More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, 41516 said:

I don't know if it's just due to what I've seen and what I currently have (examples below), but wagon labels from Etwall c1900 seem to be surprisingly common for a small station on the GN extension between Egginton Junction and Derby.  Did someone there save a collection which has slowly drifted out over time?

 

Yes, I think that's how it goes. The Midland Railway Study Centre has quite a number of wagon labels for wagons consigned to Bere Alston around the turn of the century - I imagine there are even more in the hands of LSWR collectors. Chance survivals that provide a window into the business of a small station. It would be good to collate them all but once they're dispersed into the hands of private collectors that becomes impossible - and they're at risk of loss.

[Compound2632]

On 01/12/2023 at 07:59, Compound2632 said:

Up bright and early for a trip to Kew but the first off-peak train to Waterloo has been detimetabled (or whatever the slang is now for cancelled) so I won't get there until 10:30. Although it's South Western Railway's turn for the strike next Wednesday, the overtime ban is already biting, it seems.

 

A minor inconvenience in the light of No. 1 Son's journey from Durham last night. Wires were down between Newark and Retford and the fog was so thick the repair crews couldn't find their way around for a good while. So one-and-a-half hours wait at York and another two hours in a queue of southbound trains waiting for a queue of northbound trains to clear the temporary single-line section at much reduced speed, then two hours at Paddington as most late-evening trains were cancelled due to the overtime ban, until an all-stations stopper at about 2am. Fortunately we have an all-night bus; he got here at 3:30am. We'd originally expected him at 10:30pm. Why he goes via London rather than via Birmingham continues to be a mystery to me.

 

I got through all the stuff I was looking at at Kew quite quickly and was away by 3:15pm - home at 4:45pm. Mostly S&DJR material, as reported here:

 

[Compound2632]

Now here's an interesting photograph (or photograph of a photograph) from a Facebook post:

 

 

I've found another version of this photo online, but obviously touched-up:

 

 

And also, on Ebay, a (dubiously) colourised version of a different photo of the same subject, with even more wagons, including some D299s, in the background:

 

The location is Stanley Ferry on the Aire & Calder Canal near Normanton:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/125644591.

 

The lines are those of the St Johns Colliery Railway, running past the grounds of Newland Hall to St Johns Colliery and the North Midland line, just north of the junction with the Manchester & Leeds (Lancashire & Yorkshire) and south of Normanton station:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/125646426.

 

The main subject is a "Tom Pudding", a type of tub boat that was made up into trains of boats working down to Goole. It has been brought from the colliery on a rather sturdy-looking transporter truck which is evidently about to be rolled down the slipway to launch the tub. Those must have been quite an alarming sight to anyone used to the usual size of railway wagons!

 

But of course my attention has been drawn to the wagons on the left, which carry the characteristic cross of Lorraine marking of St John's Colliery wagons:

 

 

[See also Bill Hudson, Private Owner Wagons Vol. 3, plates 37-39.]

 

Now the wagons in the photo are dumb buffered, so, built no later than 1887. "Newlands" features heavily in the Skipton Minerals Inwards Ledger for 1897-8, supplying 1895.5 tons of coal in the six months October-March, 25% of the total tonnage of coal coming in, the great majority of it for the coal merchant J.J. Robinson. But all 367 wagon-loads were dilvered in Midland wagons. My suspicion had been that Locke & Co. didn't start acquiring their own wagons until the 20th century. I can't find any Midland registrations; the wagons illustrated in Hudson Vol. 3 are Charles Roberts products and the one pre-grouping example (1916) was registered with the L&Y. So I'm wondering if these dumb-buffered wagons were second-hand purchases and perhaps internal use (on the colliery railway) only. This might indicate that the photo itself is not necessarily pre-Great War.

[jamie92208]

A very interesting photo of a fascinating subject. I once spent quite a bit of time trying to make a plan for a layout that fearured this, plus the aquedect on the main canal.  There is a very convenient overbridge behind the photographer.  The loco was used to act as a brake to lower the Tom puddings down into the water. And to haul them out.not coupled ditectly but via a large pulley block.  I think that they reversed to pull the empties out and ended up ready to couple up to the carrier trolley.  

