New Crowdfunded Class 86 or Class 87

[MGR Hooper!]

That's not exactly how it works these days.

 

IF Bachmann followed up the 90 with an 87, it wouldn't actually share any tooling or components directly, but would itself have a fresh set of tools made for the common bits so that one set of tools being in use wouldn't preclude the use of another.

 

That all said, I think Dave should do both, but definitely get an 86/0 or 3 in the mix as beyond the Lima N gauge model, this hasn't been offered RTR.

 

However, the commonality of the prototypes would allow a more rapid production of an 87 from a 90 by using the latter's CAD as a starting point for the former. A lot of the technical issues (drive train, electronics) are already resolved from the 90, so you just reapply those (without the troublesome coupling/valance to worry about). To a lesser degree (though slightly more old school) the Farish 87 was produced from their 90 this way.

Perhaps I should've mentioned.... I was talking hypothetically (in response to everyone's claims)! And yes it's obviously the CAD work for common components that will be used only if necessary.

 

And in response to the part of your post I've highlighted in BOLD. Things are shared directly too if you think about it... Manufacturers share many things directly - motors, wheels, couplings etc. Most of these are supplied normally from a select outside source.

 

 

NOTE ON Bachmann: I constantly see members speculate that Bachmann will do a Class 87 after their Class 90 (which will probably never leave it's drawing room). How much in terms of modelling will the Class 87 share with the Class 90?

- Wheelbase

- Wheels

- Motor

- Circuit board and electricals

- Possibly some roof equipment and the pantograph

Can the body be used? No

Can the chassis be used? No Class 90's have different underframe gubbins and Class 90's also sport a valance that has to be part of the chassis block.

So Bachmann doing the Class 87 straight after their Class 90 isn't really a possibility in terms of reusing parts. It basically going to be new tooling. If I'm not mistaken the Class 87 will require corridors with lighting also whereas the Class 90 won't. ThaneOfFaife was spot on.... I'm pretty sure Bachmann's Class 90 will hit shelves probably in 2018. They obviously won't announce a Class 87 after that. Possibly a year later? Maybe 2019 and we'll see one in 2021/2022

 

As the main point of your post was to point out that there's literally going to be new tooling. I've already stated that. Your post was really similar in nature and content to mine albeit worded differently.

[Opelsi]

I would love a Class 87 and I am sure we will get one in the medium term from somewhere.

 

I do think however that we are more likely to see Dave go for the Class 86 given the balance of the comments here and the vote as it currently stands.

 

Even if the model were to be duplicated (to a similar standard) there are so many livery variations to differentiate that I am sure it will be a winner for Dave anyway.

 

For my ten penneth, I would love a BR Blue with domino headcode (yes there were a couple of them). More than happy with the more likely scenario of having to change the headcodes to dominos from blinds though.

 

Best of Luck Dave - sure this will be a success!

[amwells]

the number of votes don't look too encouraging, but I suspect if you announce that you are proceeding (with either) Dave, the orders will come flooding in!

[MGR Hooper!]

the number of votes don't look too encouraging, but I suspect if you announce that you are proceeding (with either) Dave, the orders will come flooding in!

I'm sure there are many not on RMweb who want one or two...Some may make an account just to vote, others will probably wait for the crowdfunding to begin. I have a friend who is willing to pledge, however he doesn't like using online forums and social media...So If the crowdfunding begins I'll link him to it.

[Pete the Elaner]

I would love both but feel the 87 is an easier target given its fewer detail variations. 86 had a wider field of operation & life.

[Gerald Henriksen]

Reality Dose Alert.

 

1)  Dave Jones is running a poll  ​to ascertain demand for a high detail Class 86 or 87.  Nothing more.

 

 

Those (for whatever reason) hoping for a model from their current favourite alternate manufacturer may want to also consider this.

 

If there are plans for a class 86 / 87, those plans may well be shelved if this poll shows a lack of interest in that model, as those manufacturers then decide that it may be too risky an investment.

