Southern's Timetable Reduction

[cromptonnut]

There is a risk that a far greater number of people than can be carried even by an A380 in high density configuration may start doing silly things like forcing open doors and wandering around on the tracks, there is a risk of fire on diesel stock as was witnessed at Ladbroke Grove, and panic can set in. 

 

Apparently a normal configuration A380-800 carries 534 passengers with a theoretical maximum of 853.

 

The new Thameslink Class 700's which are DOO are designed for 427 seats, 719 standing (8-car = 1146) or 666 seats, 1,088 standing (12-car = 1754)  That's the design capacity, not the potential maximum capacity of the "rush hour overcrowded" service.

[phil-b259]

It does seem to be a case of double standards.

 

And....

 

If you want to go down that route why do we demand zero accidents on the railways yet are quite happy to put up with thousands of people killed every year on the road network.

 

Life is full of 'double standards' as you put it - and much comes down to what society is prepared to accept risk wise. If you examine anything hard enough you will always be able to come up with a 'what if' scenario to justify a particular point of view.

 

All the safety regulators have said DOO is safe, precisely because of the extra requirements put upon BR to allow it to be introduced in the first place. We have also had over three decades of practical experience to demonstrate this. However much you try and twist it, the statistics don't lie - DOO has been proved to just as safe / dangerous as two conventional person operation.

 

Legitimate reasons for having additional on train staff thus have to be based on the customer service angle - which it is relatively easy to make a convincing case for. By all means have them trained up so they can act appropriately in an emergency - but you need to remember the railway network is designed such that we try and avoid emergency situations occurring in the first place. Its why we go to some much trouble installing fail safe kit on both the trains and the track plus draw up procedures to cope with failures (e.g. a Faulty TPWS or GSM occurring in service means passengers must be removed from the train at the soonest opportunity then its a one way trip to the depot). Trying to justify a second member of staff simply on the basis of a 'what if' emergency scenario is no different to using the Dawlish sea wall problems to justify re-opening the LSWR line to Plymouth. In both situations while the secondary benefit is welcome, it remains just that - a secondary or incidental bonus - and the battle has to be fought on other factors that present themselves on a daily basis.

[roundhouse]

Looks like the station staff have voted for industrial action now.

 

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/gtr-station-staff-vote-to-strike160816/

 

I presume this is staff used to dispatch trains aswell as ticket office staff?

 

If so how will this affect the running of service during strike days such as places like Redhill?

[Gwiwer]

Looks like the station staff have voted for industrial action now.

 

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/gtr-station-staff-vote-to-strike160816/

 

I presume this is staff used to dispatch trains aswell as ticket office staff?

 

If so how will this affect the running of service during strike days such as places like Redhill?

 

 

I believe it depends upon location, grade and demarcation as to who does what.  I'm not right up to speed but as far as I am aware stations staffed by Southern have booking office staff on different rosters to platform staff.  It is platform staff, where they exist, who despatch trains.  Different arrangements may apply to those locations staffed by non-Southern staff such as London Bridge and Gatwick Airport.

 

Comments made above regarding the unstaffed stations overlook the fact that those stations are not on routes scheduled for DOO(P) operation.  Coastway routes in particular have been mentioned several times as unsuitable for various reasons for such operation meaning there will remain two staff on every train at all times and for the present it will be the non-driving person who controls the doors and supervises starting.  Unstaffed stations will not normally be served by DOO(P) trains.

[cromptonnut]

Although the proposed changes only really affect ticket office staff, all station staff were balloted over the station host issue.

[roundhouse]

Yes its the platform staff that I am really referring to re strikes.

 

Will also be interesting to see what happens if our season ticket requires renewing during ticket office strike closures but I suppose that we will just have to plan ahead when it gets close to running out.

[cromptonnut]

Will also be interesting to see what happens if our season ticket requires renewing during ticket office strike closures but I suppose that we will just have to plan ahead when it gets close to running out.

 

It'll be the same as every other weekly/monthly renewal, people leave it till the last minute then expect a 5 minute transaction to be done in 30 seconds because "they are in a hurry".

 

I think the inconvenience people will suffer will be a good taster to the poor service they will gain going forward if the plans go ahead as they are.

