least some of the 86' had the lower door handle too, although the cab roof on the 87 does have an extra 'slot' below the main grille. https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8090/8450403200_51802680b5_b.jpg Looking at more photos it seems that by the late 80s/early 90's most had gained the extra door handle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 As this photo shows, at least some of the 86' had the lower door handle too, although the cab roof on the 87 does have an extra 'slot' below the main grille. https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8090/8450403200_51802680b5_b.jpg Looking at more photos it seems that by the late 80s/early 90's most had gained the extra door handle I had not noticed the extra slot, good spot. That 86 has class 87 bogies too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 For what its worth I compared a Hornby 86 with a Lima 87 Assuming both models are reasonably accurate. & we all know what happens when you assume The overall body shape seems the same Cab front windows 2 vs 3 Roof details are different Under body details Battery box, Compressor, Fuel tank, etc. are different Axle spacing and bogie centres the same A chassis with all wheel drive & pick up no underbody detail and no sideframes. this chassis could be used for any loco with the same wheelbase and bogie centre Bogies with inside bearings that the side frames clip onto. These bogies could be used for any loco with this wheel base A clip on body Clip on underbody details with room for a speaker Clip on bogie side frames John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of IKB Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 There's practically as much in common between a 87 and a 86 than an early batch class 40 boiler fitted and a late batch 40 non-boiler (different ends, roof, cantrail grilles, under frame tanks) and they are the same class. DJM Dave do both of them! (the electric I mean not the 40's) On second thoughts yes, do the 40's as well! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 The votes seem to have stabilized at 118 and 97 for the Class 86 and Class 87 respectively. Agree with "The Ghost of IKB"...I'd like both! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 id say that main reason the 86 has a slight lead is that youre appealing to more people due to the sheer number of varieties you have with the Class so the closeness in votes is at this stage a little misleading and I say favours the 87 more. Given that there was only 36 x class 87s, they had one design of bogie, no early headcode display panels and far fewer liveries than the 86 (that carried Anglian, RES, Freightliner, Railfreight, Rail Blue/Electric Blue etc) the voting for the Vans looks to be doing quite well comparatively. Id also suggest that to please everyones varying tastes in class 86s, DJM would not be able to cover all the nuances of the class even if he lived in a cave for the next 50 years doing nothing other than rolling out new class 86 releases. If he did then surely limited runs would be needed of each incarnation. there is an appeal in that though if one is looking for a positive. I just wonder about the scale of the task in taking on the 86.......The Heljan model cannot be used as a comparison as they only did 5 models then stopped, all the same bar the paintjob, easy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I know that i will be instantly shot down in flames by people more knowledgable than me on this subject by saying this, but surely there are more similarities between an 86 and an 87, than there are between an 87 and a 90, yet it seems people think a 87 will follow on from Bachmann's lesser spotted (mythical?) 90, whereas DJM can't make a 86 and a 87 as part of the same project. Surely the bulk of the body is identical, cab end excepted, bogie frames shared between 86/1 and 87, mechanisms and inside gubbins identical, pantographs shared in some cases too. All valid points but they have already been raised - see earlier posts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Note that the wipers on the Class 86 are fixed above the windscreens. On the 87 the fixing is above the main hand rail at the bottom of the screens. the 87s have the front and rear markers in a single "cluster" on each side however the lower markers appear to be in roughly if not the same position as the single units on the 86 and both equipped with the smaller grab rails on the outside edges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I'm happy that the Class 87 has come so far....agree with ToF, with it's lesser variations and fewer liveries, it's scored quite well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 If my AC fleet ever saw the light of day again (outside of a Viking burial at dusk), I'd go for the 87 as modelling them 20 years ago took more time and effort than an 86, and consequently are outnumbered by 12 to 1. Also, I think there is less variation within the class, apart from '101s different roof and 004s oddly spaced TDM cables. But then again, I'd like to see one in HO or continental N, as much as I liked hearing them from my house, their second career in Bulgaria is much more interesting and on the "Top 10" layouts I'll build one day list. I can't say whether I'd support crowd-funding an 86 or 87 as I really do believe the main manufacturers (including DJM) are missing a trick by not having it in their catalogues, the livery variations would keep it in production for years (unless you get GWR syndrome where someone doesn't buy it because it's the wrong diagram/livery). Instead, I'd go for an 84... