New Crowdfunded Class 86 or Class 87

[298]

 

The minefield of AC electrics is one that no manufacturer has emerged from totally unscathed yet...going back a couple of pages I'd forget them and build a nice Fell instead!

...which to me is the epitome of the state of expectations and the provision thereof in 2016. I'm talking about classes that have seen six decades of use carrying numerous liveries and can still be seen on the mainline both here and abroad, having clocked up nearly a billion miles... and someone still thinks the Fell diesel is a better idea...

[surfsup]

Nice and shiny roarer for me! Could you include the 87 in Caledonian Sleeper livery as well please Dave? 

[reevesthecat]

What is the approximate cost of the model from the quote and specification already received? I would rather have an idea rather than pluck a number from out of the air of what I may be able to afford.

Thanks

Mark

[Dagworth]

As others have said, no need for etched grilles, on an 86 or 87 they would offer no benefit at all. Just because something is etched does not always make it better and often makes it worse. I would prefer a good moulding over an etch. 

Sprung buffers are also an unnecessary addition, just get the shape right.

Lights are a good feature but really don't need every single one individually controlled. As long as the tail lights can be turned off from the decoder in DCC use and only have one tail light at a time instead of both.

 

As for pantographs then metal every time. plastic is too fragile. Sprung and working is hugely important to me, but please don't make the springs too strong like certain other manufacturers have done. Current collection via the pan is not important. I don't care whether it is able to be raised and lowered with DCC but please leave a space under the pan that can accommodate a mechanism if the owner desired, the same space could be suitable for a loudspeaker. 

 

Close coupling mechanisms simply do not behave properly with tension-lock couplers, with a heavy train they will not self-centre correctly. Don't bother.

 

4 axle drive and no traction tyres!

[Removed a/c]

If you are running an AC electric with the pan up you will see movement, without which it would look odd, especially with the wire height changes at overbridges and level crossings. In real life the pan moves up and down significant amounts to accommodate these features, moving several feet up and down from its normal position. You can definitely see it on the real thing, and if you can't replicate it on the model significant realism is lost, so the argument that there is nothing to see working holds no water.

You must have the eyes of a hawk then so I will agree to disagree. 

[Tricky-CRS]

Brexit has hit all manufacturers to be honest, and only those with projects paid for already won't, in theory be hit so badly.

However that's only if the tooling has been paid for. If the units haven't been paid for they will now be a fair bit more expensive.

 

For instance, 12 months or so ago ago I was working on 13 hk$ to the pound. Then it dropped to 11.3 and now it's at 10.17 to the uk£

 

Even that 1 dollar drop will affect costs based on a £100,000.00 investment.

 

I feel that if the pound doesn't rebound soon (although long term it will rebound eventually) we could, quite possibly see the £200+ locomotive and if this is unpalatable and sales don't make the project sustainable, companies could suffer accordingly.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

I agree with you in part on this one, but my gut is that these exchange rates won't least to long. The money men only make money by buying and selling based on rumor and bad feeling. The Brexit bad feeling effect wont last to long 2-4 more month as they will need to start moving money to make money. In a few weeks or months another rumor or bad sentiment about another currency will emerge and the pound will recover. I reality it may 21/2 years before we exit the dollar or Euro or Yen or what every will take a hammering at least once in that time span.

 

With out making assumptions on our finances if you could hold of for 3-4 months you might see (I suspect you will) a recovery in exchange rates. In the longer term 2-3 years the release schedules of companies will probably slow as profit margins tighten. It may well be that other markets become more lucrative as well and this is where our unique scales will hurt us, as classes of locos move around the world UK model manufactures can not sell them overseas markets in their local branding, Eg Class 58.

[Titan]

You must have the eyes of a hawk then so I will agree to disagree. 

 

Are you honestly trying to tell me it needs eyes of a hawk to tell the difference between this:

 

 

and this?

 

 

Pantographs move, and it is very noticable.

[Removed a/c]

But that is real life we are taking about a 1:76 model and a steam engine with no connecting rods or valve gear. 

[newbryford]

Would be nice to match the standard our ex Euro friends have

 

Quite possibly so, but a quick search shows the price as about 410 Euros..... so about £340 at today's exchange rates.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Titan]

But that is real life we are taking about a 1:76 model and a steam engine with no connecting rods or valve gear. 

 

And are we not supposed to be emulating real life in model form?

 

I did not say no connecting rods or valve gear, I said connecting rods or valve gear that was present but did not move being analogous to a pantograph that was present but did not move.

 

Edited cause of fat fingers...

[Roy Langridge]

But that is real life we are taking about a 1:76 model and a steam engine with no connecting rods or valve gear. 

 

You have lost me with that one. A steam model without working motion would be laughed out of town by serious steam modellers. For serious modellers of overhead electrics, a pantograph that can follow the overhead wires, with realistic changes in height for infrastructure is also required. Where is the issue?

