New Crowdfunded Class 86 or Class 87

[joejab95]

This is fantastic news! I've voted for both, but as others have mentioned an 86 may be better to focus on.

 

I think there is a wider scope for 86s and there is an outside chance that Bachmann may look into the 87 after they release their class 90.

 

I also agree with someone who mentioned previously, a motorised pantograph adds unnecessary costs to a model and it's something the majority probably won't even use. I will certainly watch this thread closely!

[stovepipe]

I've voted for both,

 

A few people have said this, but how can one vote for both, without two usernames?

 

An operable panto would for most users, I think, be a luxury unless modelling a depot or large station. I would think it'd be difficult to replicate the non-linear movement of the real thing too.

 

I voted cl 86, 1966-1976 please .

[steve fay]

One of each to be honest! I voted for the 87

A RES 86 and an intercity 87 would be good

[Dreadnought05]

A few people have said this, but how can one vote for both, without two usernames?

 

An operable panto would for most users, I think, be a luxury unless modelling a depot or large station. I would think it'd be difficult to replicate the non-linear movement of the real thing too.

 

I voted cl 86, 1966-1976 please .

The poll is like a check list. You can choose both options.

[ThaneofFife]

its been pointed out to me too that Bachmann may choose an 87 to follow their 90 BUT...............their 90 is still AFAIA in the drawing office so lets say thats 1 year away still there is likely to be another 3 years at least before they do the 87.  and that assumes they announce it pretty much straight after release of the 90 which I doubt would happen so lets add another year as a minimum - that means a new 87 could take at least 5 years to arrive whereas if Dave hit the button now an 87 could be here in what.....2 years maybe 3 tops.

 

Wait for Bachmann and it could be 2021/22 before the Van arrives.

[Simon Moore]

Both !!!

 

Because an accurate model of either is missing from the 4mm ranges & you can't have one without the other as they went hand in hand on the wcml

[JSpencer]

Though I am not too fussed about having either a new 86 or 87, the idea of a working pantograph is interesting and could make me chip in.

 

I will echo others thoughts of there being a big Bachmann risk of them following on with an 87 after a 90.

 

I will also echo that a class 89 would be brilliant idea (with or without working panto).

[Jack374]

Hi Dave,

 

I personally voted for an 86 as they are far more numerous today and are still going strong. As a (very nearly) millennium child, I don't remember a time when 87s were commonplace in either the BR or Virgin eras, but the 86s are still regular workhorses today, operated by Freightliner mainly, but by other operators too such as Caledonian Sleeper, and they have carried many varied liveries over the decades. Whilst we all have different memories of common workings dependant on childhood era etc., I remember vividly seeing pairs of 'cans' roaring through Preston on evening 'liner trains, trains that can still be seen today, and thus I would love to see an accurate representation of these locos. Because I've never really witnessed 87s in action, if the modelling community decide to wish for it, I wouldn't be purchasing any because I can't justify one, no matter how wonderful a model it is. An 86 on the other hand, I would almost certainly buy.

 

In terms of details, I feel a working raising/lowering pantograph is a stretch too far. For a start not many people have adequate catenary on their layout, and height inconsistencies are inevitable, meaning the 'pan would have to be sprung to some extent too: a rather tricky thing to get right for a reasonable price increase. I'd quite like to see instead, a sprung unit that looks accurate and works seamlessly, with a good amount of springing and the ability to lock it down with minimal visual intrusion...magnets perhaps? I think this is a far better proposition than a fully automated unit...I daren't dare imagine the final cost of such an elaborate system that works perfectly!

 

That's my tuppence worth, and these are the views of an average 16 year old with a limited budget...will it be ready in time for Christmas?

 

Many thanks and I wish you well in this venture Dave,

Jack.

[YesTor]

Haven't voted on this one as much rather see mainstream release from the big boys , ideally Hornby or Oxford.

 

Unless I'm missing something, I fail to see the logic here - its sounds as though you are most definitely not in favour of DJM producing either the 86 or 87, instead you would rather see either Oxford or Hornby produce such models?  Why may I ask, as...

 

1. Oxford have no proven track record of producing highly detailed locomotives, so how good any initial attempts may or may not be is highly debatable at this moment in time.

    

2. Hornby have for years stuck to knocking-out woefully dated ex-Lima 87s and their own 86 (which must be all of thirty-five years old) - and with no apparent intention of producing a decent AC electric of any kind, be it 86, 87, 89, 90, 92, or otherwise.

