More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[drduncan]

39 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

They are rare and usually distant or obscured. There's one here, I believe: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3641.htm

Why oh why is it always the wagons you are interested in whose numbers are obscured. It must be the wrath of the Derby gods at work... or maybe Euston is the font of all evil?

[magmouse]

There is a drawing of a 3-plank wagon in Lavender's Railway Equipment Drawings. It is based on the drawing in the Proceedings of the "Proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers" 1884 Plate 68, online here: https://archive.org/details/proceedings1884inst/page/n727/mode/2up (the plates are at the back, so scroll to near the end). Tavender notes that his drawing is modified to "agree with photos no. 3867 in GWR Appendix 1936" (page 234 of the appendix).

 

Lavender's drawing also shows the alternative round/raised end, and gives the number 36067 for this - he doesn't give a source for that info, however.

 

@Chrisbr - do you have the register for 36067?

 

As @Mikkel notes,  photos of the round ended type seem to be frustratingly distant. Another example is in GWR Goods Services Vol 2B, page 301, which has a photo of Devonport Goods Depot, no date given but the shed was opened in 1903. The photo shows three-plank wagon No. 3661, still with round ends - excerpt:

 

 

 

Mikkel has previously noted other sightings in the same book series:

Quote

 

* There is one to be seen near the tip of the crane in the wonderful photo of Vastern Road yard in GWR Goods Services Vol 2A, pages 18-19.  This has small pre-1904 GWR insigna. The photo is from 1905 or later, as a few wagons have the 1904 large "GW", including an O2 7-planker built 1905.

 

* In the same volume on page 16 is a photo from Kings Meadow yard, which clearly shows a round-ended wagon that looks like a GWR 3-planker to me (extreme right). The insignia cannot be seen though. Again, the livery on other wagons are a mix of pre- and post 1904.

 

 

(from:

 

Nick.

[corneliuslundie]

I have Len Tavender's Coal Trade Wagons but this is the first time I have heard of his Railway Equipment Drawings. It seems to be as rare as hens' teeth, not in stock anywhere secondhand.

J

[Chrisbr]

51 minutes ago, magmouse said:

@Chrisbr - do you have the register for 36067?

Sadly not yet

[Chrisbr]

55 minutes ago, magmouse said:

photos of the round ended type seem to be frustratingly distant

Which is odd give that 3520 were built before this note appeared in the Order book

and only 2910 after.....

[Chrisbr]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But I await expert advice!

Sadly neither 67xxx, 71xxx, 39xxx or 30xxx feature in the collection yet...

[Chrisbr]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

The photo shows three-plank wagon No. 3661, still with round ends

3661 (second wagon to carry the number) built as one of 200 to Lot 247 as Renewals in Nov 1881 and lasted to Oct 1919

[Mikkel]

Much as I relish a GWR 3-plank "takeover" of the D299 thread, Duncan has a thread on 3-plankers here which has now expanded in scope, so I've posted a few more photos there.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Mikkel

[Western Star]

16 hours ago, magmouse said:

 Another example is in GWR Goods Services Vol 2B, page 301, which has a photo of Devonport Goods Depot, no date given but the shed was opened in 1903.

 

 

 

Mikkel has previously noted other sightings in the same book series:

@chrisbr - unless my eyes deceive me (glasses still undergoing heavy general) then this photo extract shows two GWR 4-plk wagons and each appears to have "L" angle end stanchions.....  so are these examples of the couple of thousand 4-plks which were built before Swindon started using dwg 7925 for the 4-plks?

 

@magmouse - as the appointed S7 specialist on loads, what is being carried by 45964 that seems to be staining the wagon?

 

rgds, Graham

 

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

what is being carried by 45964 that seems to be staining the wagon?

 

I don't think we should necessarily assume that the current load is the one that stained the wagon. In the full picture, there are another two wagons in the rake with a similar load to 45964 - something that packs level, and seems to be in block form. The next wagon has some heaped, loose material, and 3 more beyond that which are hard to determine, but possibly more bricks/blocks.

 

This photo was discussed previously in this thread, and @Compound2632 made a model of one of the other GWR 4-plankers in the rake that has the staining just on the door - presumed to have run down the outside face of the door while the door was hanging down, open. The load in Stephen's model is Calstock fire bricks - see

 

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Much as I relish a GWR 3-plank "takeover" of the D299 thread, Duncan has a thread on 3-plankers here which has now expanded in scope, so I've posted a few more photos there.

 

Very welcome and informative - and thanks for the link to @drduncan's thread which I had seen when first he posted but had not kept up with. Apropos of the Didcot provender store photo that began this little excursion, I now understand that the T-section iron end stanchions seen on the round-ended 3-plank wagon are not incompatible with timer / flitched frames.

 

Mention was made of the round-ended 3-planker to be seen in the c. 1905 Vastern Yard photo. Here's my merciless crop and enlargement:

 

 

... from which I think the only information to be extracted is that it has its number on the LH and G.W.R on the RH end, which is hardly news.