[lmsforever]

On the BBC news this lunchtime showed passengers arguing with distinctly stroppy strikers and also had a woman on saying that a new BR would solve all the problems including  lower fares.Judging by her age she obviously never experienced BR so don't think she or her organisation have any credibility.

[phil-b259]

Looks like the station staff have voted for industrial action now.

 

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/gtr-station-staff-vote-to-strike160816/

 

I presume this is staff used to dispatch trains aswell as ticket office staff?

 

If so how will this affect the running of service during strike days such as places like Redhill?

 

The thing is I was given to understand that traditionally booking office staff were members of the TSSA - not the RMT. However platform dispatch staff are a separate matter and if GTR intend for former booking office staff to move onto the platform that could cause conflict with platform staff who might see such a move as a threat.

 

The biggest problem we have got is that because industrial relations are so low on Southern, any change immediately gets the unions going for the nuclear option so to speak.

[cromptonnut]

The thing is I was given to understand that traditionally booking office staff were members of the TSSA - not the RMT. However platform dispatch staff are a separate matter and if GTR intend for former booking office staff to move onto the platform that could cause conflict with platform staff who might see such a move as a threat.

 

In general terms, "operational" staff (ie platforms) are RMT and "clerical" staff (ticket office) are TSSA. However you also have the "GPR" grade who can cover ticket office, gateline or platforms so they'll be a bit of both.  You also have the concern from platform/gateline staff that they will then get more questions if the ticket office aren't there to provide times, connections etc (either as a reduced service, or the queue was too long) so in many ways it does affect all station staff. 

 

It might also increase the guard's workload (if there is one...) by more people wanting to buy tickets on the train because they don't know how to work the machines or the queue at the remaining ticket person was too long.

 

TSSA ballot papers are apparently going out next week.

 

Oh, and 'less staff' will definitely not mean lower fares.

[roundhouse]

It'll be the same as every other weekly/monthly renewal, people leave it till the last minute then expect a 5 minute transaction to be done in 30 seconds because "they are in a hurry".

 

I think the inconvenience people will suffer will be a good taster to the poor service they will gain going forward if the plans go ahead as they are.

We normally renew ours the evening beforehand or on a Sunday but these days the queues on a Sunday can be quite long so we try to avoid Sundays where possible.

 

Phil - yes I can see any small dispute being escalated these days now till relations improve all round including with DFT.

[cromptonnut]

We normally renew ours the evening beforehand or on a Sunday but these days the queues on a Sunday can be quite long so we try to avoid Sundays where possible.

 

You should be able to renew up to a week before the expiry date.

 

Sundays we only have one window open from 4.30pm. 

[The Stationmaster]

In your comprehensive reply you seem to have forgotten Great Northern services, all DOO and which mirror the "Normal Southern" scenario (I can assure you there are no staff at Waterbeach or Watlington, for example).

 

And the GN services have been DOO for decades.

 

So, why doesn't the union point out the massively increased rate of fatalities/ accidents/ people with disabilities left abandoned at GN stations compared to Southern stations?

 

Could it, perhaps, be that there is no statistically significant difference? I have no idea: it would just be nice for the discussion to be based on facts rather than anecdotes and emotions.

 

Interesting that some posters above appear to be arguing in favour of the closure of all ticket offices and instead sales of tickets on trains - after all, the ticket office staff apparently "don't know what the[y']re doing over there". Yet in another part of GTR land, the union is campaigning against the movement of ticket office staff from their offices to the machines. It's a strange world.

 

Paul

 

Another interesting comparison is the GWR London suburban area where DOO(P) has been the situation for a long while.  At many stations, especially west of Reading, there are no platform staff and both there and east of Reading at the smaller stations the sole ember of staff on duty is normally in the ticket office - especially during the morning peak which is one of the busiest times of day in terms of passengers entraining/detraining.   This all seems to work quite safely and with little or no delay during most station dwell times despite some trains loading to capacity - albeit probably not at Southern levels of ridership.

 

However the situation is there, it exists - and has done for some years - and it works.  Similarly the move to manned booking offices by other than clerical staff took place on the Western many years ago (and by many I mean more than 40 years ago) as it meant that unlike a booking clerk the member of staff could also encompass other duties but the busiest stations retained booking clerks although in a number of cases there were no other staff at the station.  It all seems to work and has worked for years without any problems.