 

It seems you cannot win with some people... have we not been crying year-upon-year for decent models of the 86 & 87, and now finally we have the chance of a manufacturer, who clearly has an eye for producing high-spec models, of doing so and it seems there are some who still aren't seemingly satisfied.  And not to mention, we, as modellers, are even being given the chance to vote on which prototype is produced.  Come on guys, what does a man seriously have to do?!

[YesTor]

A few people have said this, but how can one vote for both, without two usernames?

 

Tick both boxes. Simples 

[NickL2008]

Voted the 87, preferably in any Intercity livery variant, or in Virgin

 

NL

[Wolf27]

I think a loco raising and lowering the pan would be far from prototypical. Locos do not lower their pan running through neutral sections, and only lower their pans when stabled for long periods. Typically a loco may not lower its pan at all during the working day. The only trains that you could reasonably get away with realistically lowering/raising pans are those which are dual voltage and changing supply, or those with two pans that swap over according to direction - eg some of the early electric locos, Pendolinos etc, and even then only prototypical if you are working in to a terminus. i suppose it would be of benefit to those modelling an Electric TMD, but how many are doing that?

 

I fear we will get a lot of layouts unrealistically lowering pans just because they can rather than because it is prototypical.

I stand corrected on the pan lowering through neutral sections, having asked the question and got the answer from one who is very knowledgeable on such matters. Even so the option on a operating pan would be a nice to have, dependant on cost of course. The most important thing is to get the shape right, Heljan got theirs wrong even at the cad stage when there was still a chance to correct it, but they took no notice despite several attempts to make them aware.

 

cheers

 

Shane

[Taigatrommel]

Although I have no particular interest in either an 86 or 87, one comment by Dave stood out to me.  The idea of plastic pans for greater visual fidelity.  Making a pantograph from metal does not preclude high visual quality- just look at what Roco, LS Models and ACME produce.  Furthermore, I have built and operate a layout with overhead which the pans run along, and accidents do occur between pan and wire, and a metal pan is simply easier to repair if it gets snagged and pulls something out of place compared to plastic pans, which can simply snap.

 

As far as raising and lowering pans goes, a linear microservo would strike me as the obvious basis for such a mechanism.  Were it me, I would make such a feature an optional extra at additional cost, as sound is for most models.  Some modellers simply won't need or want such a feature which will inevitably add to the cost of a model.  I also see pan pickup as unnecessary, though most models I own have it as an optional feature which is simply a switch or slider on the circuit board, presumably adding a little cost but far less in comparison to a mechanically operating pan.

[Legend]

Unless I'm missing something, I fail to see the logic here - its sounds as though you are most definitely not in favour of DJM producing either the 86 or 87, instead you would rather see either Oxford or Hornby produce such models?  Why may I ask, as...

 

 

• Oxford have no proven track record of producing highly detailed locomotives, so how good any initial attempts may or may not be is highly debatable at this moment in time.

   

• Hornby have for years stuck to knocking-out woefully dated ex-Lima 87s and their own 86 (which must be all of thirty-five years old) - and with no apparent intention of producing a decent AC electric of any kind, be it 86, 87, 89, 90, 92, or otherwise.

 

It seems you cannot win with some people... have we not been crying year-upon-year for decent models of the 86 & 87, and now finally we have the chance of a manufacturer, who clearly has an eye for producing high-spec models, of doing so and it seems there are some who still aren't seemingly satisfied.  And not to mention, we, as modellers, are even being given the chance to vote on which prototype is produced.  Come on guys, what does a man seriously have to do?!

Cost and availability. A crowd funded one will be limited to those who order one and is likely to be more expensive, especially if they go down the route of working pantographs. a mainstream supplier, perhaps with the exception of Bachmann, is likely to be less expensive. I also like to see what I'm buying first rather than commit ahead of seeing what I'm actually going to get, so not a great admirer of crowd funding , regardless of whether it's an 86 , 87 or anything else mainstream. Besides which I thinks it's entirely possible you could see a revamped 86 or 87 from Hornby or Oxford.

[MGR Hooper!]

Unless I'm missing something, I fail to see the logic here - its sounds as though you are most definitely not in favour of DJM producing either the 86 or 87, instead you would rather see either Oxford or Hornby produce such models?  Why may I ask, as...

 

1. Oxford have no proven track record of producing highly detailed locomotives, so how good any initial attempts may or may not be is highly debatable at this moment in time.

    

2. Hornby have for years stuck to knocking-out woefully dated ex-Lima 87s and their own 86 (which must be all of thirty-five years old) - and with no apparent intention of producing a decent AC electric of any kind, be it 86, 87, 89, 90, 92, or otherwise.

