New Crowdfunded Class 86 or Class 87

['CHARD]

The Fell, now your talking my language. Would be interested in that!

FREAK

So would I. There was a nice and steady little stream appearing of weirdos one-off prototypes until Heljan discovered 0 scale.

 

A curious thing about the Fell: all the driving wheels were initially coupled until it was discovered that the centre pair of rods were in conflict with the internal transmission, whereupon they were removed.

 

I feel there’s a lesson there for a certain producer of Adams O2s. Given that the coupling rods must be present, getting rid of the internal gearing would seem a sensible step. In conjunction, of course, with eliminating slop in the side rods.

FREAK

[Suzie]

Changing to a 21-MTC socket from a Plu22 socket should not reduce the cost, just the functionality.They both use the same physical connectors.

 

The Plu8 for n-gauge admittedly does not seem to be popular, being usurped by Next18, but Next18 is not a replacement for Plu22 or MTC-21.

 

Roco has adopted PluX so there is unlikely to be a problem getting basic decoders which are already available in the UK for as little as £17.50 (Zimo MX600P12), full 10-function lighting and servo decoder £39 (Zimo MX633p22) or full 10-function decoder with sound £81 (Zimo MX645P22). Other more expensive makes of decoder are available too such as Lenz, Uhlenbrock and ESU.

 

It is not like you would be considering putting a mickey mouse £10 decoder in a loco of this quality anyway!

[John ks]

Dave

 

Opening doors for me are just a gimic

 

Working metal pantographs are important(with DCC, pickup through the pantograph is not important)

 

I prefer to body mount kadee couplings so for me a close coupling mechanism would get in the way (I suspect I am in the minority with this one)

 

I hope the chassis will be all wheel drive and wheel pickup with no traction tyres.

 

Just a thought, could the lighting switches be mounted on the DCC dummy plug as a row of dip switches.

This would require the decoder position to be behind a easily removable panel possibly held in place with a magnet

I would suspect that this would be a cheaper and easier way to provide switching for all the lights

 

I think I could live with a price of £150.00 although at a similar price to the class71 would be more appealing

 

Would we be expected to pay full price up front or a deposit now & the balance at the time of dispatch

 

John

[No Decorum]

Would we be expected to pay full price up front or a deposit now & the balance at the time of dispatch

I think full price up front is inherent in crowd funding. The way it was done with the 71 was to offer a full refund at any time up to delivery if you changed your mind.

 

Dave depends on profits from what has already been sold to fund new models (and to keep a roof over his head), so crowd funding is one way of getting a model started.

[Legend]

Ok I've reluctantly joined in here because I would prefer a mainstream release rather than crowd funded.i went for an 87 .original blue 87 circa 1974, please. The Electric Scots are coming .it was my era

[No Decorum]

FREAK

FREAK

It’s a while since someone has said something so nice about me. I once told a friend that my father had said to me, “You’re just odd!” The friend thought it was high praise!

 

I’m not all that freaky, really. I’d only want one motor in my Fell. Three of the rest could go into gas turbine electrics, one into a Class 80 and the last into 10800. The Bulleid diesels are in hand. Aren’t they?

[adb968008]

I'm going to throw in and recognise that prices have risen,and Brexit has added to that and say £200.

 

However a nice sweetener would be a multiple purchase discount.

 

I'm guessing it's volume not price that will see this through.

 

I miss the days of 17HKD to £1, especially when local prices there used to be somewhat cheaper than now to boot.

[DJM Dave]

I'm going to throw in and recognise that prices have risen,and Brexit has added to that and say £200.

However a nice sweetener would be a multiple purchase discount.

Brexit has hit all manufacturers to be honest, and only those with projects paid for already won't, in theory be hit so badly.

However that's only if the tooling has been paid for. If the units haven't been paid for they will now be a fair bit more expensive.

 

For instance, 12 months or so ago ago I was working on 13 hk$ to the pound. Then it dropped to 11.3 and now it's at 10.17 to the uk£

 

Even that 1 dollar drop will affect costs based on a £100,000.00 investment.

 

I feel that if the pound doesn't rebound soon (although long term it will rebound eventually) we could, quite possibly see the £200+ locomotive and if this is unpalatable and sales don't make the project sustainable, companies could suffer accordingly.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Wolf27]

Just to clarify an earlier query, a poseable pan would suffice. Those that require a fully functioning, current collecting pan can jolly well do some modelling!

 

Cheers

 

Shane

[fozzy280472]

I think for me around £150 is roughly right , otherwise I think if the model goes much higher then quite a few potential sales could be lost , see the multiple threads on people upset at price rises etc.

