New Crowdfunded Class 86 or Class 87

[Gordon H]

A steam model without working motion would be laughed out of town by serious steam modellers. For serious modellers of overhead electrics, a pantograph that can follow the overhead wires, with realistic changes in height for infrastructure is also required. Where is the issue?

 

 

Quite so.

In similar vein, I find myself laughing at posed pantographs, plastic pantographs, diamond frames which should be cross-arms etc, etc.

As far as the wires themselves go, about the most amusing thing to see on layouts is the gravity defying 'curved wire' which somehow manages to follow the track centre between masts.

[frobisher]

Just weighing in on the price thing, but I'd say around £150 (+/- £10) is the sweet spot for this, and if certain features have to be curtailed to get there then so be it. The dcc controlled pantograph and opening doors would be easy sacrifices, ditto sprung buffers. Current pick up from the pantograph is really not essential, but sprung is (if it can also be poseable (somehow) all the better).

[newbryford]

On an electric loco if the pan does not go up and down the wheels won't go round either...

 

They do when being dragged by a diesel.............

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Tricky-CRS]

I wish I shared your optimism, but history isn't on your side, the pound has been on a gradual decline since the 1950s, it reinvents itself about 3-4 years post each recession where it spikes up, but doesn't hold the previous highs, before another crash / recession follows and history repeats itself in the downward trend.

 

http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?A=1&C1=GBP&C2=USD&DD1=&MM1=&YYYY1=&B=1&P=&I=1&DD2=22&MM2=07&YYYY2=2016&btnOK=Go!

 

 

7 years ago we cheered the $2.12 to the £, but imagine that $4.03 = £1 was the high once,  the recessions of the 70s,80s,mid-90s, dotcom bubble, 2009 crash and the Brexit of 2016 have alway iteratively declined the £ on the global scale. since 2009 $1.60s was considered the "new high". Whilst it sounds a sorry story its a stage managed decline, as industry moves eastwards away from the UK, and the government uses inflation as a counter to currency devaluation to reduce the repayment value of it's debts. It then uses the new found credit to invest for a few years creating the spike, before the next crash... its a cycle that repeats approx every 7 years...1978, 1985 ($1.05 = £1 was the lowest ever) ,1991,2001,2009, 2016, 2023..). The UK isn't the only country doing this, whilst reducing the populations lifestyle it does boost the economy with a competitive edge...good if your a producer at home..(Look at asset prices : property, metals even model railways.. they don't go down in the long term due to inflation).

 

Recover it may, but unless Trump gets in, I don't think the £ is likely to see $1.50 again for a couple of years... Like it or not the US controls the global money supply by sheer weight of it's supply, and its where they invest that moves markets, and they only invest to make a profit.. is the UK a more profitable, less risky environment than elsewhere in the world right now..i wouldnt say now, but in a few years maybe...

 

In short, when it comes to model railways we cannot control, influence or even express concern over exchange rates, so unfortunately you have to work with what you have, not what you want.

 

When it comes to planning a model that may take 2 years before you see it, and plan for a few more years ahead of it for sales...well i'd be more cautious than adventurous, but thats myself.

Of course fortune favours the brave and if people are willing to pay todays new reality rate..

Its better to advertise a higher rate and come in lower, than advertise a lower rate and come in higher.

if  the currency does bounce back.. happy days.. but I revert to my 1st line.

In part I suspect this is a blip not the full recession, one individual caused most of this drop. Yes the general direction is downward and the pound will become a bit player. I am just not convinced this is it, patience may work for a couple on months. But I am only giving an opinion based on a gut felling of how things are, having spoken to a few people. I admit I may be over optimistic but a 5 to 10% rise could help a lot. I look forward to being proved wrong as I often am unfortunately.

[Neil]

Here's another wacky variant. Possibly a one piece moulding for the nose-cone and is there some sort of camera enclosure on the rear of the loco's pantograph well?