 

As for the vote, I voted for a class 86 and if I were DJM, that is what I would look to do: they were more numerous, carried more liveries and have more detail differences to include in releases over the years.

 

As has been noted, one vote does not mean one model sale. For me, make some rail blue 86s available and I will buy 3 or 4. Personally not interested in much else livery wise, perhaps one large logo may just be ok.

 

Roy

[Removed a/c]

And are we not supposed to be emulating real life in model form?

 

I did not say no connecting rods or valve gear, I said connecting rods or valve gear that was present but did not move being analogous to a pantograph that was present but did not move.

 

Edited cause of fat fingers...

My mistake I left out the word moving.

 

We are indeed but there are also has to be compromises, my point is no moving gear would be a far worse compromise that a working panto but I guess it depends on your modelling preference. I have seen many layouts that leave the wires off ( easier to maintain the layout, cost etc....) so the moving panto is of little use to them 

[Titan]

No, because the rods and pistons are part of the drive train and have to go round with the wheels or the wheels don't go round. 

 

On an electric loco if the pan does not go up and down the wheels won't go round either...

[Removed a/c]

You have lost me with that one. A steam model without working motion would be laughed out of town by serious steam modellers. For serious modellers of overhead electrics, a pantograph that can follow the overhead wires, with realistic changes in height for infrastructure is also required. Where is the issue?

 

As for the vote, I voted for a class 86 and if I were DJM, that is what I would look to do: they were more numerous, carried more liveries and have more detail differences to include in releases over the years.

 

As has been noted, one vote does not mean one model sale. For me, make some rail blue 86s available and I will buy 3 or 4. Personally not interested in much else livery wise, perhaps one large logo may just be ok.

 

Roy

It goes back to conversation between Titan and myself ,  I don't think it has anything to do with being a serious modeler. I believe even a non-railway modeler would suss something was up with a steam loco with non moving rods etc.........whether they would notice a pan that moves with the wires height difference ???

 

I leave it at that as we all have different views on what we need and model. 

[Removed a/c]

On an electric loco if the pan does not go up and down the wheels won't go round either...

Are you on the right forum?      

 

 

I have a 87 and I don't even have any catenary and it moves perfectly fine. 

[Titan]

My mistake I left out the word moving.

 

We are indeed but there are also has to be compromises, my point is no moving gear would be a far worse compromise that a working panto but I guess it depends on your modelling preference. I have seen many layouts that leave the wires off ( easier to maintain the layout, cost etc....) so the moving panto is of little use to them 

 

True, and the wiring is hard to do so I can understand why people may take that option. But has been demonstrated several times a good looking working pan is possible without a high price ticket - Bachmann Class 85, and more recently Hornby and DJMs class 71 - which ironically the argument for a static pan is much stronger since they were so rarely used anyway!

[Titan]

Are you on the right forum?    

 

 

I have a 87 and I don't even have any catenary and it moves perfectly fine. 

 

 

Not on a real one it doesn't!! 

[James Makin]

I'd think £150-ish would be a decent price point to aim for if it were me!

 

Like Andi and Gordon said above, the pantograph's got to be metal just for some rigidity during running - has anyone wanting plastic ever tried running with actual contact under overhead wires? You do occasionally get snags and unless there's a quick-release feature then that's a broken arm there!!

 

Finally my dirtiest contribution haha, outside of this bubble that is RMWeb, what would be the USP of a new '86' to make it any better than Heljan's model? I'd tentatively suggest I'm 'into' overhead electrics and to me the Heljan '86' isn't that bad (hearty laughter at the back) - for even more casual enthusiasts, is there a tempting reason to make them change from their Heljan's?

[Fairburn]

Are you honestly trying to tell me it needs eyes of a hawk to tell the difference between this:

 

 

and this?

 

 

Pantographs move, and it is very noticable.

It's quite noticeable that both pans appear to be in contact with the wire, though. I should know this as my dad was on the overhead lines team out of Springs Branch and they looked after Mk. 1 on the Liverpool lines from Weaver and the early '70's installation from Weaver to Carnforth - but do the heights between systems vary as dramatically as depicted or is it set low at Carlisle due the bridges north of the station in the first shot?

 

 

Ian

[Dagworth]

It's quite noticeable that both pans appear to be in contact with the wire, though. I should know this as my dad was on the overhead lines team out of Springs Branch and they looked after Mk. 1 on the Liverpool lines from Weaver and the early '70's installation from Weaver to Carnforth - but do the heights between systems vary as dramatically as depicted or is it set low at Carlisle due the bridges north of the station in the first shot?

 

 

Ian

Wire height can vary from 14 ft minimum where the wire passes under bridges and tunnels up to a maximum above rail height of 19'6" at level crossings. Normal height is 16ft

 

Andi

[Fairburn]

Wire height can vary from 14 ft minimum where the wire passes under bridges and tunnels up to a maximum above rail height of 19'6" at level crossings. Normal height is 16ft

 

Andi

Thanks.