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I just wonder about the scale of the task in taking on the 86.......The Heljan model cannot be used as a comparison as they only did 5 models then stopped, all the same bar the paintjob, easy. The Dapol 86 was one of Dave's I believe - and that covered pretty much all of the cab front variants apart from original condition I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted July 11, 2016 Author Share Posted July 11, 2016 The Dapol 86 was one of Dave's I believe - and that covered pretty much all of the cab front variants apart from original condition I think. Covered original too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Covered original too. Oooh - sweet - we didn't get a release without a sealed headcode box did we? (should probably actually look at my C&M 86 to check this shouldn't I..?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shunny Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I went for the 87 as feel its the perfect partner for those new Oxford MK3 coaches and Bachmann's new Freightliner wagons although I have a feeling I will have Dave's 86 or 87 before the wagons! Ps can you do the Intercity executive lettering in Silver to match my Hornby HST Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevpeo Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Also, I think there is less variation within the class, apart from '101s different roof Wasn't it the last six or so that had a differing roof layout? 101 had the round 'pods' on the cab roof too of course. Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 86s also worked Mk3 stock! In fact I remember when at primary school seeing the prototype HST Mk3 coaches being tested attached to a regular West Coast Mk2d rake, which would have been in about 1972 (Summer, we were having classes outdoors in the afternoon and I remember the coaches passing around 2pm!) which stood out because of their distinctive livery and longer length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 11, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2016 86s also worked Mk3 stock! Oh yes... class 86s worked MK3s all the time. in the 1980s.. http://www.railpictures.net/photo/119088/ In the 1990s.. http://www.theironroad.net/ElectricLocomotives/Class-86/Virgin-Trains/i-Bvmvx4R/A In the 2000s http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=15574526598&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2FTags%2F86233%2FRecent%3Fsearch_type%3DTags%3Btextinput%3D86233%3Bphoto_type%3D250%3Bmethod%3DGET%3Bnoform%3Dt%3Bsort%3DDate%2520Posted%252C%2520new%2520first%23pic15574526598&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/60539035@N02/15574526598 and today.. http://sisuktrainpix.smugmug.com/ClassbyClass/Class-86/Class-86-1/i-3J8W42Q Don't forget 86s were dragged about, off the wires too on diversions, but attached to the train, when the WCML was shut. I'm sure an 86 has been down the S&C at some point. Somewhere I have pictures of 86s being dragged around Bolton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Wasn't it the last six or so that had a differing roof layout? 101 had the round 'pods' on the cab roof too of course. Kev. I don't recall any major roof differences between 87/0s, but 101 had a vastly different oil header tank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of IKB Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Oh yes... class 86s worked MK3s all the time. in the 1980s.. http://www.railpictures.net/photo/119088/ In the 1990s.. http://www.theironroad.net/ElectricLocomotives/Class-86/Virgin-Trains/i-Bvmvx4R/A In the 2000s http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=15574526598&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2FTags%2F86233%2FRecent%3Fsearch_type%3DTags%3Btextinput%3D86233%3Bphoto_type%3D250%3Bmethod%3DGET%3Bnoform%3Dt%3Bsort%3DDate%2520Posted%252C%2520new%2520first%23pic15574526598&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/60539035@N02/15574526598 and today.. http://sisuktrainpix.smugmug.com/ClassbyClass/Class-86/Class-86-1/i-3J8W42Q Don't forget 86s were dragged about, off the wires too on diversions, but attached to the train, when the WCML was shut. I'm sure an 86 has been down the S&C at some point. Somewhere I have pictures of 86s being dragged around Bolton. and dragged between crewe - shrewsbury - wolverhampton too pretty regularly, so an 86 on an un-electrified line with GWR lower quadrant signals is prototypical! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
87023Velocity Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Wasn't it the last six or so that had a differing roof layout? 101 had the round 'pods' on the cab roof too of course. Kev. I don't recall any major roof differences between 87/0s, but 101 had a vastly different oil header tank. I seem to remember a small number received Vacuum Circuit Breakers (VCB) instead of Air Blast Breakers (ABB), these are mounted on the roof and different in shape etc IIRC - but my memory could be playing tricks on me! Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevpeo Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 I seem to remember a small number received Vacuum Circuit Breakers (VCB) instead of Air Blast Breakers (ABB), these are mounted on the roof and different in shape etc IIRC - but my memory could be playing tricks on me! Cheers Simon That must be what I was remembering! Cheers Simon. Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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