 

Perhaps we should member that overall there has always been strong resistance to DOO(P) operation on various parts of the former Southern Region - and it isn't necessarily down to passenger numbers or worries about little old ladies getting on & off trains.

[The Stationmaster]

The thing is I was given to understand that traditionally booking office staff were members of the TSSA - not the RMT. However platform dispatch staff are a separate matter and if GTR intend for former booking office staff to move onto the platform that could cause conflict with platform staff who might see such a move as a threat.

 

The biggest problem we have got is that because industrial relations are so low on Southern, any change immediately gets the unions going for the nuclear option so to speak.

 

Booking office staff were normally clerical (there are exceptions - see my previous post) and would, rightly, be TSSA members.  Any proposal to reduce booking office hours or eliminate posts has always been a matter for consultation with the relevant staff reps - which basically means it has nothing whatsover to do with the RMT - in fact it isn't even a union head office issue anyway as its consultation, they can bluff and bluster 'til the cows come home but it is nothing to do with them.

 

Basically what we appear to have is a management chucking everything but the kitchen sink (so far) into its cost cutting measures pot at a time when it's already got a major dispute on its hand plus it is in any case under resourced to run the train service it is required to run as a part of its franchise agreement.  There was an old saying about digging yourself into a hole and knowing when to stop digging - this bunch don't seem to have that message so in some respects they (or more likely their idiot masters at DafT are just making bigger rods for their own backs.

 

I suspect the next stage is likely to be some sort of action by the passengers which will involve mass, very deliberate, ticketless travel to express their opinion of the management while no doubt occasionally berating staff for striking.

[roundhouse]

You should be able to renew up to a week before the expiry date.

 

Sundays we only have one window open from 4.30pm. 

Often only one open much of the day on our last few Sunday visits with the one person working hard due to queues. Maybe we were just unlucky.

[cromptonnut]

Often only one open much of the day on our last few Sunday visits with the one person working hard due to queues. Maybe we were just unlucky.

Depends when you come, of course - the second person may be on a break, or dealing with an 'assistance', or emptying the car park machine, or filling up one of the ticket machines, or cleaning, or one of the many other jobs we are expected to do as well as having the window open during the 8 hr 45m shift minus the 20 minutes we get for a break.

[The Stationmaster]

Depends when you come, of course - the second person may be on a break, or dealing with an 'assistance', or emptying the car park machine, or filling up one of the ticket machines, or cleaning, or one of the many other jobs we are expected to do as well as having the window open during the 8 hr 45m shift minus the 20 minutes we get for a break.

 

Crikey - you get breaks nowadays?  That's quite innovative for booking offices - not all that many years ago the 'break' in a single manned office was when there weren't any passengers/enquirers at the window and at one place where I worked I used to time my booking office visits so the booking clerk could have some food while I covered the window for him although one of our former S&DJt Line folk always protested that he'd covered his own break for years so it wasn't necessary (he was former Station Master as it happened).

[cromptonnut]

Crikey - you get breaks nowadays?  That's quite innovative for booking offices - not all that many years ago the 'break' in a single manned office was when there weren't any passengers/enquirers at the window and at one place where I worked I used to time my booking office visits so the booking clerk could have some food while I covered the window for him although one of our former S&DJt Line folk always protested that he'd covered his own break for years so it wasn't necessary (he was former Station Master as it happened).

 

It is, of course theoretical... and 20 minutes isn't even enough to go to McDonalds across the road or reheat a microwave meal really. 

[phil-b259]

 

Basically what we appear to have is a management chucking everything but the kitchen sink (so far) into its cost cutting measures pot at a time when it's already got a major dispute on its hand plus it is in any case under resourced to run the train service it is required to run as a part of its franchise agreement.  There was an old saying about digging yourself into a hole and knowing when to stop digging - this bunch don't seem to have that message so in some respects they (or more likely their idiot masters at DafT are just making bigger rods for their own backs.

 

There is also a political dimension - the next General election isn't due to 2020, taking on the unions now means that by the time the next general election comes round the politicians can bask in the glow of a new Thameslink / Southern franchise rather than have the negative vibes from the current situation hanging in the air.