 

As to Locke and Co I'm not sure who they bought their wagons from.  Possibly the remaining uncopied L and Y register volumes may provide clues.  

 

J J Robinson had rent of a complete siding at Skipton where the current EMU stabling depot is.  Obviously not where coal was unloaded.  I will see what I can find out about Robinsons.

 

St John's colliery sidings were alongside and connected to the Midland Main Line near Goose hill Junction. They have gone now.  However our late Queen had tea there during her Silver Jubilee tour in 1977.  What salubrious surroundings.  She then went to some sort of Gala performance in Leeds via Woodlesford.  I saw the roof of the Royal Train as it passed under Dewsbury Road in South Leeds.  I was on my way to work to spend 12 hours sitting in her seat at Elland Road to keep it safe. 

 

Jamie

[figworthy]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Now here's an interesting photograph (or photograph of a photograph) from a Facebook post:

 

 

I've found another version of this photo online, but obviously touched-up:

 

 

And also, on Ebay, a (dubiously) colourised version of a different photo of the same subject, with even more wagons, including some D299s, in the background:

 

The location is Stanley Ferry on the Aire & Calder Canal near Normanton:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/125644591.

 

The main subject is a "Tom Pudding", a type of tub boat that was made up into trains of boats working down to Goole. It has been brought from the colliery on a rather sturdy-looking transporter truck which is evidently about to be rolled down the slipway to launch the tub. Those must have been quite an alarming sight to anyone used to the usual size of railway wagons!

 

 

 

The B&W version seems to pop up all over the place, there are probably several versions of it on here.

 

Quote

The main subject is a "Tom Pudding", a type of tub boat that was made up into trains of boats working down to Goole. It has been brought from the colliery on a rather sturdy-looking transporter truck which is evidently about to be rolled down the slipway to launch the tub. Those must have been quite an alarming sight to anyone used to the usual size of railway wagons!

 

To put it into perspective, a fully loaded Tom Pudding would carry ~40 tons, and a full length train would be 19 of them.

[Krusty]

There was a very good article on Tom Puddings in The Industrial Railway Record issue 90 back in 1981.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Krusty said:

There was a very good article on Tom Puddings in The Industrial Railway Record issue 90 back in 1981.

 

But as usual, it's not the subject of the photo that I'm interested in but the wagons in the wings!

[sir douglas]

Ive got a photo of that pudding wharf and loco from the other side but im not at the computer right now

[jamie92208]

Going back to Locke and Co. They would have a need for a, ot of the internal user wagons. The only place, as far as I know, that could unload Tom Puddings at that time, was Goole docks.  This only export coal would go in them.  One of the tipplers is preserved at Goole.  In the 1960's a modernised version using 200 ton pans, was introduced to feed Ferrybridge C power station. Where there was a tippler for the big pans.  

 

Many other markets were served by barges on the canals, such as Kelton Grange and Kirkstall at Leeds plus Elland and Thornhill power stations.  Plus other industrial customers such as the Coop in Leeds and Elida Gibbs, aka Soapy Joe's and Whitehall power station, next to Leeds station.  This traffic would be loaded via a tipple at Stanley Ferry but would be brought down from the colliery by rail.. 

 

Obviously railborne coal would be loaded at the colliery.  

 

Robinson was founded by a Henry Robinson of Settle who was a lime burner and coal factor.  He ran various quarries at Ingleton and near Skipton over the years. He had wagons built by Beadman's and Charles Roberts if that helps. The lime and coal trades in that area were intertwined with wagons loaded in both directions.  

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Robinson was founded by a Henry Robinson of Settle who was a lime burner and coal factor.  He ran various quarries at Ingleton and near Skipton over the years. He had wagons built by Beadman's and Charles Roberts if that helps. The lime and coal trades in that area were intertwined with wagons loaded in both directions.  

