More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Buhar]

My heart always leaps a little whenever I see activity on this topic, thank you Stephen and all the other knowledgeable contributors, merry Christmas to you all.

 

Was snow traffic a good source of revenue for the Midland?  Although the capacity of a D299 was probably a bit sub-optimum for its density.

 

Alan  

 

 

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Was snow traffic a good source of revenue for the Midland?  Although the capacity of a D299 was probably a bit sub-optimum for its density.

 

The snow harvest was a valuable source of additional revenue on the S&C section:*

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 31493]

 

even as late as 1947:

 

 

 

[Embedded links to catalogue thumbnails of MRSC 66376 & 66377.] 

 

*At least, for p/way and loco dept. staff on overtime.

[jamie92208]

Funnily enough the Illinois central used to run trains  of Gondolas full of snow south from Chicago unti it melted. Tnen back to the windy City to get loaded again.  I suspect that this was not revenue generating traffic.

 

Joyeux Noel Stephen to you and yours.

 

Jamie

Edited December 24, 2023 by jamie92208

[wagonman]

On 21/12/2023 at 14:59, Compound2632 said:

 

Very welcome and informative - and thanks for the link to @drduncan's thread which I had seen when first he posted but had not kept up with. Apropos of the Didcot provender store photo that began this little excursion, I now understand that the T-section iron end stanchions seen on the round-ended 3-plank wagon are not incompatible with timer / flitched frames.

 

Mention was made of the round-ended 3-planker to be seen in the c. 1905 Vastern Yard photo. Here's my merciless crop and enlargement:

 

 

 

A Midland D299 of course and a C&G Ayres road lorry pulled by a small road engine (has somebody been buying TT120 in error?) but the interesting wagon that I don't think has been discussed before (at least not in this thread) is the high round-ended wagon, with GWR sheet, that has all the appearance of a tilt wagon of the 1840s! It's presumably not quite that old but as far as I can see there's no evidence for the Great Western building such things after the late 60s, for the standard gauge at least.

 

There were definitely a few still kicking around in the early 1900s. I have a photo somewhere, given to me by the late David Hyde, of an iron bodied tilt wagon apparently still in use c1900. I'll try to find it before the year is out...

 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by wagonman

[sir douglas]

Some wagon photos from Twixtaireandcalder.org.uk which is a wakefield council online photo gallery

 

A William Robinson of Skipton at Sharlston

https://www.twixtaireandcalder.org.uk/image-detail/?id=11319

 

A partial Sharlston

https://www.twixtaireandcalder.org.uk/image-detail/?id=11173

 

A load of wagons at Walton but its a bit too blurry to read

https://www.twixtaireandcalder.org.uk/image-detail/?id=3125

 

Airedales as far as the eye can see at Allerton

https://www.twixtaireandcalder.org.uk/image-detail/?id=1901

 

Hemsworth with a Ramskir of Thorne

https://www.twixtaireandcalder.org.uk/image-detail/?id=6575

 

South Kirkby with a partial "Fletch" maybe Fletcher

https://www.twixtaireandcalder.org.uk/image-detail/?id=13012

[jamie92208]

Some good photos there.  I don't have my spreadsheet with me but the Robinson no 4 could be a Beadman. The Allerton Bywater shot is well known.  Probably a publicity shot when Allerton and two other Collieries amalgamated as Airedale Collieries. 

 

Jamie

Edited December 30, 2023 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

A William Robinson of Skipton at Sharlston

 

In the Skipton Mineral Inwards Register, Oct 1897 - Mar 1898, W. Robinson (not yet & Son) ranked fourth among the consignees, with 715 tons over the six months, 9.2% of the total - a boit more than H. Robinson & Sons but less than half of the amount taken by J.J. Robinson. He was a customer of New Sharlston Colliery almost exclusively - just three out of 107 wagon-loads were from elsewhere - Ackton Hall. However, at this time it would appear that he had no wagons of his own, since his coal came in the colliery's wagons with a smattering of Midland wagons.

 

33 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

A load of wagons at Walton but its a bit too blurry to read

https://www.twixtaireandcalder.org.uk/image-detail/?id=3125

 

Could be read as "Sharlston West Colliery"?

 

Loaded with bricks?

 

[jamie92208]

Another nice one that turned up on Faceache today.  Taken at High Royds Hospital Menston which had an electrified private siding serving the boiler house.  Traces of it can stillbe seen.  The PO wagon looks like R Thacker of which I have no details but definitely in Beadman territory.