[Gordon H]

I believe 86244 had a similar camera enclosure when it was being used for Brecknell-Willis high speed pan trials.

[Legend]

Here's another wacky variant. Possibly a one piece moulding for the nose-cone and is there some sort of camera enclosure on the rear of the loco's pantograph well?

Wasnt it a mock up of the proposed High Speed Diesel Train ahead of it coming out. Def don't want that version

[Wolf27]

Here's another wacky variant. Possibly a one piece moulding for the nose-cone and is there some sort of camera enclosure on the rear of the loco's pantograph well?

Already done it, not got the roof camera box though, that's still on the to do list!

S3220010 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

cheers

 

Shane

[jjb1970]

In part I suspect this is a blip not the full recession, one individual caused most of this drop. Yes the general direction is downward and the pound will become a bit player. I am just not convinced this is it, patience may work for a couple on months. But I am only giving an opinion based on a gut felling of how things are, having spoken to a few people. I admit I may be over optimistic but a 5 to 10% rise could help a lot. I look forward to being proved wrong as I often am unfortunately.

I almost said I found it amusing last week on one day when certain newspapers front page headline was that the UK economy was booming after the Brexit vote and celebrating a glorious success on the same day that official figures showed a major drop in the PMI score and indications that the economy is going into recession, however amuse is not the appropriate word.

['CHARD]

It’s a while since someone has said something so nice about me. I once told a friend that my father had said to me, “You’re just odd!” The friend thought it was high praise!

 

I’m not all that freaky, really. I’d only want one motor in my Fell. Three of the rest could go into gas turbine electrics, one into a Class 80 and the last into 10800. The Bulleid diesels are in hand. Aren’t they?

 

If The F*** was a visitor at a fancy dress ball, it would come like this:

 

[Roy Langridge]

It goes back to conversation between Titan and myself ,  I don't think it has anything to do with being a serious modeler. I believe even a non-railway modeler would suss something was up with a steam loco with non moving rods etc.........whether they would notice a pan that moves with the wires height difference ???

 

I leave it at that as we all have different views on what we need and model. 

 

But the point I was trying to make, possibly badly, is that we are talking about a serious model of an electric loco. If people are not serious they can buy one of the previous poorly executed examples. If we are to have a model that is a "definitive 86/87" then it should be suitable for the serious modeller, and correctly portrayed overhead wiring and matching pan are what is needed.

 

Roy

[shunny]

I would say about £170 based on SLW 24 which was model with similar high spec but I fear as Dave mentions we are looking closer to £200 I would probably still go for one but that price would be a tough sell to buy what I like modeller who still make up a large part of the market. This could make it harder to get the required number to crowd fund from the specialist desperate for more top electric models and then we haven't even started to bicker about liveries

"I'm not buying one because he hasn't done the livery of my layout from a wet Tuesday in June 1988 but has done it as it was on a sunny day in April 1989"

The class 71 was easier in a way as there were fewer Liveries but for these electrics to work I feel almost that we all have find one of the first choices available that we like and commit to it even if a bit of modellers licence is needed or I fear we would never make the totals needed. 

[Removed a/c]

But the point I was trying to make, possibly badly, is that we are talking about a serious model of an electric loco. If people are not serious they can buy one of the previous poorly executed examples. If we are to have a model that is a "definitive 86/87" then it should be suitable for the serious modeller, and correctly portrayed overhead wiring and matching pan are what is needed.

 

Roy

I see where you are coming from, but best ask for it to be made as P4 while they are at it then. 

 

[Roy Langridge]

I see where you are coming from, but best ask for it to be made as P4 while they are at it then. 

 

 

Now you talk my language

 

Personally an option for factory fit P4 would be ideal, however, I am happy to have bogies that are able to accept P4 wheels easily and not need hacking about.