 

Careful there - there are three Robinsons in the Skipton Mineral Inwards Register:

• H. Robinson & Sons - as you say, their wagons are known, and known ones appear in the register. About 7.6% of the coal is consigned to them, much from Pope & Pearson's West Riding Colliery at Altofts, in their wagons, also from Carlton Main, in their wagons, and from G. Hough (that I haven't traced but probably on the L&Y since their wagons come onto the Midland at Methley) - I think they are the customer with the lowest proportion of consignments in Midland wagons, only 14 out of 81 wagon-loads.
• J.J. Robinson, as discussed above, with 22.1% of the incoming coal, almost all from St Johns Colliery in Midland wagons.
• W. Robinson, with 9.2% of the incoming coal, almost all from New Sharlston Colliery, Oakenshaw, mostly in the Colliery's wagons, Midland wagons accounting for 21 out of 107. He also had three loads from Ackton Hall Colliery, in their wagons.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Compound2632
more accurate percentages

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Careful there - there are three Robinsons in the Skipton Mineral Inwards Register:

 

Prompted to do some more number-crunching. Those three are in the top five but in second and third place we have:

• T. Murgatroyd, 13.2%, mostly from Houghton Main, in an approximately three-way split of colliery wagons, Midland wagons, and his own.
• T. Thornton, 11.6%, mostly from West Riding Colliery in Pope & Pearson's wagons and his own, but about a fifth from St. Johns in Midland wagons.

These top five account for nearly two-thirds of the traffic.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

The wagon orders start as H Robinson and son  from Beadman, in 1898, no's 5 to 14 in two batches

Then 15 to 24from Roberts in 1898

Mssrs J Robinson start at 1 to 20 in 1901and 02 .from J L Claye in 2 batches.

Robinson H and sons 16 to 28 from C Roberts in 1904

 

The company

Name changes twice.  Johnson, in his book on the Lime Industry

Mentions that Robinson was not a very successful businessman so potentially the family might have renamed the business as fortunes ebbed and flowed. 

 

Jamie

[moore43grm]

9 hours ago, sir douglas said:

Ive got a photo of that pudding wharf and loco from the other side but im not at the computer right now

Something like this ?

 

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, moore43grm said:

Something like this ?

 

"Compartments" - that's a bit staid after "Tom Puddings". If anything is known about the St Johns Colliery Railway it'll be the locomotives. Any offers on Newland No. 2's dates?

Edited December 3, 2023 by Compound2632

[figworthy]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

"Compartments" - that's a bit staid after "Tom Puddings".

 

Compartment boats seemed to be the official name for them.

 

Adrian

[jamie92208]

8 hours ago, figworthy said:

 

Compartment boats seemed to be the official name for them.

 

Adrian

And they had a false bow called a Jebus lashed between the first compartment and the tug.  All invented by the Chief Engineer to the Aire and Calder Navigation, Mr Bartholomew, IIRC. 

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

The wagon orders start as H Robinson and son  from Beadman, in 1898, no's 5 to 14 in two batches

Then 15 to 24from Roberts in 1898

Mssrs J Robinson start at 1 to 20 in 1901and 02 .from J L Claye in 2 batches.

Robinson H and sons 16 to 28 from C Roberts in 1904

 

J, Robinson is a different firm to H. Robinson & Sons.

 

 

[moore43grm]

3 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

And they had a false bow called a Jebus lashed between the first compartment and the tug.  All invented by the Chief Engineer to the Aire and Calder Navigation, Mr Bartholomew, IIRC. 

 

Jamie

 

11 hours ago, figworthy said:

 

Compartment boats seemed to be the official name for them.

 

Adrian

 Look up "Yorkshire Waterways Heritage Society" they have numerous interesting photos under their "Tom Pudding" entry.