As long as the model is dimensionally correct , is painted in the correct colour runs well and has good fine detailing I think it's not really necessary for sprung buffers opening doors or operating pantographs. This could hopefully keep some costs down .

In my view the metal pantograph MUST look right and be to scale as this single item can make or break the look of a model AC electric , see the Bachmann 85 versus the Heljan 86.

I'm just hoping this project goes ahead.

Cheers

Paul.

[Matt]

I'm going to throw in and recognise that prices have risen,and Brexit has added to that and say £200.

 

However a nice sweetener would be a multiple purchase discount.

 

I'm guessing it's volume not price that will see this through.

 

I miss the days of 17HKD to £1, especially when local prices there used to be somewhat cheaper than now to boot.

 

I agree re the multiple discount option - would be a good way of trying to stimulate greater volume sales which will help drive down prices for all.  Rail Exclusive did this with some of their models and it certainly worked for me encouraging me to purchase several.

[adb968008]

Brexit has hit all manufacturers to be honest, and only those with projects paid for already won't, in theory be hit so badly.

However that's only if the tooling has been paid for. If the units haven't been paid for they will now be a fair bit more expensive.

For instance, 12 months or so ago ago I was working on 13 hk$ to the pound. Then it dropped to 11.3 and now it's at 10.17 to the uk£

Even that 1 dollar drop will affect costs based on a £100,000.00 investment.

I feel that if the pound doesn't rebound soon (although long term it will rebound eventually) we could, quite possibly see the £200+ locomotive and if this is unpalatable and sales don't make the project sustainable, companies could suffer accordingly.

Cheers

Dave

Agree that's a tricky one. The exchange has some negative milestones ahead (A-day, B-day, R-day etc) which could take another hit on each, but In-between it should be stable barring world events. However they also say in the US if T-day happens, this will cancel all that out and some.

 

So a currency roller coaster lies ahead.

 

the thing we miss was back in 2009 we enjoyed $2.10 for £1.00.

 

Ignoring inflation, that's now £1.60 this morning, before Brexit that was £1.34, so it's easy to see how prices doubled in 7 years.

 

Back to the 86, I personally don't think holding out for a better exchange rate will pay dividends, so it's down to accepting the new price, reducing the spec or increasing the amount of finishing done by the end user.

 

On a side note, one company managed to produce a super detailed English Electric, to join my Bachmann 85, and at £100 (preBrexit, it's £120 now), a few compromises on the motor but otherwise very nice.

 

 

Maybe one option is to not take the currency hedge risk yourself, price the model in US or HK dollars ?, at the end of the day most of us will pay by credit card so we chose what currency exchange rate works for us at the time we buy ?

[Gordon H]

Just to clarify an earlier query, a poseable pan would suffice. Those that require a fully functioning, current collecting pan can jolly well do some modelling!

 

 

A poseable pan is not a pan at all. Might as well not be there.

As the main item to differentiate an OH electric loco from any other is the pantograph, surely that is the item that should have the most attention paid to it in a new design. 

Otherwise why bother modelling electric outline at all?

[James90012]

Spec wise - I would say matching the Bachmann 85 is almost essential. Price wise - up to c.150, although the lower the better because they I could order more!

[Wheatley]

A poseable pan is not a pan at all. Might as well not be there.

As the main item to differentiate an OH electric loco from any other is the pantograph, surely that is the item that should have the most attention paid to it in a new design. 

Otherwise why bother modelling electric outline at all?

 Not sure I understand this logic. The only parts of any model locomotive required to actually function are the drive train and couplings. Absolutely everything else is cosmetic.

[298]

Not sure I understand this logic. The only parts of any model locomotive required to actually function are the drive train and couplings. Absolutely everything else is cosmetic.

One of my first memories of modelled ohle was on a BBC Johnny Ball programme, and the specially constructed layout had a Lima 87 running under some very wavy catenary to show the pan head rising and falling. It's even more noticeable on Deepcar where four pan heads do it in turn. I haven't always agreed that trains should pick up exclusively from overhead, but 4mm and larger scales the pantograph needs to have the right dynamic properties and be able to ride under the wire.

[Wolf27]

One of my first memories of modelled ohle was on a BBC Johnny Ball programme, and the specially constructed layout had a Lima 87 running under some very wavy catenary to show the pan head rising and falling. It's even more noticeable on Deepcar where four pan heads do it in turn. I haven't always agreed that trains should pick up exclusively from overhead, but UN 4mm and larger scales the pantograph needs to have the right dynamic properties and be able to ride under the wire.