 

Roy

[wombatofludham]

I would say about £170 based on SLW 24 which was model with similar high spec but I fear as Dave mentions we are looking closer to £200 I would probably still go for one but that price would be a tough sell to buy what I like modeller who still make up a large part of the market. This could make it harder to get the required number to crowd fund from the specialist desperate for more top electric models and then we haven't even started to bicker about liveries

"I'm not buying one because he hasn't done the livery of my layout from a wet Tuesday in June 1988 but has done it as it was on a sunny day in April 1989"

The class 71 was easier in a way as there were fewer Liveries but for these electrics to work I feel almost that we all have find one of the first choices available that we like and commit to it even if a bit of modellers licence is needed or I fear we would never make the totals needed. 

 

There may have been fewer liveries on the 71 but it had a short operating lifespan and a very restricted sphere of operation compared to the 86, so whilst it made the picking the correct livery decision a bit easier, the fact it was so short lived and restricted to the Kent Coast network would have probably put a lot of people off as much as the "it's not in my favourite livery" issue.  I've not bought a 71 simply because it would be a waste of money for me, whereas I'll probably buy multiple versions of any livery/variant of the 86 (or 87 for that matter) regardless.

 

I suspect the biggest and easiest wins for the 86 livery choices to start with would be Rail Blue, and as built early blue with small yellow ends, simply because these would tie in with the Bachmann Class 85, and we've not had a modern quality 86/AL6 in Rail Blue or early Blue made commercially (if you consider the Heljan 86 to be of good quality, which some would debate).  Early blue as built also taps into the transition era golden zone, whilst Rail Blue is a growing interest area. 

 

I'm sure Dave has his own intelligence research though.

[ThaneofFife]

If DJM is to produce a technically bang up to date definitive 87 like SLW have done with their 24 I believe it should match or exceed the standard Bachmann set with their 85 and not be taking backward steps on the bells and whistles just to save a couple of quid.

 

It should have buffers (OLEO?) sprung with their realistic looking worn silver buffer shanks behind the buffer heads too ( a great working appearance) , a screw link coupler hanging off the buffer beam with draw hook, the fully switchable exterior, cab interior and side corridor lights and pantographs that are as robust as Bachmanns 85 effort.  I dont think opening doors are so important but just as I like sprung buffers the next guy will want opening doors.

Im not looking for an RMweb argument or a debate on why the model should have sprung buffers or a screw link or illuminated side corridor etc. as those tend to lead to lengthy threads that go round in circles.   I just feel that to cut those out is a backwards step to save what.... in the grand scheme of things?  £5, £10, £15? or even £20?   It would be very interesting if Dave could comment on the savings that omitting such features like sprung buffers could typically produce and if the savings are greater then it might sway the argument more to leaving them out but........it sounds to me like youre into the "design clever" sort of corner cutting if one isnt careful.

 

As others have said I would also pay around £150-160 for a top draw 87 dcc ready and say £170-180 with a quality pre-fitted 21 pin dcc decoder so it can be run from the box using all the lighting features.  I also add my support to an option of wheelsets like EM or P4 to avoid bashing the bogie frames.  

 

Somebody also mentioned that lighting features should be authentically matched to the period and soft start lights sounds great too but certainly on those early 70s to the 80s pre high intensity headlight versions, the models need to avoid overly bright LEDs.  The main central headlamp on the 87 was what stood out with the dimmer side markers.  Lets not have dabs of red and white paint on them for heavens sake!  Might as well buy a Limby 87 then.

 

The model needs a heavy weight feel too to a) add to the sense of quality and b) aid traction for greater pulling capacity.  One area I felt the Bachmann 85 lacked in was its surprising light weight feel even for such a short loco compared to say the mass you get when you pick up a small Heljan Type 2.

 

All of the above to also apply should the decision be an 86 and if it aids tooling to have opening cab doors to allow for an 87s doors all to the better I say.

[James90012]

I agree with this - but one comment is that whilst the 85 is relatively light, it has zero issue pulling anything I give it so this is a compromise I can accept. As I've said before, matching the 85 - no better, no worse, should be the starting point and if anything else can be added (not taken away) for reasonable prices that can be considered then.