[sir douglas]

ive got works numbers for many st john locos but oddly never found anything for this No2

 

-MW 487-1875 (2') 0-4-0 -later votty & bowydd slate "Meirion", Blaenau Ffestiniog
-MW 646-1877 "st john" (SG) 0-4-0
-MW 713-1879 "newland" (SG) 0-4-0 -later to Par docks as "Punch" and rebuilt VB, scrapped 1944
-HC 338-1889 "st John" (SG) 0-4-0
-HC 351-1892 "st john" (SG) 0-4-0
-JF 5180-1886 (SG) 0-4-0
-K  4175-1902 "newland No1" (SG) 0-4-0
-K  4738-1910 "St John No3" (SG) 0-4-0
-HC 1884-1955 "cathryn" S.102 (SG) 0-6-0 -Peak Rail 2023

 

also

Edited December 4, 2023 by sir douglas

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, sir douglas said:

i-K  4175-1902 "newland No1" (SG) 0-4-0

 

Logically, Newland No. 2 would therefore  be later than 1902...

 

1 hour ago, sir douglas said:

-K  4738-1910 "St John No3" (SG) 0-4-0

 

... but St John No. 3 was the fourth St John! I suppose the first had been scrapped or sold by 1910, so there were only two others on the books.

 

A nice bit of wagon lettering there, especially the double cross. The curly ends make it not really a cross of Lorraine, perhaps it was unique to the owners of Newland. (Upthread, I was recommended articles and a book on Newland which I'm afraid I haven't followed up yet.)

[MikeOxon]

2 hours ago, moore43grm said:

 

 Look up "Yorkshire Waterways Heritage Society" they have numerous interesting photos under their "Tom Pudding" entry.

A wonderful collection and difficult to believe that the most recent photos are from the 1980s

[figworthy]

11 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

And they had a false bow called a Jebus lashed between the first compartment and the tug.  All invented by the Chief Engineer to the Aire and Calder Navigation, Mr Bartholomew, IIRC. 

 

Jamie

 

Indeed.

 

The compartment boats, also called pans were introduced in 1865.  At their peak, they moved just over 1.5M tons of coal in 1913.  That helped to make the Aire & Calder Navigation company more prosperous than most railways at that time.

 

William Hammond Bartholomew was granted a payment of £1000 by the company in 1871 for their use of his patents on this.

 

To bring us back to railways, W.H. Bartholomew's brother, Charles, was (amongst other things) the engineer for the South Yorkshire Railway, which later became part of the MS&LR.

 

Adrian

[figworthy]

21 hours ago, figworthy said:

 

Compartment boats seemed to be the official name for them.

 

 

Something that has just spring to mind.  There was a layout at the Stafford Show this year that had something that looked very much like a loaded Tom Pudding on it.  The strange thing was that it was a GWR/LMS model.

 

Adrian

[Compound2632]

On 03/12/2023 at 12:43, Compound2632 said:

G. Hough (that I haven't traced but probably on the L&Y since their wagons come onto the Midland at Methley)

 

Not, as I thought, the name of a factor, but Glass Houghton Colliery, Castleford, on the L&Y Methley Branch: https://maps.nls.uk/view/125644690.

 

 

[Embedded link to Yorkshire Post article; 1920s/30s, I suppose.] 

 

There is an article on this colliery in Turton's Eighth Collection, illustrated by wagon No.606, a Hurst, Nelson product, in an earlier, plainer livery style than seen above, but of indeterminate date. Turton says The Glass Houghton Colliery Co. started working the colliery in 1902 but the colliery was evidently a going concern well before that; the Durham Mining Museum site's earliest date is 1894: 

http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/g202.htm

probably under the ownership of T. H. Thorp Ltd., Castleford.

It is on the 1888/90 OS 25" survey:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/125644687.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

wagon No.606, a Hurst, Nelson product, in an earlier, plainer livery style

 

 

Embedded link to the Rapido PO Wagon site.  As it happens I have one of these Glasshoughton ones to come on pre-order. 

 

Certainly Glasshoughton coal was coming to Cumbria - the lovely little Lower Holker Coop's one single wagon (yes, their Number 1, built by Hurst Nelson, 4 planks, curved ends) was "empty to Glass Houghton Castleford" (not Pontefract!). 

 

If @SteamAle gives his blessing I will post a photo of this wagon - but better not just now as it is part of the Cumbrian Railways Association Shillcock Collection. 

 

All the best

 

Neil