I remember that too, the contact wire had not been straightened! Going back to original issue of pans, for me a poseable pan is ok as long as it has fidelity to the prototype. However a sprung pan is ultimately better so it follows the contact wire but if it's a cost issue then what do we do? The Bachmann class 85 pan is the best 4mm pan around but the Lima pans of old are also very good, if not accurate for UK models. How much does a decent pan add to the cost, that is going to be the deciding factor. In 2-3 years time things could be different again regarding the economy, so just do what you feel is best. Those that don't like it have a choice.

 

Cheers

 

Shane

[298]

I have a couple of the "poseable" Dapol N scale pans and although they look the part when static, it'd be a shame to not have them able to ride under the RTP catenary systems that the UK modeller has been waiting so long for. But maybe that is the crux of the problem, anyone modelling a continental prototype could put in a bulk order with Sommerfeldt and not have to worry about being pestered for spares because they could be directed straight back to the sub-contractor.

 

Since the loco will need a pan anyway and I wouldn't expect Dave to open with the coatings, only he can decide whether a metal one (Bachmann 85) is a better option than a poseable one (Hornby 92). But I hope it is something the market ought to be able to bear. Looking through my spares box, the most recent Sommerfeldt 968s are marked at 12.45 euros for a pair- allowing for design work, inflation, exchange rates, and bulk discount, is £10 per model too high...?

[25901]

Would be nice to match the standard our ex Euro friends have

[Bert Cheese]

Having read through this thread it seems it will be a very difficult model to offer in at a price and spec that is satisfactory to everyone.

If any of the various features mentioned are not applied it will be seen as sub-standard by some, but so fitted will obviously be heading toward the £200 mark with servo pans etc.

Where does Dave strike a balance between a perfect model and one at the most attractive price to the largest group of potential buyers? Even the research and drawings must be costing money.

 

The minefield of AC electrics is one that no manufacturer has emerged from totally unscathed yet...going back a couple of pages I'd forget them and build a nice Fell instead!

[Titan]

 Not sure I understand this logic. The only parts of any model locomotive required to actually function are the drive train and couplings. Absolutely everything else is cosmetic.

 

Presumably then if you wanted a steam locomotive then static connecting rods and pistons would be perfectly acceptable, as they are purely cosmetic and not required for the model to function. On an AC electric, a working pan is anologous to working connecting rods on a steam loco, without them any illusion of reality is lost.

[Brian Hawkins]

I would like a class 86 to the standard of Bachmann's class 85 no frills or gimmicks for me please Dave.

[Wheatley]

Titan, on 24 Jul 2016 - 17:11, said:Titan, on 24 Jul 2016 - 17:11, said:Titan, on 24 Jul 2016 - 17:11, said:Titan, on 24 Jul 2016 - 17:11, said:

Presumably then if you wanted a steam locomotive then static connecting rods and pistons would be perfectly acceptable, as they are purely cosmetic and not required for the model to function. On an AC electric, a working pan is anologous to working connecting rods on a steam loco, without them any illusion of reality is lost.

No, because the rods and pistons are part of the drive train and have to go round with the wheels or the wheels don't go round.  Conversely most steam models are in full forward gear all the time because the reversing link and weightshaft are cosmetic on a model and are usually fixed. Those bothered enough can make it moveable if they want to.

 

I would suggest that a/ the number of modellers running AC electrics who have full OLE is a very small minority and b/ those who do are more than capable of making the pan go up and down.  No argument that the pan looks better riding the wire, but on most layouts that won't be an issue.

[Removed a/c]

Presumably then if you wanted a steam locomotive then static connecting rods and pistons would be perfectly acceptable, as they are purely cosmetic and not required for the model to function. On an AC electric, a working pan is anologous to working connecting rods on a steam loco, without them any illusion of reality is lost.

Not sure I agree as with a steam loco you see movement and without it would look odd, there is nothing to see working on an AC electric. (in model form) 

[Titan]

Not sure I agree as with a steam loco you see movement and without it would look odd, there is nothing to see working on an AC electric. (in model form) 

 

 

If you are running an AC electric with the pan up you will see movement, without which it would look odd, especially with the wire height changes at overbridges and level crossings. In real life the pan moves up and down significant amounts to accommodate these features, moving several feet up and down from its normal position. You can definitely see it on the real thing, and if you can't replicate it on the model significant realism is lost, so the argument that there is nothing to see working holds no water.