[wombatofludham]

Finally my dirtiest contribution haha, outside of this bubble that is RMWeb, what would be the USP of a new '86' to make it any better than Heljan's model? I'd tentatively suggest I'm 'into' overhead electrics and to me the Heljan '86' isn't that bad (hearty laughter at the back) - for even more casual enthusiasts, is there a tempting reason to make them change from their Heljan's?

 

Everyone keeps going on about the Heljan 86 but overlooks a number of things.  It's no longer in production, and unlikely to be made again on past performance.  It was only available in post 1997 refurbished condition and only produced in Intercity, Frightliner, Virgin and Anglia liveries.  No "Banger Blue", No Executive, and no early Rail Blue with small yellow ends, which let's not forget, ran alongside steam and green diesels in the allegedly popular "transition" era.  Dave has said that if he goes into production with an 86, it'll have the necessary moulding variations to enable every variant to be modelled, not just the post 1997 refurbished version.

 

​I must admit the idea of a quality modern Class 86 that accurately models the variety in the class over the years is long overdue.  They've been around for 50 years and are a tribute to British railway engineering, they've been an integral part of my railway enthusiast life since I was at infant school, my first rail journey was behind one and that's why I hope if Dave produces every variant he releases them in bits and drabs as I would expect I will probably want multiple versions of every variant, which if it reaches the £200 will become slightly expensive!

[adb968008]

I agree with you in part on this one, but my gut is that these exchange rates won't least to long. The money men only make money by buying and selling based on rumor and bad feeling. The Brexit bad feeling effect wont last to long 2-4 more month as they will need to start moving money to make money. In a few weeks or months another rumor or bad sentiment about another currency will emerge and the pound will recover. I reality it may 21/2 years before we exit the dollar or Euro or Yen or what every will take a hammering at least once in that time span.

 

With out making assumptions on our finances if you could hold of for 3-4 months you might see (I suspect you will) a recovery in exchange rates. In the longer term 2-3 years the release schedules of companies will probably slow as profit margins tighten. It may well be that other markets become more lucrative as well and this is where our unique scales will hurt us, as classes of locos move around the world UK model manufactures can not sell them overseas markets in their local branding, Eg Class 58.

 

 

I wish I shared your optimism, but history isn't on your side, the pound has been on a gradual decline since the 1950s, it reinvents itself about 3-4 years post each recession where it spikes up, but doesn't hold the previous highs, before another crash / recession follows and history repeats itself in the downward trend.

 

http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?A=1&C1=GBP&C2=USD&DD1=&MM1=&YYYY1=&B=1&P=&I=1&DD2=22&MM2=07&YYYY2=2016&btnOK=Go%21

 

 

7 years ago we cheered the $2.12 to the £, but imagine that $4.03 = £1 was the high once,  the recessions of the 70s,80s,mid-90s, dotcom bubble, 2009 crash and the Brexit of 2016 have alway iteratively declined the £ on the global scale. since 2009 $1.60s was considered the "new high". Whilst it sounds a sorry story its a stage managed decline, as industry moves eastwards away from the UK, and the government uses inflation as a counter to currency devaluation to reduce the repayment value of it's debts. It then uses the new found credit to invest for a few years creating the spike, before the next crash... its a cycle that repeats approx every 7 years...1978, 1985 ($1.05 = £1 was the lowest ever) ,1991,2001,2009, 2016, 2023..). The UK isn't the only country doing this, whilst reducing the populations lifestyle it does boost the economy with a competitive edge...good if your a producer at home..(Look at asset prices : property, metals even model railways.. they don't go down in the long term due to inflation).

 

Recover it may, but unless Trump gets in, I don't think the £ is likely to see $1.50 again for a couple of years... Like it or not the US controls the global money supply by sheer weight of it's supply, and its where they invest that moves markets, and they only invest to make a profit.. is the UK a more profitable, less risky environment than elsewhere in the world right now..i wouldnt say now, but in a few years maybe...

 

In short, when it comes to model railways we cannot control, influence or even express concern over exchange rates, so unfortunately you have to work with what you have, not what you want.

 

When it comes to planning a model that may take 2 years before you see it, and plan for a few more years ahead of it for sales...well i'd be more cautious than adventurous, but thats myself.

Of course fortune favours the brave and if people are willing to pay todays new reality rate..

Its better to advertise a higher rate and come in lower, than advertise a lower rate and come in higher.

if  the currency does bounce back.. happy days.. but I revert to my 1st line.

[MGR Hooper!]

Bachmann Class 85, and more recently Hornby and Dapols class 71

I wish Dapol did a Class 71... 

[Titan]

I wish Dapol did a Class 71... 

 

Oops. Duly corrected!