More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Yes, I believe so. The characteristic J-shape of the side knee washer plate, curving towards the middle of the wagon at the bottom; the pattern of bolts on the corner plates; the short brake lever; and what look very like 8A axleboxes - i.e. a wagon built no later than 1889. Also 8-ton capacity. The tare of 4-14-0 is perhaps a little on the light side - 5.0 to 5.2 more typical in Midland service.

Between 1905 and 1916, the Midland sold just over 6,000 old 8-ton wagons (presumably mostly D299) to John F. Wake of Darlington, up to about 1912 in partnership with R.Y. Pickering & Co. of Glasgow and after that with Ernest E. Cornforth of Stoke-on-Trent. So it's probable that the MSC obtained its wagons via one of these dealers.

That's very interesting - thank you. And we know the MSC later bought former Midland rolling stock from a dealer in Darlington (the carriage we discussed last week). It all sounds very plausible if impossible to prove over a century later. I shall have to add a Slaters D299 kit to my shopping list!

 

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The 4-plank wagon has a rather distinctive cross marking but not one I immediatel recognise. The oval plate is, I suppose, an owner's plate. The buffer dangling by a thread looks like one of the self-contained types, so this might be a conversion from dumb buffer but there's no sign of a diamond-shaped 'reconstructed' plate. 

 

Does that chalk mark really say Reading?

I'm unlikely to model that one, just thought it looked quite interesting.

I think the mark says Ready, possibly indicating it was good to go from a private siding? Before it went, of course, it doesn't look good to go any further now!

 

Mol

 

[Northroader]

I think the 4plank job is very modellable, if only we knew what the cast plate says. The solebars look flitched, no crown plates, then there’s the vertical strapping at the ends, no corner plate or straps except for a wrap around at the top, the end isn’t a flat top but raised in the middle with tapering flanks, and no diagonal strapping, presumably the continuous top plank provides the support. Continuous top plank on a four planker? It’s got both sides brakes and levers, so it’s really quite up to date.

 

edit: p.s. I thought the coaling operation looks good, a line of p.o. wagons James Ke??? of Liverpool, dumb buffers on the siding, and a more modern one dangling over the ship. I hope they’re going to lower it down a bit and shovel it out, no end door to open,  “Bombs away!”…

Edited January 6 by Northroader

[Mol_PMB]

8 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I think the 4plank job is very modellable, if only we knew what the cast plate says. The solebars look flitched, no crown plates, then there’s the vertical strapping at the ends, no corner plate or straps except for a wrap around at the top, the end isn’t a flat top but raised in the middle with tapering flanks, and no diagonal strapping, presumably the continuous top plank provides the support. Continuous top plank on a four planker? It’s got both sides brakes and levers, so it’s really quite up to date.

The whole scene would make a rather splendid diorama, quite challenging to model the state of dismemberment though!

[Mol_PMB]

13 minutes ago, Northroader said:

edit: p.s. I thought the coaling operation looks good, a line of p.o. wagons James Ke??? of Liverpool, dumb buffers on the siding, and a more modern one dangling over the ship. I hope they’re going to lower it down a bit and shovel it out, no end door to open,  “Bombs away!”…

 

There a quite a few photos of that coaling crane in operation. The crane itself was owned by Knowles & Sons and most photos show just their wagons being used too.

 

 

 

 

Note that the coal is being loaded as a cargo rather than for ship's bunkers - one of the vessels appears to be a sailing boat.

Also some variety among the wagon liveries. The wagon cradle looks like it could discharge via bottom doors as well as end doors?

 

Mol

 

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Note that the coal is being loaded as a cargo rather than for ship's bunkers - one of the vessels appears to be a sailing boat.

 

Only the third ship is a steamer, all the others are schooners. 

[Northroader]

Then you wonder at small sailing vessels coming up the ship canal to Manchester, suppose they’d need a tugboat?

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Then you wonder at small sailing vessels coming up the ship canal to Manchester, suppose they’d need a tugboat?

 

I don't see why, if the wind was right? Plenty of sailing up navigable rivers...

[Mol_PMB]

I was just flicking through Essery's Midland Wagons volume 1 to check some D299 details, when it happened to fall open at page 168.

And that answered a question that had stumped me for ages and I was going to pose on this thread.

Let me introduce you to MSC Railway 5888, one of the breakdown vans used in the 1950s and early 1960s until replaced by some former GWR Toads.

 

I'm pretty sure that this is an MR D3882 weighing machine adjusting van (or S&T repairing van), of which only a handful were built.

Note that we can see through the droplight of the single door on this side, to the double doors on the opposite side as shown on the diagram in Essery.

I hope this is of interest.