[wombatofludham]

the number of votes don't look too encouraging, but I suspect if you announce that you are proceeding (with either) Dave, the orders will come flooding in!

 

I wouldn't read too much into the number of votes, the RMWeb audience has a visible pro-steam bias and I suspect many will want multiple models.  I personally will want a lot, and hope Dave will spread-bet the releases so I can build up a fleet without winning the lottery!

[37081LochLong]

the number of votes don't look too encouraging, but I suspect if you announce that you are proceeding (with either) Dave, the orders will come flooding in!

I have a few friends who want both (and a few of each) but none of them have any intention of joining rmweb to vote.

 

I too want both but just voted for the 87 because that was my favourite and I'll want at least 3 of which ever is made

[MGR Hooper!]

Those (for whatever reason) hoping for a model from their current favourite alternate manufacturer may want to also consider this.

 

If there are plans for a class 86 / 87, those plans may well be shelved if this poll shows a lack of interest in that model, as those manufacturers then decide that it may be too risky an investment.

Why would manufactures take the results from a small poll on RMWeb as gospel and shelve their plans?

[ThaneofFife]

wasnt the RevolutioN Pendolino also a slow burn to begin with? the votes may pick up......

[sub39h]

87 got my vote purely because I have a few Heljan 86s which (pantograph excepting) weren't too offensive imho.

 

I'd only consider the 86 if you were to do 86 401 in NSE as although two of my 86s have been earmarked for resprays getting NSE right would be a pig I imagine.

 

Think the DCC lowering/raising pantograph is far too much of a novelty. It's not something I'd be willing to pay for.

 

Very glad to see AC electrics being considered though.

[Gerald Henriksen]

Why would manufactures take the results from a small poll on RMWeb as gospel and shelve their plans?

 

Not what I said - I said the poll results could influence their thinking.

 

While a poll on a corner of RMweb certainly doesn't represent the entire hobby one can certainly make some guesses based on the results, particularly if they have experience in the industry.  The fact that a proposed AC electric (a deemed risky part of the market to start with) is greeted with a less than enthusiastic response, with people saying I won't buy it from x, or I will only buy it from y, or buy only from z, doesn't create a great deal of confidence that such a model would recoup the significant investment required.

 

Then again, if those other companies are thinking of doing it they may decide to go ahead anyway.

[newbryford]

Why do people turn a poll about a specific item (or two in this case) into a general wish list?

 

Stewart

 

 

You sound surprised. How long before it goes off topic?

 

Cheers

 

Shane

 

 

Oh go on then...................

 

 

Can I have a class 175 please?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Great Western]

I wasn't wish listing, I was asking a question as the 92 like the 86 and 87 are in the same family of West Coast and further afield locos, and lack a modern day high spec model.

 

They also lack the multitude of detail changes between locos, carried many schemes over the years, are the first loco be passed for the UK rail network and into Europe through the tunnel, and have a wide spread operational range, on a par with the 86 and 87.

[MGR Hooper!]

Hi Dave,

 

I've voted for both as I required both. I was initially going to get hold of Hornby models as do a bit of detailing myself. However since you announced your intentions I will wait. However I think a better plan is needed from you.

 

At this very moment I require one Class 86 and one Class 87, both carrying the new Caledonian Sleeper livery. Other than that I don't see the need for others. At a later date maybe an EWS Class 86 or a RfD Class 86 with a blue roof. So I wanted to know, will you be announcing liveries before the crowd-funding begins (if you wish to proceed with it?). I'm a little worried that you may loose potential pledges if the liveries that someone wants isn't included.

 

I might be misunderstanding this whole matter.

Would something like offering a plain unpainted model be a possibility? 

[frobisher]

As the main point of your post was to point out that there's literally going to be new tooling. I've already stated that. Your post was really similar in nature and content to mine albeit worded differently.

Not quite, you have the same understanding as me, but came at it a different way; You were stating that there wasn't really enough bits to reuse, so it would mostly be new tooling in any case, I was saying that the working practices these days is to produce a dedicated set of tooling for each model in the main part almost regardless of the fact that there would be duplication and overlap with other tooling. Hornby certainly do this a whole lot, with people noting that there seems to be differences between the mouldings for what should be common tenders on various steam models.