 

Jamie

 

[Flanged Wheel]

Thank you @jamie92208 for sharing that fascinating image from High Royds. I could see the hospital from my childhood bedroom window and have seen a number of pictures of the tramway but it’s the first time that I’ve seen this particular picture.

 

I suspect that the recent redevelopment of the site has eradicated many of the traces of the tramway. There are hints of the underpass that took the line under the A65 and down to the exchange sidings with the Ilkley branch. I have included a shot from Google Earth below that shows the area today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wagon writing (to my eyes) seems to say “H Thacker” with “Bradford” in the lower right corner. On page 204 of the 1884 Kelly’s Bradford Directory (see https://www.bradfordfhs.org.uk/_resources/tradedirectories/kelly-s-bradford-directory-1881.pdf), there is an entry for a coal merchant by the name of Henry Thacker at the Great Northern depot in Adolphus Street and I would hazard a guess that this is the owner of the wagon.

 

Like many others, I greatly enjoy the depth of knowledge and expertise that is shared on this thread. It is one of my favourite on the forum and a veritable treasure trove. I’d like to wish all the contributors and readers a very Happy New Year and look forward to learning much more over the coming twelve months.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Flanged Wheel
Formatting.

[jamie92208]

9 hours ago, Flanged Wheel said:

Thank you @jamie92208 for sharing that fascinating image from High Royds. I could see the hospital from my childhood bedroom window and have seen a number of pictures of the tramway but it’s the first time that I’ve seen this particular picture.

 

I suspect that the recent redevelopment of the site has eradicated many of the traces of the tramway. There are hints of the underpass that took the line under the A65 and down to the exchange sidings with the Ilkley branch. I have included a shot from Google Earth below that shows the area today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wagon writing (to my eyes) seems to say “H Thacker” with “Bradford” in the lower right corner. On page 204 of the 1884 Kelly’s Bradford Directory (see https://www.bradfordfhs.org.uk/_resources/tradedirectories/kelly-s-bradford-directory-1881.pdf), there is an entry for a coal merchant by the name of Henry Thacker at the Great Northern depot in Adolphus Street and I would hazard a guess that this is the owner of the wagon.

 

Like many others, I greatly enjoy the depth of knowledge and expertise that is shared on this thread. It is one of my favourite on the forum and a veritable treasure trove. I’d like to wish all the contributors and readers a very Happy New Year and look forward to learning much more over the coming twelve months.

Thanks for that information.  H Thacker looks to be a certainty.  The hospital obviously needed a lot of coal and probably had contracts with one or two local Merchants.  As Thacker was based on the GN there is a good chance that he ordered from Beadman.  I wonder if any similarities can be found with other Beadman wagons. 

 

Jamie

Edited December 31, 2023 by jamie92208

[wagonman]

On 29/12/2023 at 21:32, wagonman said:

 

There were definitely a few still kicking around in the early 1900s. I have a photo somewhere, given to me by the late David Hyde, of an iron bodied tilt wagon apparently still in use c1900. I'll try to find it before the year is out...

 

 

 

 

 

I couldn't find it in my files (not an uncommon event) but then I remembered it was being used as a bookmark in the Atkins/Beard/Tourrett 'bible'...

 

Got it just in time! Happy New Year everyone!

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by wagonman

[Chrisbr]

What a wonderful photo, thanks for digging it out!

 

29382 (BG 2002) described as an Iron Tilt. Converted in Feb 1876 and condemned in Sept 1896, so the date of the photo is somewhat suspect......

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

I couldn't find it in my files (not an uncommon event) but then I remembered it was being used as a bookmark in the Atkins/Beard/Tourrett 'bible'...

 

Yes, that's the photo @MikeOxon used for his wagon:

 

 

(linking to it again because I keep loosing it!)

 

... but this is a better reproduction than in his blog.

 

14 minutes ago, Chrisbr said:

29382 (BG 2002) described as an Iron Tilt. Converted in Feb 1876 and condemned in Sept 1896, so the date of the photo is somewhat suspect......

 

Note also G.W.R at the LH end and number at the RH end. But presumably the late survivors were much the same in appearance.

 

Now, I'm thinking: this is all riveting stuff - very rivety in fact - but out on the road it would be sheeted over, so...

[wagonman]

   3 hours ago,  Chrisbr said: 

29382 (BG 2002) described as an Iron Tilt. Converted in Feb 1876 and condemned in Sept 1896, so the date of the photo is somewhat suspect......