 

Can anyone identify its mate, MSC 4283? That doesn't seem to be a Midland vehicle. X-shaped iron bracing and cattle-wagon style doors. Of course it may have been modified by the MSC themselves.

 

While we're on the very rare MSC vans (and I fear I'm taking this thread too far off-piste), here's the R.E.D. van 240:

I suspect this is in a different number series as I think this is a very early LMS van based on Midland practice, and therefore it wouldn't have existed when the MSC number series was below 1000.

Sadly I don't know what the van was used for, I suspect the word 'TOOL' or 'STORES' is lurking below R.E.D. behind that partly-open door!

Also partly seen here next to one of the RED coaches.

Cheers,

Mol

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I don't see why, if the wind was right? Plenty of sailing up navigable rivers...

Sailing vessels were only seen on the upper reaches of the MSC in the very early days, and tugboats were generally used.

The height restriction from the bridges (limited by the Runcorn railway bridge which pre-dated the canal) was also a problem for sailing vessels (and larger steamers).

Mol

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

Yes, now that's very interesting. Any idea of date?

 

I cam across this gallery: http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/manchester/m35.htm

which includes some sailing ships, the largest with masts lowered, but unclear whether they came up the canal under their own steam, so to speak. Plenty of construction photos.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, now that's very interesting. Any idea of date?

 

I cam across this gallery: http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/manchester/m35.htm

which includes some sailing ships, the largest with masts lowered, but unclear whether they came up the canal under their own steam, so to speak. Plenty of construction photos.

The photo of 5888 is dated 22/3/1958.

Being numbered in the 5000s would suggest that it was bought by the MSC in the 1950s which may explain its reasonably smart condition and later-style livery compared to the adjacent 4283.

 

There was a short-lived port at 'Saltport' near where the Weaver joins the MSC (i.e. below the Runcorn bridge) and the larger ships rarely went further than that. I think the photos of sailing ships on that site are probably there.

Mol

 

[Schooner]

7 hours ago, billbedford said:

Only the third ship is a steamer, all the others are...

...the same schooner (99% sure), photographed three times on the same occasion (90% sure).

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't see why, if the wind was right?

Although I don't know about the MSC specifically, canal management coys normally prohibited making way under sail alone for a variety of reasons; so probably tug. You're right though, a flatman with a favourable breeze would be itching to cast off his tow (but only to save money).

 

Source

 

Somewhere on the internet is a scan of a fantastic period diagram of how to get a brig up a river. With an awful lot of hard work and some very smart handling, in short. The kind of thing best avoided if possible.

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the largest with masts lowered

Not just lowered but topmasts being set up or struck; the kind of job wouldn't happen very often in a Victorin merchantman's life, if ever. The reefed bowsprit was pretty common, though.

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...but unclear whether they came up the canal under their own steam, so to speak

Would suggest reasonably clear they came under their own steam (not sail) or hitched to someone else's!  Geat gallery, much to enjoy, and set me on the way to this, which is rather good:

...if totally irrelevant :)

Edited January 7 by Schooner
Oar stuck in, but I really should finish reading threads before I start replying to them...

[jamie92208]

The ship with the topmadts struck down was almost certainly to enable it to get under bridges.  ISTR that there was a wharf at the western end of the canal that had a crane to take bits of masts and funnels off. These were then parked on the wharf till the ship returned and were then replaced.  The 'parking area' for the various bits would have made an interesting model. 

 

Jamie

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

The ship with the topmadts struck down was almost certainly to enable it to get under bridges.  ISTR that there was a wharf at the western end of the canal that had a crane to take bits of masts and funnels off. These were then parked on the wharf till the ship returned and were then replaced.  The 'parking area' for the various bits would have made an interesting model. 

 

Jamie

Yes, the sheerlegs and crane berths immediately above Eastham Locks on the south side. The demasting crane isn't there any more, but the wharf is still used as a lay-bye.

Here's a tanker berthing there in 2022 (my pic):

Demasting was only necessary for ships going above Runcorn, because that's the location of the first overbridge.

So ships for the wharves in the Ellesmere Port, Stanlow and Runcorn areas could proceed with no restriction on air draught.

Ships which regularly served Manchester were usually built or modified to fit.

 

Sorry for extending the tangent off this thread.

Back to pre-grouping wagons, do you think MSC 4283 could have been one of these, or something similar?

https://hmrs.org.uk/-aby312--12t-van-lne-98488-xner-tarpaulin-roof-hatch-f3r--wb-9-6--lower-drop-dr--upper-cupboard-doors.html

I don't have any books on NER wagons to check the options.

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

[Worsdell forever]

14 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I was just flicking through Essery's Midland Wagons volume 1 to check some D299 details, when it happened to fall open at page 168.

And that answered a question that had stumped me for ages and I was going to pose on this thread.