 

The Farish 87 and 90 are an example that the reuse of existing tooling "thing" used to happen (well there's examples all over the old Poole Farish range of this...).

[Paragon]

Order and sensibility return to the thread, meanwhile however, did someone mention strawberry blondes? Are these included in the purchase or will they be available as aftermarket addons?

(Sorry couldn't resist!!)

To be fairly honest, though, I agree with the point above concerning the big 2 (H&B) vs. The little guys (sorry Dave!) take the Class 24 we were recently bestowed with and the potential for a similar spec class 25... I have seen some with all 3 (Hornby (detailed) Bachmann and SLW) it doesn't mean that the announcement of another manufacturer will instantly cause scalebacks from potential purchasers, I would favour a DJM 86 with RMWeb input over a new Bachmann any day!

Just my tuppence

Paragon (Jon)

(I wasn't serious about the strawberry blondes btw, I've got one already just thinking future upgrade is all!)

[ThaneofFife]

Not quite, you have the same understanding as me, but came at it a different way; You were stating that there wasn't really enough bits to reuse, so it would mostly be new tooling in any case, I was saying that the working practices these days is to produce a dedicated set of tooling for each model in the main part almost regardless of the fact that there would be duplication and overlap with other tooling. Hornby certainly do this a whole lot, with people noting that there seems to be differences between the mouldings for what should be common tenders on various steam models.

 

The Farish 87 and 90 are an example that the reuse of existing tooling "thing" used to happen (well there's examples all over the old Poole Farish range of this...).

 

id prefer to hear the facts from the manufacturer......cos who really knows finger in the wind guesses aside as processes constantly change.

[rembrow]

Not quite, you have the same understanding as me, but came at it a different way; You were stating that there wasn't really enough bits to reuse, so it would mostly be new tooling in any case, I was saying that the working practices these days is to produce a dedicated set of tooling for each model in the main part almost regardless of the fact that there would be duplication and overlap with other tooling. Hornby certainly do this a whole lot, with people noting that there seems to be differences between the mouldings for what should be common tenders on various steam models.

 

The Farish 87 and 90 are an example that the reuse of existing tooling "thing" used to happen (well there's examples all over the old Poole Farish range of this...).

 

There are significant differences in the way different manufacturers plan their tooling. It's been advised in other threads that Hornby do not use one tool for say a tender, that will be common to a number of models, due to their manufacturing system being to use many factories. So rather than move a tool around between manufacturers, with the risk of damage or loss, they produce a set to cover each model. DJ Models, has shown in the photos for the O2 produced for Kernow and their description of the Class 71 and 74 models, that where it is planned to produce models of types that share the same basis design, but with variations , the tooling can be designed at the beginning to 'future proof' for other derivatives. Thus the O2 was designed to cover a number of variations and in the tooling for the Class 71, certain aspects were built as slides, to enable the tool to be used for the Class 74. This is stated by Dave in his initial posting for the Class 74 crowdfunding project, that the project isn't so reliant on full crowd funding, due to the advance planning for this model in designing the tools for the 71 with probable use for the 74

[frobisher]

id prefer to hear the facts from the manufacturer......cos who really knows finger in the wind guesses aside as processes constantly change.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the Thanks my post got

[steve fay]

I've deleted my original vote and voted for both.

I don't do a lot in 4mm but what I do is all AC. I only have one loco!!! Bachmann 85 so both would be great stable mates. Hopefully there will be enough interest for both to see the light of day.

[DJM Dave]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the Thanks my post got

To be fair, I put thanks on all, to show I've taken the time to read them, not as a political comment.........well not all the time anyway ;-)

[wombatofludham]

[ThaneofFife]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the Thanks my post got

 

every dog and all that.........

[John ks]

I already got an 86 so I went for an 87

 

 

Although I am very partial to any thing with a pantograph on top so I would be happy with either or both.

 

John