 

If DJM is to produce a technically bang up to date definitive 87 like SLW have done with their 24 I believe it should match or exceed the standard Bachmann set with their 85 and not be taking backward steps on the bells and whistles just to save a couple of quid.

 

It should have buffers (OLEO?) sprung with their realistic looking worn silver buffer shanks behind the buffer heads too ( a great working appearance) , a screw link coupler hanging off the buffer beam with draw hook, the fully switchable exterior, cab interior and side corridor lights and pantographs that are as robust as Bachmanns 85 effort.  I dont think opening doors are so important but just as I like sprung buffers the next guy will want opening doors.

Im not looking for an RMweb argument or a debate on why the model should have sprung buffers or a screw link or illuminated side corridor etc. as those tend to lead to lengthy threads that go round in circles.   I just feel that to cut those out is a backwards step to save what.... in the grand scheme of things?  £5, £10, £15? or even £20?   It would be very interesting if Dave could comment on the savings that omitting such features like sprung buffers could typically produce and if the savings are greater then it might sway the argument more to leaving them out but........it sounds to me like youre into the "design clever" sort of corner cutting if one isnt careful.

 

As others have said I would also pay around £150-160 for a top draw 87 dcc ready and say £170-180 with a quality pre-fitted 21 pin dcc decoder so it can be run from the box using all the lighting features.  I also add my support to an option of wheelsets like EM or P4 to avoid bashing the bogie frames.  

 

Somebody also mentioned that lighting features should be authentically matched to the period and soft start lights sounds great too but certainly on those early 70s to the 80s pre high intensity headlight versions, the models need to avoid overly bright LEDs.  The main central headlamp on the 87 was what stood out with the dimmer side markers.  Lets not have dabs of red and white paint on them for heavens sake!  Might as well buy a Limby 87 then.

 

The model needs a heavy weight feel too to a) add to the sense of quality and b) aid traction for greater pulling capacity.  One area I felt the Bachmann 85 lacked in was its surprising light weight feel even for such a short loco compared to say the mass you get when you pick up a small Heljan Type 2.

 

All of the above to also apply should the decision be an 86 and if it aids tooling to have opening cab doors to allow for an 87s doors all to the better I say.

[jjb1970]

My own feeling is also that the Bachmann Class 85 would be an ideal benchmark to match as it achieved an excellent balance between realism and detail with affordable cost and good running qualities. I'm sure you could improve on it if you wanted to but then you get into the sort of arms race mentality where things just take up a momentum of their own which is detached from any rational considerations. My only upgrade would be to provide current collection from the pan providing it didn't adda lot to the cost.

[YesTor]

If DJM is to produce a technically bang up to date definitive 87 like SLW have done with their 24 I believe it should match or exceed the standard Bachmann set with their 85 and not be taking backward steps on the bells and whistles just to save a couple of quid.

 

It should have buffers (OLEO?) sprung with their realistic looking worn silver buffer shanks behind the buffer heads too ( a great working appearance) , a screw link coupler hanging off the buffer beam with draw hook, the fully switchable exterior, cab interior and side corridor lights and pantographs that are as robust as Bachmanns 85 effort.  It would be very interesting if Dave could comment on the savings that omitting such features like sprung buffers could typically produce and if the savings are greater then it might sway the argument more to leaving them out but........it sounds to me like youre into the "design clever" sort of corner cutting if one isnt careful.

 

Totally agree on all of this, and worth emphasising again IMHO.