 

The date was my guess based on no hard information.  Only 4 years out! If the photo was taken before withdrawal it may not have been in revenue service. Alternatively it could have been taken after withdrawal when it was eking out its last days as an internal user wagon, albeit without the X marking. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, wagonman said:

The date was my guess based on no hard information.  Only 5 years out! If the photo was taken before withdrawal it may not have been in revenue service. Alternatively it could have been taken after withdrawal when it was eking out its last days as an internal user wagon, albeit without the X marking. 

 

Yes, but my resolve is stiffened by the 1905 Kings Meadow photo and @Chrisbr's withdrawal dates.

[Mikkel]

7 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

 

 

Proper brakes.

 

[Schooner]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Proper brakes.

...and lever. And ends. And neighbours. And and and... :)

 

Happy New Year wagon-botherers all! Here's to all the good things 2023 brought, and to much more of the same in the year to come. Chin chin!

[Mol_PMB]

On 01/01/2024 at 03:10, Schooner said:

Happy New Year wagon-botherers all! Here's to all the good things 2023 brought, and to much more of the same in the year to come. Chin chin!

 

Being a fully certified* and card-carrying wagon-botherer myself, I can't quite believe I've only really discovered this thread today. My excuse was that the mention of 4mm put me off, whereas much of it is fascinating prototype stuff. I clearly have a lot of catching-up to do!

Although I model the 1960s, the Manchester Ship Canal was notably frugal and almost all of their wagons were bought second-hand after being withdrawn from main line use. Hence a lot of them were of pre-grouping origin. I may in due course have some questions for the panel, but I'll do some more reading first...

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

*or should that be certifiable?

[Mol_PMB]

Possibly on topic, have you had the photos in Glover's archive yet?

They are listed here, and large versions can be downloaded individually for free:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/documents/aa110015395#archive-block

Apologies if they've been covered already.

 

Not all have railway interest but some are rather nice and might even contain the odd D299?

Ones that I'd noted to be of railway interest are Neg numbers:

577, 578, 579, 580, 823, 825, 843, 1121, 1122, 1158, 1159, 1160, 1165, 1167, 1700, 1701, 1702, 1724.

This is 578, I thought I'd scored a D299 in the distance here but Neg 580 shows it's a D351:

This is 1165, some nice rakes of wagons either side:

This is 1167:

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Possibly on topic, have you had the photos in Glover's archive yet?

 

There was a bit of a look about two years ago:

but well worth another look!

 

[Mol_PMB]

Ahh, OK, sorry for the duplication then.

Here are a few other photos that I found online a couple of years back, but can no longer find. I downloaded relatively poor-quality copies of about 70, but have just picked a few with pre-grouping wagon interest here.

All are in Manchester (Salford) Docks.

Mol

 

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Ahh, OK, sorry for the duplication then.

Here are a few other photos that I found online a couple of years back, but can no longer find. I downloaded relatively poor-quality copies of about 70, but have just picked a few with pre-grouping wagon interest here.

All are in Manchester (Salford) Docks.

 

No need to apologise - the ones you're picking out are different. I especially like the banana boat ones with the LNWR banana vans and the labour-intensive transhipment. Last time I went to the National Archives, I took a ham sandwich and a banana in an air-tight clip-box for my lunch - the sandwich was distinctly banana-flavoured by the time I came to eat it so I do wonder what the intensity of the aroma was by the time these men came off-shift!

 

21 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

This L&YR wagon is in the pre-1903 livery of unpainted or varnished wood with black ironwork and is obviously fresh out of the works - unlike its compatriot on the left. So that must date the photo to no later than 1903? The MSC 2-plank wagon is also I suppose grey with shaded lettering. The 5-plank wagon in one of the banana photos is rather darker-looking:

 

29 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

In fact that wagon does look rather D299-ish. Is there any record of the MSC's wagon purchases?

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No need to apologise - the ones you're picking out are different. I especially like the banana boat ones with the LNWR banana vans and the labour-intensive transhipment. Last time I went to the National Archives, I took a ham sandwich and a banana in an air-tight clip-box for my lunch - the sandwich was distinctly banana-flavoured by the time I came to eat it so I do wonder what the intensity of the aroma was by the time these men came off-shift!

 

 

This L&YR wagon is in the pre-1903 livery of unpainted or varnished wood with black ironwork and is obviously fresh out of the works - unlike its compatriot on the left. So that must date the photo to no later than 1903? The MSC 2-plank wagon is also I suppose grey with shaded lettering. The 5-plank wagon in one of the banana photos is rather darker-looking:

 

 

In fact that wagon does look rather D299-ish. Is there any record of the MSC's wagon purchases?