 

It seems you cannot win with some people... have we not been crying year-upon-year for decent models of the 86 & 87, and now finally we have the chance of a manufacturer, who clearly has an eye for producing high-spec models, of doing so and it seems there are some who still aren't seemingly satisfied.  And not to mention, we, as modellers, are even being given the chance to vote on which prototype is produced.  Come on guys, what does a man seriously have to do?!

Well...please don't mind me replying, but I think you've misunderstood it.

 

1) OR came into the picture because they publicly said and have told many via email that they intend to produce matching stock i.e. coaches with suitable locos to haul it and vice versa. They may not have any proven track record. OR make lovely wagons, I admit they've released an Adams Radial that does have it's flaws. Their GWR Dean Goods also has it's flaws and oddly enough no one on RMweb spotted the issue during it's first EP stage and only now see it on livery samples. The sample of the Janus looks brilliant.

 

2) There's nothing to also prove that Hornby cannot make a model of any AC electric. They may not be working on a Class 86 or Class 87 but they can do others.

 

3) Whose to say DJM cannot make mistakes? The first EP of the Class 71 had errors, luckily Dave probably knew it or was informed thankfully. I'm still scrutinizing pics of the latest Class 71 EPs just incase though I don't intend on buying the DJM one. Even the Hattons 14xx/15xx if I've got their classification right? The recess for numberplates is a little too big. the BR black versions seem to have lining that's a tad thick. Lucky people brought those up right?

 

NOTE ON Bachmann: I constantly see members speculate that Bachmann will do a Class 87 after their Class 90 (which will probably never leave it's drawing room). How much in terms of modelling will the Class 87 share with the Class 90?

- Wheelbase

- Wheels

- Motor

- Circuit board and electricals

- Possibly some roof equipment and the pantograph

Can the body be used? No

Can the chassis be used? No Class 90's have different underframe gubbins and Class 90's also sport a valance that has to be part of the chassis block.

So Bachmann doing the Class 87 straight after their Class 90 isn't really a possibility in terms of reusing parts. It basically going to be new tooling. If I'm not mistaken the Class 87 will require corridors with lighting also whereas the Class 90 won't. ThaneOfFaife was spot on.... I'm pretty sure Bachmann's Class 90 will hit shelves probably in 2018. They obviously won't announce a Class 87 after that. Possibly a year later? Maybe 2019 and we'll see one in 2021/2022

 

PS: I'd be happy if anyone does a Class 86 and Class 87 (as long as I get the livery I want). I also don't mind the whole duplication thing....But the British market isn't the same as the American or European ones where duplication won't affect brands much. In Britain we will see the affects and I'd not want to see any manufacturer make losses of any sort....afterall they basically give us our hobby in the form of RTR products.

[wombatofludham]

Reality Dose Alert.

 

1)  Dave Jones is running a poll  ​to ascertain demand for a high detail Class 86 or 87.  Nothing more.

 

2)  Dave is running a business, so we can safely assume he is quite capable of assessing the risks of "duplication" or competition.  Last time I checked we were a capitalist mixed economy in which competition is deemed good and participants in businesses are deemed to subscribe to that maxim.

 

3) No-one - outside the companies concerned - has any idea whatsoever whether any company is secretly working on any AC electric apart from the Bachmann Class 90.

 

4) So, in the real world, we have:  A poll on a potential new model fro DJM:  Hornby is producing two 40 year old models:  Heljan are no longer producing their 86:  Oxford have not indicated in their recent range announcement any new AC electric model:  Hornby have announced a scaling back on their range and cancelled one release of their 87:  Bachmann have announced a Class 90, have announced additional resources to speed up work on their backlog, but no other commitments.

 

Everything else is rumour and speculation.  I'm sure Dave is much more aware of the vagaries of the UK model market and potential pitfalls and competition risks in moving into AC electric models than any of us, so I'm happy to let him decide how risky the venture is, let's face it it's the nearest we've got to an actual commitment to a contemporary Class 86 or 87 at the moment.

[Great Western]

Would you consider adding a Class 92 to the poll ?

[frobisher]

NOTE ON Bachmann: I constantly see members speculate that Bachmann will do a Class 87 after their Class 90 (which will probably never leave it's drawing room). How much in terms of modelling will the Class 87 share with the Class 90?

- Wheelbase

- Wheels

- Motor

- Circuit board and electricals

- Possibly some roof equipment and the pantograph

Can the body be used? No

Can the chassis be used? No Class 90's have different underframe gubbins and Class 90's also sport a valance that has to be part of the chassis block.