[wombatofludham]

Can I just inject a note of caution here?  A lot of people have been saying that they would be happy with a price point of between £150 and £175, but reading Dave's post on the impact of currency fluctuations, reading between the lines we might be looking at north of £200 for a non-DCC fitted loco.  We don't yet know how long the currency turmoil will last but given the negotiations to leave the EU will take a minimum of two years, we can be certain that they won't settle anytime soon, and even then, it's probable that they will remain lower than pre-referendum levels simply because of the circumstances.  We also hear regular nay-sayers trotting out the "ac electrics don't sell" line which I think is a self fulfilling prophesy but there is an odd irrational dislike of electrics amongst certain sections of the rail enthusiast community which will mean that sales will probably not be on the same lines as the SLW "definitive" Class 24 which was a popular, small diesel seen widely over the network.  So, we have a perfect storm of currency costs and smaller market combining to push prices beyond what people are saying they would be comfortable with.

 

​Which begs the question, at what point do we start looking at "value engineering" to get the best possible model at a price people are prepared to pay, and what features will be sacrificed to help bring costs down?

Take for example sprung buffers.  When Bachmann announced their new price rise programme a couple of years ago, they said that sprung buffers added pounds to a model, I seem to recall a figure of £2.50 per buffer being mentioned, which adds £10 to the cost of a loco.  If that is correct, then is it really worth having them if removing them knocks a tenner off the price?  Cab lights.  I never use them, but I suspect adding them when you are already paying someone to assemble a lighting array for the cab fronts probably won't cost much - but if, for the sake of argument, it added a couple of pounds per cab, how important would that be given that most people probably won't use them as trains tend not to be driven with cab interior lights blazing?  Could they not be sacrificed if they add a significant cost?

 

For me the important things are correct shape, correct features and detail for the variant/time period of the model, basics like a good pantograph (working current collection / motorised not essential but made of metal is preferable) and separate handrails, working external lights, and ease of sound provision, and if these are delivered it will still be the definitive Class 86 or 87.  I'm prepared to pay for this list of essentials, and if that is nearer £200 than £150, then so be it, but I won't be terribly happy if a shedload of non-essential gimmicks like sprung buffers or opening doors are included because people say they must have them only to find that it pushes the price beyond £200 and sales collapse as a consequence, putting back the whole AC modelling agenda still further and giving the oxygen of publicity to the "AC electrics are sales lemons" brigade.
 

Hopefully things are not as grim or black and white as I've painted, but I can't help thinking we really need to start defining a sensible list of "red lines" for the model, and listing those items which we are happy to sacrifice if it allows the cost to be cut, trying to keep the price point below £200 if this project is to move forward.  Personally I would like to buy many new Class 86 or 87 models, not one showpiece.

[stewartingram]

Although as I stated earlier, I am not in the market for these (out of area/not core collection/anti coreless motors), I do wish the project well. However, on the point of sprung buffers, I am one of many who have abandoned tension lock couplings, (relying on S&W myself though others are in use). Sprung buffers with closer coupling, where buffers actually get used, are, shall we say, very useful. I would rate them far higher than working lights and opening doors. Lights are very unrealistic as leds are too bright and og the wrong colour temperature in general, whatevr era you model, even more so when going back to the pre TOPS periods.

 

Stewart

[Removed a/c]

Another thing I was wondering if it would be possible to do dummy locos? 

[jjb1970]

I think models of electric prototypes will increase in popularity as the electric network increases in size and electric traction becomes increasingly familiar to more people as well as being more and more the norm. Not that long ago third rail electric trains were as rare as rocking horse droppings in RTR but now there are some splendid models, hopefully we'll see a similar growth in popularity of 25KV types. The Bachmann Cl.350 and Cl.85 models are both superb, it would be nice to see a good 86 and 87 and more EMUs.

 

On the models and price, it is a balance between cost and detail. I think it is easy to decry value engineering but I think very few people will write a blank cheque and most customers will have certain expectations around quality and detail. Hornby were villified for their design clever concept, for all that was badly implemented and a bit of a disaster the fundamental conflict between trying to control price inflation whilst minimising customer pushback against measures to reduce cost is neither unique to Hornby nor is it going away. I think it is not just about cost either, if you want to run a model on a layout then it needs to be robust enough to be handled and some of the ultra-fine details which are possible are uneccessary anyway. Which is why I really think models like the Cl.85 hit a real sweet spot. Really, even if you look at that model closely, what could really be criticised? There is more than sufficient detail, yes if you went mad with an etched brass mixed media approach you could improve it but it'd add a lot to the cost as you'd be way up the diminishing returns curve, I'd bet that the difference wouldn't be noticeable if running it on a layout and people would end up being scared to touch it in case something fell off. Make an 86 or 87 to the same standard, for a similar price and I think it'd sell well.