 

I couldn't see one in the corresponding c. 1905 shot of Kings Meadow yard but here's an interesting crop and enlargement from that photo:

 

 

A Midland D299 of course and a C&G Ayres road lorry pulled by a small road engine (has somebody been buying TT120 in error?) but the interesting wagon that I don't think has been discussed before (at least not in this thread) is the high round-ended wagon, with GWR sheet, that has all the appearance of a tilt wagon of the 1840s! It's presumably not quite that old but as far as I can see there's no evidence for the Great Western building such things after the late 60s, for the standard gauge at least.

[Compound2632]

22 hours ago, drduncan said:

Euston is the font of all evil?

 

 

Or did you mean fount?

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 70438, captioned: the water fountain at Derby Station with sign above reading ‘Dixie Drinking Cups’. A vending machine dispenses cups for ½d.]

[Compound2632]

19 hours ago, Chrisbr said:

Which is odd give that 3520 were built before this note appeared in the Order book

and only 2910 after.....

 

Trying to make that tally with my notes from GWR Goods Wagons (3rd edition)...

 

19 hours ago, Chrisbr said:

3661 (second wagon to carry the number) built as one of 200 to Lot 247 as Renewals in Nov 1881 and lasted to Oct 1919

 

Handy to know, as the aforementioned bible is weak on dates, so this helps with orientation, though I appreciate that lots were not necessarily built (or completed) in lot number order.

 

But I'm in no position to criticise Swindon for starting one wagon before they'd finished the other...

[MikeOxon]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the high round-ended wagon, with GWR sheet, that has all the appearance of a tilt wagon of the 1840s!

This is very interesting to me since I modelled a standard gauge tilt wagon on rather scanty evidence.

 

'Somewhere', I read that a few broad gauge tilt wagons were 'narrowed' by removing the central section of the ends, which resulted in a pointed Gothic arch.  The photo shows that this was not necessarily the case as this wagon has retained a rounded profile, like my model 🙂

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MikeOxon said:

This is very interesting to me since I modelled a standard gauge tilt wagon on rather scanty evidence.

 

I had in the back of my mind that you'd modelled one but I'm afraid had assumed yours was broad gauge. I note a round-ended 3-plank appearing in that blog post too!

Edited December 21, 2023 by Compound2632
sp.

[Chrisbr]

7 hours ago, Western Star said:

@chrisbr - unless my eyes deceive me (glasses still undergoing heavy general) then this photo extract shows two GWR 4-plk wagons and each appears to have "L" angle end stanchions.....  so are these examples of the couple of thousand 4-plks which were built before Swindon started using dwg 7925 for the 4-plks?

41340 was definitely built to 7925 (Lot 573, listed on the drawing) and I'm not sure I'd commit either way on the end stanchions, but 45964 was also built to 7925 (Lot 509) and I would say that has L shaped end stanchions, not the T section shown on the drawing......!

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Chrisbr said:

41340 was definitely built to 7925 (Lot 573, listed on the drawing) and I'm not sure I'd commit either way on the end stanchions, but 45964 was also built to 7925 (Lot 509) and I would say that has L shaped end stanchions, not the T section shown on the drawing......!

 

I am making a tactical decision to ignore this information...

[Compound2632]

As an aside on the question of wagon hire, on making my annual visit to Waitrose to collect the turkey this morning, I noticed that their trolleys are labelled "On hire from Trolley Hire Services Ltd."

Edited December 22, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

"On hire from Trolley Hire Services Ltd."

 

A 7-year hire with a mid-contract repaint? If only at the end of each aisle there was an inspector and a repair hut, where defective trollies would be stopped and have their errant wheels fixed.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all readers of and contributors to the D299 Appreciation Thread! May all your wagons be wonderful and none of your trucks troublesome!

 

 

[Embedded link to MRSC 88-2015-0434, DY8958 Derby Locomotive Works, snow scene, view from Photographer's office window, 29 December 1908.]

[magmouse]

And the same good wishes right back to you, Stephen! Thanks for starting and hosting this thoroughly enjoyable and informative thread.

 

That is a wonderful picture - somehow feeling much more recent than 1908. I think it is the somewhat ‘snapshot’-like viewpoint and composition, quite different to the considered, formal choices of most official photos. One feels the scene just appealed to the photographer, so he shot it, with no requirement to do so or purpose in mind. Now, a hundred and fifteen years later, we share his delight in what he saw, and a human connection is made across time and space. Happy Christmas, everyone!

 

Nick.

[Mikkel]

Thank you Stephen, have a merry Christmas and thank you for this excellent thread.

 

A lovely photo, as Nick says it is nice to see the company photographer's personal perspective here.

[Compound2632]

I should give the Midland's photographer his name: Thomas Albert Scotton. He joined the company in 1883, becoming Assistant Photographer in 1891 and Chief Photographer in October 1894 on the death of the previous holder of that position, who happened to be his father. He retired as LMS Chief Photographer in June 1932. So you will undoubtedly have seen a great many of his photographs.

[Chas Levin]

As above Stephen, thank you for the continually interesting thread, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 👋🏻

[Dave Hunt]

Happy Christmas and a peaceful and prosperous new year to all.

 

Dave