 

For normal 'traffic' vehicles, the MSC numbered these from 1 upwards in the order of acquisition, eventually reaching just over 6700. Once they were into the thousands, the first digit is a reasonable indication of the decade the wagon was purchased in, i.e. 2xxx were mostly acquired in the 1920s and 5xxx in the 1950s. That isn't a rule through.

In the 1890s, the MSC adopted 400 wagons used for constuction of the canal (less than 10% of the total) and these were mostly conventional 4-wheel opens with dumb buffers, and many ended up with the Resident Engineers Department later. Also in the 1890s the MSC purchased 232 new wagons from Ashburys, as well as some second-hand vehicles. All these 1890s wagons had numbers less than 1000, the highest recorded was 823.

Here's an early dumb-buffered example:

And one with spring buffers which look crudely grafted on - is this a conversion of a dumb-buffered wagon?

 

After November 1899, the MSC only purchased used wagons, and often from a wagon dealer rather than direct from the previous owner (examples: Bolton Wagon Company, The Rolling Stock Company of Darlington.) There is little available information on the MSC's used wagon purchases, though I think they were all recorded and the late Don Thorpe must have had access to the records when he wrote his book on the MSC Railways because he quotes specific details such as dates, prices and wagon numbers for some of the more interesting wagon types. Otherwise, in a fair number of cases it's possible to work out an MSC wagon's origins by comparing it to known types from the main-line companies.

 

The vast majority of the MSC fleet were what British Railways would have called 'High', i.e.  5 plank opens with side doors and no end doors. In some cases when Highs were unavailable, they bought Minerals, cut them down to 5 planks, sealed the end doors and re-arranged the fastenings on the side doors, to create Highs.

It is entirely plausible that they acquired Midland D299s being withdrawn by the LMS in the 1920s, indeed considering how many of them there were it would be surprising if the MSC didn't have any. But I imagine the photo with the bananas is much earlier than that, banana traffic into Manchester didn't last long so it's probably 1900ish along with the rest of that batch of photos. The vehicle looks new or at least newly-refurbished. This is an interesting mystery, a D299 would be an 'easy win' for an MSC wagon model. Most but not all MSC opens had diagonal strapping. But bear with me, once I've posted this I'll have a look for something in the back of my mind...

 

Other types of wagon used by the MSC for traffic purposes were mostly bolsters (single, twin, double and bogie of various types).

A smaller number but wider variety of vehicles were used for engineering purposes by the Resident Engineers Department who were responsible for maintaining the ship canal and its equipment and infrastucture, as well as the railway itself. They were often marked R.E.D. as well as being painted red to distinguish them (as were their dedicated locos).

 

Mol

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Now, those who appreciate a D299 might want to look away now just in case this gruesome photo is a little too familiar.

This image is fairly well-known (to me at least) depicting an incident in 1925:

But a view from the other side also exists; sadly I only have this rather grotty version:

Could this have been a D299?

The number in the 1000s would indicate that the MSC had bought it in the first decade of the 1900s, which would be consistent with this early 1900s photo and a new-looking D299-ish vehicle that we were looking at before:

 

Oh, and can you identify wagon 504 as well?

 

Cheers,

Mol

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Could this have been a D299?

 

Yes, I believe so. The characteristic J-shape of the side knee washer plate, curving towards the middle of the wagon at the bottom; the pattern of bolts on the corner plates; the short brake lever; and what look very like 8A axleboxes - i.e. a wagon built no later than 1889. Also 8-ton capacity. The tare of 4-14-0 is perhaps a little on the light side - 5.0 to 5.2 more typical in Midland service.

 

34 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

The number in the 1000s would indicate that the MSC had bought it in the first decade of the 1900s, which would be consistent with this early 1900s photo and a new-looking D299-ish vehicle that we were looking at before:

 

Between 1905 and 1916, the Midland sold just over 6,000 old 8-ton wagons (presumably mostly D299) to John F. Wake of Darlington, up to about 1912 in partnership with R.Y. Pickering & Co. of Glasgow and after that with Ernest E. Cornforth of Stoke-on-Trent. So it's probable that the MSC obtained its wagons via one of these dealers.

 

The 4-plank wagon has a rather distinctive cross marking but not one I immediatel recognise. The oval plate is, I suppose, an owner's plate. The buffer dangling by a thread looks like one of the self-contained types, so this might be a conversion from dumb buffer but there's no sign of a diamond-shaped 'reconstructed' plate. 

 

Does that chalk mark really say Reading?