 

One of the potential silver linings of the price inflation is it may make manufacturers take a step back from doing stuff because they can and look at what modellers really want. A few years ago a senior engineer from ABB made a classic reply to a question. A guy from the MoD was whinging about alarm overload and questioning why companies like ABB load up their control systems with 1000's of alarms, the vast majority of which are totally unnecessary and actually cause more trouble than they're worth. The answer was classic "it's like asking why does a dog lick its balls - because it can". I think there is some truth in that comment when it comes to models too.

[YesTor]

For me the important things are correct shape, correct features and detail for the variant/time period of the model, basics like a good pantograph (working current collection / motorised not essential but made of metal is preferable) and separate handrails, working external lights, and ease of sound provision, and if these are delivered it will still be the definitive Class 86 or 87.

 

It sounds as though the existing Hornby Class 86 will tick a good number of your boxes - "Correct shape, correct features and detail for the variant/time period of the model), separate handrails etc..."

 

With all due respect, and taking external features only into account here, and surely we have progressed beyond the era of "separate handrails and working headlights" alone as representing the epitome of the "definitive model"?  We've had features like this for the past twenty years or more.  On one hand everyone is supposedly crying out for the "definitive" 86/87, yet at the same time saying, "Oh, we don't want etched grilles, or sprung buffers, or etched wipers, or interior lights, or... etc etc the list goes on". 

 

So, to summarize... moulded grilles, no opening doors, no sprung buffers, not too fussed about the pantograph, no close coupling.... and oh, if you can knock 'em out Dave for under 100 quid, then sweet.  I repeat... Railroad 86 anyone...?!  *rolls eyes*

 

Seriously, what no one seems to be considering is that any new model designed and produced at the current time, if done well, will most likely be the market-leader for the next 10 - 15 years (maybe more) as far as the market is concerned for that particular prototype.  So in this respect surely if its worth doing then its worth doing well? 

[YesTor]

Which is why I really think models like the Cl.85 hit a real sweet spot. Really, even if you look at that model closely, what could really be criticised? There is more than sufficient detail...

 

Indeed, the Bachmann 85 is very nice, although I wouldn't go as far as to say that there is more than sufficient detail.  Sure, its crisply moulded and the pantograph is indeed very nice, and perhaps most important of all is that the general shape and appearance seems correct.  Okay, I appreciate that I'm perhaps adopting a slightly hardcore approach here, but aside from that ask yourself, where does the model truly excel? To be brutally frank, it really doesn't break any boundaries, or push the barrier any further than the bulk of previous models. 

 

One area that I strongly feel could be improved - and this applies to most diesel/electric models currently on the market from most manufacturers - is bogie frames, which for the most part, are still one-piece mouldings.  Having viewed the SLW Class 24 close-up very recently, I really do feel that this is one area that this new model excels way above what has been done before.  Take a really close up look at the SLW Class 24 bogies, followed by Bachmann's Class 85 bogies, and there's no competition.

 

At the end of the day I suppose it really depends upon what any manufacturer wants to achieve.  Of course there has to be some balance, but if its an okay-ish model that can be retailed for around 100 quid then compromises will no doubt be made.  If on the other hand if its something genuinely eye-catching and potentially groundbreaking that the manufacturer wants to be renowned for then we have to accept that its going to cost a little extra. 

 

I know which side of the fence I'm on, and its not the "Oh, let's knock another tenner off the price and leave off the sprung buffers, lights, wipers, blah blah blah brigade"

 

Just my two-penneth.