So Bachmann doing the Class 87 straight after their Class 90 isn't really a possibility in terms of reusing parts. It basically going to be new tooling. If I'm not mistaken the Class 87 will require corridors with lighting also whereas the Class 90 won't. ThaneOfFaife was spot on.... I'm pretty sure Bachmann's Class 90 will hit shelves probably in 2018. They obviously won't announce a Class 87 after that. Possibly a year later? Maybe 2019 and we'll see one in 2021/2022

That's not exactly how it works these days.

 

IF Bachmann followed up the 90 with an 87, it wouldn't actually share any tooling or components directly, but would itself have a fresh set of tools made for the common bits so that one set of tools being in use wouldn't preclude the use of another.

 

That all said, I think Dave should do both, but definitely get an 86/0 or 3 in the mix as beyond the Lima N gauge model, this hasn't been offered RTR.

 

However, the commonality of the prototypes would allow a more rapid production of an 87 from a 90 by using the latter's CAD as a starting point for the former. A lot of the technical issues (drive train, electronics) are already resolved from the 90, so you just reapply those (without the troublesome coupling/valance to worry about). To a lesser degree (though slightly more old school) the Farish 87 was produced from their 90 this way.

[The Ghost of IKB]

I want both but I voted for an 86.  if only one can go forward it has to be the 86.  an operating pantograph would be excellent but probably cost sensitive.  if you can make an 86 with detail and sound as good as the sLW 24, ready for EM,  I for one will buy plenty of them!

[stewartingram]

Why do people turn a poll about a specific item (or two in this case) into a general wish list?

 

Stewart

[Wolf27]

Why do people turn a poll about a specific item (or two in this case) into a general wish list?

 

Stewart

You sound surprised. How long before it goes off topic?

 

Cheers

 

Shane

[Fenman]

You sound surprised. How long before it goes off topic?

 

Cheers

 

Shane

I'd say your post was well off-topic, so you win the prize!

 

 

Paul

[Ian Hargrave]

I'd say your post was well off-topic, so you win the prize!

Paul

And it's a rare event that we agree.

[adb968008]

On the subject of risk. I think it's more shared/collective ... the risk us on us.

 

We are being asked if we want one. If we vote yes, then vote with our wallets.. Then we're getting one.

If someone else rocks up and says me too.. The risk is more on them, as we as buyers haven't just said yes..but paid in advance for the one we have and they need to convince a subset of its buyers to buy a "me too" version also.

 

Looking at the 71, it's happened, and those of us who subscribed are getting it, regardless Hornby doing one too.

If H thinks it can sell to the wider market good luck to them, the D version will be the one held collectively special. There's nothing stopping D making more in the future, and if reputation holds sway, it could attract a premium too...that's the manufacturers risk in this.

 

Returning to the 86, as it stands, it's a popular class, wildly varied and an open field... If this was a 25 yr old strawberry blonde sitting in the club all alone, would you leave her standing alone ?, if a 2nd walked in later would you not fancy your chances twice ? But right now the risk is she doesn't come at all and were left with the older model from decades ago.

[YesTor]

Cost and availability. A crowd funded one will be limited to those who order one...

 

Agreed, but sometimes we simply have to dip our hands into our pockets and show a little faith... 

 

 

...and is likely to be more expensive...  a mainstream supplier, perhaps with the exception of Bachmann, is likely to be less expensive.

 

I'm not sure if you have noticed the price of Hornby locomotives these days? 

 

Hornby Class 71 now on sale:  £127.50

DJM Class 71 pre-order price:  £125.00

 

Some other Hornby diesels such as the Class 31 and Class 60 are currently in excess of £150.00.

 

 

...besides which I thinks it's entirely possible you could see a revamped 86 or 87 from Hornby or Oxford.

 

With regard to Hornby, haven't we been predicting a revamped 86 & 87 for the past decade...  and still nothing in sight...  However, for arguments sake let's assume that you are correct and that's still no reason as to why DJM or anyone else should not beat Hornby/Oxford to market.  As the saying goes, "To bake a cake one has to break a few eggs".  I'm afraid if no one were prepared to take a chance from time-to-time then no one would ever do anything...

 

And of course, while nothing is guaranteed with any manufacturer with regard to producing an accurate model, personally I'd rather bet my funds on a DJM example than perhaps Oxford (no disrespect but we have no evidence of any fantastically produced diesel model, as yet); or Hornby (who have released their fair share of 'howlers' more recently, not to mention quality control issues etc). 

 

Also worthy of adding is that Hornby have been knocking-out their Class 86 since my junior schooldays; I am now into the latter half of my working life, and to be honest I'd quite like to see a decent 86 & 87 produced before I hit my retirement years, and I'm not holding my breath for the 'red box brigade' on that one!