 

But if the DfT want all the cost cutting done before 2018 (when the Thameslink works are due to be finished) so they have a lean and profitable franchise (with new trains and a big chunk of new infrastructure) to generate maximum returns in premium payments to the Treasury when it gets re let (as a proper franchise - not a management contract), they (DfT) cannot afford to hang about. This is particularly true in an environment where, as we have seen with the conductors dispute, the unions will resist any change tooth and nail resulting in long running disputes.

[roundhouse]

Depends when you come, of course - the second person may be on a break, or dealing with an 'assistance', or emptying the car park machine, or filling up one of the ticket machines, or cleaning, or one of the many other jobs we are expected to do as well as having the window open during the 8 hr 45m shift minus the 20 minutes we get for a break.

Fully understand  (and I hope my comment wasn't taken as a criticism as quite often the sole person on the window is flat out working) that its not just selling tickets and with the types of questions you get on a Sunday plus people cashing in delay repay vouchers. We are all human and need breaks so Southern so need to add more staff on a Sunday.

 

Recently my other half went in one morning and only one window open with someone cashing in a large pile of vouchers. I went after she came back (so we didn't have to lock the house up in the hot weather) and again the one ticket window manned with someone else cashing in a (I guess) a season ticket which was not a quick process.

 

I believe that there should be more staff on duty on a Sunday but the feedback I had from Southern customer service about a year or so ago when three of the four ticket machines were out of order is that it isn't cost effective to have more staff on a Sunday and was told that I got it wrong that the machines were out of order yet I know what I saw.

[roundhouse]

It is, of course theoretical... and 20 minutes isn't even enough to go to McDonalds across the road or reheat a microwave meal really. 

 

Its not the fastest Mc D's in the world either.

 

many years ago I would visit a friend who worked in a travel centre (the friend no longer works on the railways) I would often spend time there till his shift finished so would get to see first hand some of the daft questions and requests asked, such as what time is the next train to London. He would give the times etc then be asked what time is the one before that then the one before that only to then be asked what time is the one after the first timings that he gave and so on.

 

Another time some one asked which platform the train was from. There was only one platform.

 

Of course there would be many sensible journey requests but some of them would be quite complicated yet the friend could often rattle off the connections without reference to a timetable which would really throw the customer.

 

He used his travel passes to the max all over the country hence knowing the connections.

[cromptonnut]

Unfortunately on occasions if we had 10 windows open it still wouldn't be enough.

 

The proliferation of delay repays, some people cashing in £200+ at a time, takes ages for us to process and there's nothing we can do about it except remind people to cash them in regularly and keep the cash rather than wait till their annual is up for renewal and they bring in a two inch thick pile of them.

 

As for broken TVM's, if there is just one person on they can either man the window, or fix the machines - not both.  If the machines are left broken, people complain.  If we close the window to fix the machines, people complain.  Unfortunately all of us 'front line' staff are the ones that get the brunt of passenger frustration, whether it's our fault or, more often than not, not our fault.

[cromptonnut]

Its not the fastest Mc D's in the world either.

 

One thing that isn't GTR's fault.

[caradoc]

For a comparison between the safety of trains with or without Guards, the best example would be Scotrail, which has operated Driver-only passenger trains on many routes since 1985; Does the Glasgow/Ayr service have a worse passenger accident record than, say, the Edinburgh/Dunblane service, to choose two roughly similar examples ? On my local route, Glasgow Central/Neilston, only Glasgow Central has platform despatch staff; Of the remaining stations, a few have a booking office staffed most of the day, some have a morning shift only, and one (Patterton) has no booking office at all. I can only say that I have no qualms travelling on this service and have done so since 1991. 

 

The bottom line is that railways are expensive to operate, so there will always be pressure to reduce costs. Note the BBC News story today about rail fare increases, both in the past and to come, leading the unions to call for fare reductions, along with maintenance of existing staff levels, if not increased staffing. Where do they think the money to pay for this will come from ?  

[cromptonnut]

People often miss the point that the increased costs are due to satisfying shareholders primarily, and the various overlapping levels of operation all with their individual costs.

 

It had to be much cheaper to operate when one company ran everything, and no shareholders creaming off the profit primarily overseas.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/revealed-how-the-world-gets-rich-from-privatising-british-public-services-9874048.html