Let me introduce you to MSC Railway 5888, one of the breakdown vans used in the 1950s and early 1960s until replaced by some former GWR Toads.

 

 

Can anyone identify its mate, MSC 4283? That doesn't seem to be a Midland vehicle. X-shaped iron bracing and cattle-wagon style doors. Of course it may have been modified by the MSC themselves.

 

That is an early NER G2 van, it would have originally had a canvas roof door and it looks like the drop door has been cut in half and incorporated into the cupboard doors as each door has 3 hinges.

[corneliuslundie]

I think it is time this thread was renamed "Everything you ever wanted to know about wagons - or didn't know you wanted to know".

All fascinating stuff even when completely irrelevant to my modelling.

Jonathan

[Mol_PMB]

19 minutes ago, Worsdell forever said:

 

That is an early NER G2 van, it would have originally had a canvas roof door and it looks like the drop door has been cut in half and incorporated into the cupboard doors as each door has 3 hinges.

Many thanks. A very good spot on the door modifications - I hadn't spotted that as the middle of the doorway is partly concealed by that strategically-placed pole.

I'm no expert on NER vans but having had a quick google of the G2 I see there are various different planking arrangements and although there's a 7mm scale kit from Midland Carriage Works, that's a vertically planked version.

I'm not actually planning to model these breakdown vans, as the later GW Toad conversions fit my modelling era better. But they are interesting pre-grouping vehicles!

Mol

 

P.S. Some spectacular doors on this one I've just found pictured online:

Edited January 7 by Mol_PMB
P.S.

[Schooner]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

The ship with the topmadts struck down was almost certainly to enable it to get under bridges.  ISTR that there was a wharf at the western end of the canal that had a crane to take bits of masts and funnels off.

 

Hmmm...what we're seeing in that photo isn't temporary. Either the masts are being set up or they are being taken down - I'm pretty sure she's being fully rigged, or fully de-rigged.

 

Only the lower masts need any kind of crane, and it's perfectly possible to set those up on board - exactly as we see with the sheer legs in the photo. Also interesting that she looks as light as can be, little if any ballast, let alone stores or cargo. No sign of any running rigging, yards, or canvas on deck or on the dock.

 

Was there a big build yard or graving dock uphill of the bridge? What was the height of the bridge deck? (Sorry, lazy to ask but quicker!)

 

Fun stuff :)

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Was there a big build yard or graving dock uphill of the bridge? What was the height of the bridge deck? (Sorry, lazy to ask but quicker!)

 There was a small shipyard at Old Quay, Runcorn, which was above the Runcorn bridge, but I don't think it built sailing vessels in the MSC era.

There were large graving docks in Manchester but I'm not aware of any new vessels being built there - plenty of repairs, conversions and scrappings.

The bridges permit vessels with an air draught of 70 feet.

All the bridges built by the MSC were made to give the same clearance as the pre-existing Runcorn railway bridge.

 

For a tendril back towards railways, some of the ships scrapped in the Manchester dry docks yielded their steel to Taylors in Trafford Park where it was melted down and made into wheelsets!

Mol

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think it is time this thread was renamed "Everything you ever wanted to know about wagons - or didn't know you wanted to know".

 

No. That would attract people only interested in all-steel 16-ton mineral wagons.

[Schooner]

What are they? 

[Schooner]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

There was a small shipyard at Old Quay, Runcorn, which was above the Runcorn bridge, but I don't think it built sailing vessels in the MSC era.

 

Famous in its day though, lending its name to the regional take on the topsail schooner - cheaper and more flexible carrying capacity at the expense of sailing and sea-keeping performance. A quick google should net a good set of photos of the schooner Snowflake of Runcorn (1880), particularly one in Mevagissey showing the typical short round stern.

 

Eurgh, alamy's rubbish low-rez (compared to Getty etc) previews.

 

A little more context here, in @The White Rabbit's thread:

 

70' is low - that's all the sticks out territory for any deep-sea trader; the flats should've been alright though. But cruciually I suppose the entire point of the MSC was forward-looking, to get steamers to the city. Does what it says on the tin!

Edited January 7 by Schooner
Pics added

[MrWolf]

58 minutes ago, Schooner said:

What are they? 

 

A plater's nightmare.

 

As in - "What would you like me to weld this patch to ?"

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

A plater's nightmare.

 

As in - "What would you like me to weld this patch to ?"

A problem you would also have with a North British 16t mineral wagon* (trying to find a pre-grouping angle)

 

Mol

 

*unless someone's invented wood welding?

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

A problem you would also have with a North British 16t mineral wagon* (trying to find a pre-grouping angle)

 

Mol

 

*unless someone's invented wood welding?

 

The scarfing joint is your friend here. It's when the coach bolts start revolving in their holes that the fun starts in my experience. 🙄